Talk:Zamorak

Edits
Just to let everyone know, I did some edits to this article. I added the vestment items into the article as items affiliated with Zamorak since, well.. They are.. But they appear to have been omitted. Hope that's okay. JadeTora 07:35, 11 November 2008 (UTC) Jade

Decided to clean it up a little so I gave the Vestments a little separate part to the rest. Looks neater that way. JadeTora 07:39, 11 November 2008 (UTC) Jade

He is not a villain but rather a god that defies classifiction.(dienity defies classifaction.
 * Why? JalYt-Xil-Vimescarrot  09:18, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Of course hes a villain, and a villain is evil. Zamorak is evil. The Evil Dude 13:19 25 February 2007 (UTC)

However as seen in the God Letters he is not the God of pure evil. Just chaos

Zamorak is a God of evil. This is stated by several NPCs in RS, and I think he even admits he's evil in one of the God Letters (not completely sure about the God Letters bit). Telos 08:41, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Zamorak is a god of chaos. He is misunderstood and misinterpreted across Gielinor, and yes, many (Saradominist) NPCs are likely to believe he is evil. However, NPCs are just in-game people, and liable to take their own spin on things. Dr.Professor

How much is full rune zammy now, I heard the priced droped..`=O-- 21:06, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Whatever happened to the old pic? the new one looks like a weird imp

This is the only image that I know of. Zeldafanjtl 04:51, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

The image got updated. --

Mortal Zamorak
It says that Zamorak was once a human, but how could he be, if in the "History of RuneScape" section of the RuneScape Manual, it says he was one of the gods who created Gielinor? 00:19, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Zamorak was a Majharrat (spelling?), not a human. Guthix created Gielinor. 00:29, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The History of RuneScape guide is very vague and innacurate. It's meant to be what is taught to the children of RuneScape, but because alot of RuneScape history is not common knowledge anymore, it's not very accurate. It gives a disclaimer at the top of the article. Morian Smith 01:20, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Back in my time (a half of a decade ago), people assumed that Guthix shaped the world to his liking then went to sleep, Saradomin and Zamorak then came around and then shaped the world as they liked it felinoel ~ (Talk) 19:48, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I dont really know how to use this, but like theres now a giant golden zamorak statue outside the choas temple near the wildy border!

...Zamorak is the God of Chaos, why else would you find his statue in a Chaos Temple. I don't think I would be too surprised if I found a statue of Saradomin on Entrana.

Charlegme 11:48, June 29, 2011 (UTC)

The Story
I'll lay this down for y'all. Basically what happened was that in the First Age, Guthix came to Gielinor and found it was more-or-less blank (the jury is out on whether races like the Dragonkin or TzHaar were already there), and shaped it to his liking. Then, he went to sleep for several thousand years, and the First Age ended. In the early Second Age, gods like Zaros, Saradomin, Bandos, Armadyl and those in the Desert Pantheon (again, it's not known if Seren was already in RuneScape, as Elves were present in the First Age; See Meeting History), and the god Icthlarin, son of Tumeken brought the race called the Mahjarrat into RuneScape from their realm of Freneskae, but they chose to break away from Icthlarin because of his peaceful ways and followed the more chaotic (but not to say evil) Zaros.

Before long, however, one particularly hateful and warlike Mahjarrat, called Zamorak, wanted rid of Zaros so he could replace him and be worshipped. This led to his rebellion with several followers including his fellow Mahjarrat Hazeel, a human follower called Viggora and the Vampyre Lord Lowerniel Vergidiyad Drakan and several others. They managed to steal the Staff of Armadyl and the weakest Mahjarrat, Lucien, placed a spell on it so Zaros could not detect it. Zamorak ambushed him and impaled him on the staff. Zaros, becoming angry, thrust himself at Zamorak and impaled him aswell. Zaros' powers were drained from him and through the staff, now embedded in Zamorak's chest, and into the Mahjarrat. Zamorak then rose to become the god of chaos and this initiated the God Wars and the Third Age which we should all know a little about by now.

