RuneScape:Requests for deletion/Template:Hasdialogue

Template:Hasdialogue
Notice - Please do not use RS:UCS in this, as it has no bearing on the copyright issue. 22:06, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Reason - I am quite aware of the likely heated discussion that will ensue because of this. But, based on Forum:Dialogue pages and Forum:Links in Update pages, all Dialogue pages on this wiki violate Jagex's copyrights. I'd like to make it clear that this RfD is not just for this template, but for all Dialogue pages. I'd also like to say that I am neutral on the deletion of these pages, and I am just bringing this up so we can have a discussion about it. 22:05, April 21, 2010 (UTC)

Keep - Per all. --Coolnesse 23:41, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Changed to below.

Keep for now - Per Inelcirc. If Wikia/Jagex has a problem with it, THEN we delete. --Coolnesse 04:09, April 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't see what UCS has to do with this. It's a copyright violation, and we could get shut down. 22:30, April 21, 2010 (UTC)

Keep - Forum:Archive7. Also, if we were afraid of being shutdown, Jagex wouldn't have added us to the Silver list. We have had those pages for awhile now and don't act like this one thing would shut us down. Also, Jagex has stated many times that any content used from their game must show/say it's the property of Jagex in one form or another. This is said in multiple areas across the Wiki. 22:41, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * "Also, if we were afraid of being shutdown, Jagex wouldn't have added us to the Silver list." Interesting point, but you suggest that Jagex looked through all the major wiki sections, which is highly unlikely.--Agamemnus 17:23, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

Keep - Interestingly enough, the reason for keeping this is exactly the same as the reason for keeping the RSMV, yet that discussion has wrongly been shut down: In the game, the dialogue provides a form of entertainment or amusement and adds to the enjoyment of the game. In this wiki, the dialogue provides information on the game.--Agamemnus 02:47, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

Keep - But possibly consult with Jagex. It seems possible to me that under British copyright law the dialogues fall under permitted use, as long as sufficient acknowledgment is made, as the dialogue pages do. If there is sufficient concern that there may be a copyright problem, consulting Jagex for its opinion or its permission seems reasonable. Inelcirc 13:56, April 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Note: the copyright law that applies is primarily US copyright law, because (I believe) Wikia servers are located in the US.--Agamemnus 17:21, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

Keep - RS:G & RS:UCS 07:58, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Rename to   then delete all content associated with this template. Seriously, everything that uses this template is a pure and simple copyright violation, as it doesn't even fit the most raw definition of fair use at all. It isn't just that Jagex may shut us down here, but it is also unethical. There is zero creativity in coming up with these pages, which by definition are a straight copy from the game. There is no possible way that under either UK or American law that keeping these pages could possibly be legal.

BTW, the reasons for keeping images from the RSMV are not the same here. If you want to put an interesting dialog between a couple of characters or between a character and a player as a fair use quote, that is one thing and certainly permitted. If there is some particular humor or some point that is being illustrated elsewhere into more depth (original prose to accompany that dialog in the form of an article about the dialog) and that dialog is merely an example of trying to demonstrate that point, that is fair use and certainly permitted. A completely separate page that is just dialog, only dialog, and with the exception of some minor wiki markup is copied directly from the game.... that is illegal. The same would be true of images from the RSMV if we plastered images from that all over this wiki as well without regards to how those images are used. Well, perhaps that is the same as the RSMV issue in a sense but those protesting the RSMV images are arguing against any usage of any kind at all. We don't have to go that far, but otherwise all of these dialog pages must be speedily deleted. --Robert Horning 20:12, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

Shutdown this discussion - This has been exhaustively discussed on the Yew Grove and consensus was basically achieved; restarting the discussion here is just going to delay the decision unnecessarily or unfairly prevent action. We can't be expected to reiterate the extremely long, detailed and at times heated legal discussions that happened there. It's not something we need to put the community through again. Let's just continue at Forum:Dialogue pages. 23:50, April 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd rather continue here. This is a discussion for deletion, that is a discussion for improving it. --Coolnesse 01:10, April 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * If it's our decision to keep the discussion here, then I must insist that this doesn't follow our normal format for voting on articles. This will not be a popularity contest, where a majority of "keeps" means inaction.  A legal issue has been identified, and to my knowledge hasn't been refuted.  Robert has gone to great lengths to explain this to the community.  Simply saying "per RS:G" isn't good enough.  RS:G does not give us license to break copyright law, and is simply not a good enough reason to keep these articles.  Further, saying "Jagex probably wouldn't try to shut us down" isn't a good reason to continue illegal activity on the wiki.  Therefore I insist that this comes down to legal arguments or otherwise sound arguments.  Plus, don't be surprised if we simply refer you to places where this has already been discussed in depth.   02:59, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

Delete - Per Robbie H. 01:12, April 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * ^lol -- 01:14, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

Delete - Per Liquid helm. -- 01:14, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

Delete - I see no legal way of presenting this content and will adamantly insist they be deleted until we happen to find such a legal way. 03:01, April 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't get why we can't just keep it now, until 'legal people' decide whether we can keep it or not. --Coolnesse 04:13, April 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * The discussions cited have plenty of arguments from legal savvy people saying they should go. If you want to foot the bill for an actual lawyer, go ahead, but until then we have to go on our own, more limited understanding of the law.  Luckily, the law is pretty clear in this case.  Dialogue pages are absolutely not protected under the fair use provisions of copyright law.  What you're asking at this point is whether we can just ignore the issue until Jagex pays a lawyer to demand we take the content down.  That's not the kind of environment I (for one) want on this Wiki.   05:01, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

Keep - Jagex also visits this wiki (well, they see it), and I'm very sure they're aware of those pages! So if it would have been copyright violation, they would have told us to delete it long ago. As we're a fansite, and we won't use those pages for commercial purposes, Jagex really doesn't bother (this is what I think). Really, Jagex/Wikia would have notified the wiki. Mark ( talk ) 18:21, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Now that we are somewhat affiliated with Jagex, do you think we could get an answer about our dialogue pages? We run the risk of alerting them to such pages, if they do not already know that they exist. I think that if we sent them a letter, or used whatever connections we have with them now, to ask if they are legal, we would clear up any problems. Of course, as Robert said, even if they let us use them in our wiki, their permission would likely not be compatible with the CC-BY-SA license. I'm wondering if someone (possibly Robert, who seems to be the most...legally savvy) would be willing to draft a letter to Jagex concerning the dialogue pages, and specifically mentioning the CC-BY-SA conundrum. We'd probably want to post this in the Yew Grove, whether under Forum:Dialogue pages or a new topic, and get consensus to send it through whatever channels of contact we now have with them due to our affiliation. 19:19, April 28, 2010 (UTC)