As for Saradomin, well, opinion is divided, but some say Armadyl gave his godly powers to Saradomin when he fled Gielinor (after the war, following the extinction of the Aviantese. When the God Wars was at its most violent, Guthix was woken up by the sound of the fighting, and came to the surface. He saw the battle-scarred land and the destruction the gods had caused, and he became angry. He commanded the gods to stop, and they did so. He then established the Edicts of Guthix before departing underground again, stopping briefly in a cave to rest. He thought about his beautiful world, destroyed by the carnage, and he wept. Then, he went back into the planet's core and fell to sleep once again. The Guthixian Edicts dictate that none of the gods can interfere with their followers directly, and they can't fight with eachother any more. However, there are Zamorakian and Saradominist conspirators working to break these rules; See Legacy of Seergaze. That's about all there is to it. There's stuff with Bandos and the Goblins, but that's another storyline altogether, and one for another time. Hope this helps everyone.

Asparagoose  Asparagoose 00:06, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually Lucien is not the weakest Mahjarrat (he's probably the strongest).89.212.143.38 11:35, July 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * No, he is the weakest. The reason he's so strong in While Guthix Sleeps is because he has the Staff of Armadyl, a godweapon. He is physically the weakest, described by Viggora as a weakling who "struggled to lift a sword", and he's level like 14 in Temple of Ikov. [[File:Silver sickle.png‎‎]] Asparagoose   11:47, July 2, 2010 (UTC)

Image
The image of Zamorak from the God letters was pretty cool looking, why aren't you guys using that picture here as well as the modern look for Zamorak? felinoel ~ (Talk) 19:51, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I see, so if I were to just add this old version of Zamorak no one would mind? felinoel ~ (Talk) 05:55, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You mean the one from the pre-RS2 God Letters? I think that would be fine, I don't see why not.

Wikipedia links?
Why is there a link to the Wikipedia article on Hades? I know Zamorak is associated with demons, but what does that have to do with Hades? Also, I don't think the link to chaos is needed either. 08:13, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to remove the Wikipedia link to Hades, unless anyone has any reasonable objections. 06:21, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm fine with that, but the link to Chaos makes sense since Zamorak is the god of Chaos.Till Hell Freezes Over 20:39, February 10, 2012 (UTC)

Zamarak: God of chaos and good? Perhaps?
Does Zammy have any protagonist followers? After all, he isn't evil, per se. Seeing how he kill Zaros, he must have something against evil as a lifestyle? Anyone? --76.127.155.176 23:18, September 22, 2009 (UTC)
 * Just because you kill a bad guy (assuming Zaros is evil) doesn't make you a good guy. Zamorak did it because he wanted to be a god. WWTDD? 23:40, September 22, 2009 (UTC)
 * Zaros was not evil. It's a common misconception that he was the god of evil, but it's not the case. And as for your question, no, Zamorak is not evil. Nor is Saradomin good. They're the gods of Chaos and Order, they just represent two extremes on each side of the spectrum. And on your notes about protagonists, it depends on what you class as a protagonist. Some characters who follow him are benevolent, even helpful to the player, but they're still kind of nasty and you get the feeling that they don't like you. If I had to pick an example for this, then I'd go with Malignus Mortifer. He's angry, testy and mean, but still eventually helps you. Sort of.
 * Counteracted easily by the Zamorak Mage and Dark Mage, both of whom seem at least ambivelent, if not friendly.Till Hell Freezes Over 03:38, February 7, 2012 (UTC)

Asparagoose  20:00, September 23, 2009 (GMT)

That doesn't make him good? Of course he's good! He's the god of war and pain and death and evil. He's the one that gave you all your quests! All hail lord Zamorak!!!

Jango 122333 23:48, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

Just gonna put this out there.... 01:31, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

Pots of zomorok
Pots with the symbol of zomorak! What is zomorak? An item, or whateverelse? Yuppers, humping with dot but point is clear, fix it up!

Anon added a piece of trivia suggesting a poll that Zamorak ranked least out of 6 gods in a poll (not yet found in poll database). However, a poll from Jul 2010 suggests otherwise. http://poll.runescape.com/a=254/results.ws?id=473 This poll ranks him fourth above Armadyl and Bandos (as well as many minor deities). Does anyone know if a recent poll of this nature did occur? 30percent 03:16, October 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * Was it really neccessary to mock the person who mispelt that? Couldn't you have just edited it yourself?Till Hell Freezes Over 19:46, February 10, 2012 (UTC)

Removal of Bias
Can we try to go through this article and remove all bias, please? All of the most famous actions of "evil" committed by Zamorak have NPCs willing to argue against them (the first paragraph has information on the burning of the Wizard's Tower, completely leaving out Malignus Mortifer's version of events), and the Zamorak Mage and Dark Mage of the Abyss are two of the most useful NPCs in the game. I think players deserve, at the very least, to receive an accurate and informative view of Zamorak, rather than a Saradominist viewpoint. Even if the game itself is biased towards Saradomin. Till Hell Freezes Over 03:34, February 7, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with the Removal of Bias but this isn't about Zamorak's followers like the ones you mentioned, it's about Zamorak and i'm pretty sure that even Zamorak's followers do very evil things anyway. 02:07, April 18, 2013 (UTC)

Zamorak: think
Why do people think he's evil? Chaos isn't evil itself, thought it  almost always leads to evil. Zamorak can be good, can't he? Take a few minutes to think about it. BaconRanger 19:56, February 22, 2012 (UTC)BaconRanger


 * Well Zamorak isn't evil, he is a rebel to be honest. Most mahjarrat look up to Zamorak as a great hero for standing up to Zaros, so......he is evil to Saradomin, but really just causes chaos, that's it. Also, Saradomin accuses Zamorak of being evil, but Saradomin is a hipocrite, but that's in my opinion and not for this artical. To sum up, he isn't evil, just likes chaos. JeffGC64 (talk) 06:10, September 1, 2012 (UTC)JeffGC64


 * Yayyy, Moral Nihilism lecture time! First off, assuming Zamorak is evil isn't fair to him, because although he's shown a very chaotic attitude in the past, we havae nothing to support the idea that he's actually evil. Even his statements in the God Letters show nothing of his perspective, because those are non-canon and can't be used to indicate anything.
 * Second, evil is based entirely upon perspective. Zamorak burnt that town. That seems wrong, yes? But it spurred the citizens into action, causing them to come together, to save their home from disaster, to save each other, etc. So is that wrong? Especially considering he did that with that in mind?
 * From a Saradominist's perspective, where Chaos is basically synonomous with Evil (their God is the God of Order, according to static allignments which are also pretty inaccurate but whatever), Zamorak is definitely evil. That's why you keep hearing about how evil he is, about how he eats babies and drinks the tears of widdows and widdowers, and about how all his statues are of 'the evil god Zamorak,' etc. But from an unbiased standpoint, it's a lot less clear. Until we meet him, which we probably will in a few months (no source so don't quote me on this), we have no accurate way of determining his allignment according to our own sensibilities. Even then, we'll probably have different opinions because your sensibilities may be much different than mine. Snowskeeper---Till Hell Freezes Over. (talk) 18:01, June 4, 2013 (UTC)


 * Okay I'm gonna kill someone and burn their home. It's not necessarily evil because I stopped them from      annoying their neighbours and I also got the police to work. Twist it and turn it because you're bored,          Zamorak is evil, if there is order there never is injustice, because if there is injustice there is no order.


 * Well apparently he is. The examination of the Zamorak statue in the Witch's House says he's evil, the examination of the Varrockian Chaos Altar basically says the same... and a number of people said that examination = lore. Based on that conclusion I added Evil to Zamorak's philosophy on this page. I don't see what the problem is. 18:12, June 4, 2013 (UTC)


 * Remember that, until now, the player has been railroaded along the path of either Saradominist, Guthixian or Armadylian beliefs; the followers of all three gods believe that Zamorak is evil. Bandos is arguably far more amoral, to the point where he causes his own forces to fight each other for his own amusement; there are no descriptions of Bandos as evil in-game.
 * The examine texts are just as biased as the Saradominist NPCs, and cannot be taken at face-value. Wait until we actually meet Zamorak instead of making the assumption that everything the NPCs say and the player-character thinks is automatically true. His rational followers--IE, the Dagon-Hai in the Chaos Tunnels, Maliginus Mortefer (Spelling is probably wrong there), Moldark, etc. seem to believe he isn't evil, and as such we can't make that assumption. Snowskeeper---Till Hell Freezes Over. (talk) 18:18, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * I understand, but that is not the point made. Nothing was said about the perspectives of other NPCs mattering when it came to our own character's examination, which, apparently, besides being lore, is also objective. 18:24, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * That was certainly true of those 'cute' 'pets' in the Gnome storyline, huh?
 * The examination is the player character's own observations about the environment. They are often inaccurate, foolish, snarky or downright sarcastic. I don't agree that they're lore, and they're certainly not objective. Snowskeeper---Till Hell Freezes Over. (talk) 18:27, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * I could not agree more, nevertheless. It was decided, I did not win the discussion as you can see.. :( Hence, RSwikia should now implement that decision on all it's pages. Unless of course we start deciding that each and every page will have its own rules... I could eb wrong on that one too, but that seems just silly. 18:54, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

He still is a Mahjarrat
Hello, can't the "Former Mahjarrat" part be removed? Just because he became a God, doesn't mean his race would change. 08:30, August 15, 2013 (UTC)

I agree, gods usually take on their natural form (the form they were in when they ascended to godhood). e.g Saradomin looks much like a human, only difference is his blue tinted skin. So yeah, I agree with you, remove it if you like. 08:36, August 15, 2013 (UTC)

Zamorak is not the god of power
It has been confirmed in a few above the lore podcasts by Mod Osborn that zamorak is not the god of power, but he would like to think so. If he were the god of power, he would be the most powerful god there is. He is the god of chaos. The only way his godliness is associated with power is his philosiphy that power comes through chaos. He is not actuly the god of power. Green Mage48 (talk) 06:41, September 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * Aye. Fairly sure Zaros would be the god of power, being affiliated with control and all that. 06:52, September 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * But Guthix was still more powerful. 07:14, September 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * Power is not the same as Contro or Fate. Power isn't the same as Destruction or Chaos either, but Chaos and Destruction also aren't synonyms. They are just words that the gods use to describe their philosophy. What Moldark says can be seen as Power... to say it "negatively" they're just PR-words. They are not descriptions of the real objective world. 10:43, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

Well why is he being called the god of power on the wiki if he is not the god of power, rather the god of power through chaos. Every god has the teachings of power through something; ie Armadyl, power through justice. In fact Bandos has more right to this title if it must be given since he is all about the strongest surviving. This becomes even more proven after the battle of Lumbridge, Saradomin does not have power over power, yet he defeated him...

Green Mage48 (talk) 05:26, October 4, 2013 (UTC)


 * Because when we examined him, that was what it said, he is power. Plus, giving him the aligment power doesn't mean he would be the strongest. 11:29, October 4, 2013 (UTC)

Well, no fucking duh. I'm the god of power. All bow down to me! 11:39, October 4, 2013 (UTC)

Godhood Tier?
Since Saradomin gained half a Tier (from 3 to 2.5) does this mean Zamorak lost half a Tier? Is he now 3.5? Or did the power Saradomin gained come entirely from the Crater and not from Zamorak at all? 04ismailjj6 (talk) 22:03, October 4, 2013 (UTC)

Also: There are 5 Elder God(desse)s; 12 Elder Artefacts; 20 Younger Gods; and an unknown amount of Fractions of gods. You can become a god by killing one (which could give no netto loss or gain in the amount of gods); by mere exposure to elder artefacts. Once you are a god you can pass around elder artefacts and have a whole family become gods, or just do it step by step. Also... I don't think there are 'half' tiers or even decimal tiers. The whole point of that Mod Edam quote (where gods can be more effective than their tier suggests) is to show them as not too rigid, giving each god an even more defined tier number seems to me to be heading in an odd direction. I don't think Mod Mark really meant to say that he's now tier 2.5, but rather meant it as, he's not to be considered tier 2, although he did became more powerful, he's still tier 2. The lower desert gods are also more powerful than the Avatars, but this is not expressed in tiers and a half or even more detailed. 09:24, October 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * It is unknown weather he lost his power, or he remained the same, or also gained some (even if he lost.) Hopefully Mod Mark would explain more seeing is explained Saradomin 22:07, October 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * No it doesn't necessarily mean that. Zaros somehow dropped tier and Zamorak ended up at tier 3. Bandos dropped a tier... but the player hasn't been given that divine energy... it's just lost.


 * Zaros dropped a tier because he abandoned his body, not because Zamorak literally stabbed Zaros in the back with the Staff of Armadyl.  09:47, October 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * And if he didn't drop his body, he would've died. And even then.. Zamorak still became a god, achieved a certain tier, with Zaros not even a tier down. Maybe.. godhood tiers are like exp curves: the closer you are to Elder God status, the more divine energy you have. 200 divine energy is a lot if you're not a god (83 for level 2 in a skill), while it's not a lot if you're already an elder god (could be like maing one item in a skill). 10:14, October 5, 2013 (UTC)


 * IT is unknown if Zamorak dropped or gained, Zaros dropped, only due for him losing his body. I doubt Zamorak did, but it is unknown if he remained, or also gained some. Bandos drop because he uses a lot of power to cheat the Edicts doesn't mean we the player are suppose to gain some of his power. Over all it is unknown still. 10:21, October 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * I did not dispute that at all :( I said that if Zaros did not leave his body (and thereby making himself drop a tier) he would certainly have been killed and not even have a tier to talk about. Bandos put a lot of his divine energy in making an avatar (which is not cheating, because those tier 7 things were all 'allowed' by Guthix). He dropped in tier after that avatar was killed/destroyed. The avatar was within his power, yet a seprate being. This has been confirmed too, in Q&As or other lore outlets :3 10:46, October 5, 2013 (UTC)

Human Sized
I was thinking, and checking, should we really call this "human" sized? Maybe mortal Sized would be better, The size he is in isn't human, more like, his own race, but a bit bigger. 10:00, October 19, 2013 (UTC)

Why comment on the size?? Wny not say: BoL and normal. 10:50, October 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well for all we know his BoL size is his normal size, and he shrinks down to interact with mortals. Both Saradomin and Zamorak were large when they first teleported in. Also Guthix was giant too and why would he sleep in his non-normal form?. 04ismailjj6 (talk) 10:55, October 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * To comment on both of you. Gods have the power to change their size. Their original size, are standard, pretty much to what they were when mortal, and then they can change to giant if they please. Guthix picked his size, that was bigger than others, due for his tier (if i am correct that it was stated) and remained that why for unknown reason. So, it's better off giving better title to it, that will not lead to a misunderstanding state. Their Normal size is what they were as mortal, as I stated again, Zamorak seemed in his normal size, but a bit bigger, so it is standard. Saradomin was in a normal size in the death of chivarly quest. 11:04, October 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * Can you link to the source for Guthix being larger due to his tier? It makes sense but without a source it;s just some cool speculation. As to Zamorak's smaller form being larger than a human, that's probably because he was a Mahjarrat before he ascended, and they're taller than humans at 8-9 feet on average. 04ismailjj6 (talk) 11:33, October 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * It was in an FAQ, so that source is long gone. And you just proved my point their their size are from race, only different, Saradomin wanna be bad ass, so he copies. Though, idk what bandos it. So Zamorak normal size is what we saw it the missing presumed death maybe. 11:39, October 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * Saradomin copies what? I don;t understand what you're talking about. The god's smaller form is essentially their god form but at the same scales as their mortal body so they can interact with non-gods. Zamorak appears taller than a human because as a mahjarrat he was. Bandos was some kind of Ogre before he ascended so he appears similarly huge in smaller form. Personally, I think the more powerful a being is, the larger it becomes. The elder gods were large enough to creat entire planets with their hands and Guthix appears larger than Saradomin and Zamorak were at the BoL.04ismailjj6 (talk) 13:17, October 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * We're in agreement then that it's not human size, it's their standard normal size, well for some of them. And by Saradomin copying, i mean, in how he choses his size to be the same as other gods in the quest missing presumed death. And again, I KNOW Zamorak is the size of a mahj, what i mean he appeared a bit taller in the quest. So we are done here, great agreement and talk. 14:28, October 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * What? The fact that they're smaller forms aren't human sized was never in dispute. My point was that their BoL forms i.e. their giant forms, are their normal God forms and they shrink down to their smaller forms only to interact with mortals or mortal sized objects and buildings. 04ismailjj6 (talk) 14:32, October 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * I think Osborne said that the degree to which they can... inflate themselves is based on their tier. Being a god in not normal by any standard, I would attest. Having a normal size as a god seems to me to be a statement that requires muh more knowledge about the gods we can currently claim we have. Their mortal form may be their default size, but I think it's more to do with the perspective they're used to and the practicality of their stature than anything else :3  11:00, October 22, 2013 (UTC)