Talk:Rune Goldberg Machine

Tracking
While tracking might possibly be pointless, and certainly shouldn't be in the main article or on vis wax, I see no harm in actually doing it. If people hadn't tracked the penguins, we could still argue that their rotation was random. IP83.101.44.209 (talk) 11:34, September 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Might just as well keep my own log here; 15 Sept 2014: Fire, Chaos, Body IP83.101.44.209 (talk) 16:04, September 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * 16 Sept 2014: Astral, Air, Blood IP83.101.44.209 (talk) 15:13, September 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * 17 Sept 2014: Death, Water, Cosmic IP83.101.44.209 (talk) 04:19, September 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * 18 Sept 2014: Air, Nature, IP83.101.44.209 (talk) 04:15, September 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * 19 Sept 2014: Blood, Earth, IP83.101.44.209 (talk) 03:54, September 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * 20 Sept 2014: Mind, Nature, Earth IP83.101.44.209 (talk) 04:23, September 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * 21 Sept 2014:, Mind, IP83.101.44.209 (talk) 03:49, September 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * 22 Sept 2014: Law,, Body IP83.101.44.209 (talk) 04:00, September 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * 23 Sept 2014: Body, Chaos, Cosmic IP83.101.44.209 (talk) 03:56, September 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * 24 Sept 2014:, , Mind IP83.101.44.209 (talk) 04:00, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * 25 Sept 2014:, Cosmic, IP83.101.44.209 (talk) 04:09, September 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * 26 Sept 2014: Body,, IP83.101.44.209 (talk) 03:58, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * 27 Sept 2014: Mind, Earth, Water IP83.101.44.209 (talk) 04:17, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * 28 Sept 2014: Earth, Blood, Fire IP83.101.44.209 (talk) 03:47, September 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * 29 Sept 2014: Water, Death, Chaos IP83.101.44.209 (talk) 04:07, September 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * 30 Sept 2014:, , IP83.101.44.209 (talk) 03:52, September 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * 1 Oct 2014: Fire,, Body IP83.101.44.209 (talk) 03:50, October 1, 2014 (UTC)


 * 15 September 2014
 * Slot 1: Fire
 * Slot 2: Air, Law and ?
 * I believe the 3rd one to be chaos (according to someone on forum), and I think it would be a great addidtion to the wikia page.Rsshadow (talk) 11:47, September 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not at this current time. Gather data, try and establish a pattern. If there is one, it will be possible to track the first two slots. If not, I oppose putting the day's details onto the page for the simple reason that, sooner or later, it will cease to be updated daily. 12:03, September 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * We could at least put the best rune for the first slot on the page for the time being. 08:57, September 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * 16 September 2014
 * Slot 1: Astral
 * Slot 2: Air, Body Mud, Nature (mine was Air)
 * My slot 3: Nature
 * I think tracking is a solid idea; whether or not to include the specific slot 2 and 3 per person is debatable, but we may be able to learn something from it (the possible 2nd slots can also be 3rd slots, from my combo). Tracking which runes are yellow and which are red could also be helpful to see why some are one color and some are another - for example, Mind was yellow while Body and Chaos were red for my third slot. Sorator (talk) 01:51, September 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think the colours are how "good" they are. Green - BIS, yellow = "good, but not BIS" and red = "crap match". 01:58, September 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I was wondering if they might also indicate what the best in slot rune is, though. Like, if the best rune was Fire, then the other elemental runes might be yellow while the rest are red, or the combo runes that include fire, or something like that. Didn't seem to be the case for me today, but it's worth keeping track for a bit to see if something might develop of it. Sorator (talk) 02:30, September 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Based on the news post (or was it the Jagex wiki article?) green = best, orange = ">50% of best" and red "<50% of best". IP83.101.44.209 (talk) 04:31, September 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Got a clan mate who had mud as his 2nd slot rune, so something is wrong up there. EDIT: It's air/nature/mud, not air/body/mud. 14:40, September 16, 2014 (UTC)

RSOF topic keeping records: http://services.runescape.com/m=forum/forums.ws?17,18,252,65479172. IP83.101.44.209 (talk) 17:51, September 15, 2014 (UTC)

Thank you! --EvilPuggy (talk) 20:14, September 15, 2014 (UTC)

The RSOF topic listed above has been locked. As far as I can tell this is the currently updated one: http://services.runescape.com/m=forum/forums.ws?75,76,392,65480496 Andrea Grey (talk) 08:22, September 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * "Vis wax fc" seems to be keeping track as well; they put the current combo in the fc title. (That's "vis wax fc", not "vis wax".) Sorator (talk) 03:23, September 19, 2014 (UTC)

Listing
Can this be mentioned on the Rune Goldberg Machine page?
 * 15 September 2014
 * Slot 1: Fire
 * Slot 2: Air, Law or Chaos
 * 16 September 2014
 * Slot 1: Astral
 * Slot 2: Air, Mud or Nature
 * 17 September 2014
 * Slot 1: Death
 * Slot 2: Water, Steam or Mud
 * 18 September 2014
 * Slot 1: Air
 * Slot 2: Fire, Nature or Water
 * 19 September 2014
 * Slot 1: Blood
 * Slot 2: Earth, Mud, or Soul
 * 20 September 2014
 * Slot 1: Mind
 * Slot 2: Nature, Law, or Dust
 * 21 September
 * Slot 1: Steam
 * Slot 2: Water, Mind, or Lava
 * 22 September
 * Slot 1: Law
 * Slot 2: Body, Earth or Mist
 * 23 September
 * Slot 1: Body
 * Slot 2: Chaos, Earth, or Nature
 * 24 September
 * Slot 1: Steam
 * Slot 2: Astral, Body, or Mud
 * 25 September
 * Slot 1: Lava
 * Slot 2: Cosmic, Mind or Steam
 * 26 September
 * Slot 1: Body
 * Slot 2: Steam, Fire or ?
 * 27 September
 * Slot 1: Mind
 * Slot 2: Earth, Lava or Chaos
 * 28 September
 * Slot 1: Earth
 * Slot 2: Astral, Blood, or Law
 * 29 September
 * Slot 1: Water
 * Slot 2: Chaos, Earth, or Death
 * 30 September
 * Slot 1: Dust
 * Slot 2: Steam, Nature or Death
 * 1 October
 * Slot 1: Fire
 * Slot 2: Lava, Mist or Death
 * 2 October
 * Slot 1: Astral
 * Slot 2: Mind, Water, or Fire
 * [3 October
 * Slot 1: Death
 * Slot 2: Cosmic, Astral or Dust
 * 4 October
 * Slot 1: Fire
 * Slot 2: Water, Cosmic or Dust
 * 9 October
 * Slot 1: Nature
 * Slot 2: ?

I have tried to change the table with it, but someone other changed it back without a word mentioning why.86.101.197.98 17:39, October 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * It is already on the talk page; but I presume you meant the actual article: no. Unless we find a pattern that can be turned into a template that auto-updates, the current slots should not be in the article. As you can see from the list above, nobody keeps it up to date any more, and that would make the article outdated almost constantly. IP83.101.44.209 (talk) 17:42, October 9, 2014 (UTC)

Averages
(anyone more adept with maths, or more familiar with the workings of the D&D, please correct/add whatever is required - apologiees, as I'm lacking in both; I just wished to get this discussion going).

With the current prices listed, the average price for a base set of runes is 80,570gp. So unless the slots choose from specific catagories of runes, then the average you'd pay for base price is 241,710.

Even if you get the best setup first try, there is a 0.5% additional rune charge (I'm not sure if the % is always of the base number, or if it is the current charge, as I didn't check). So that'd bring the average minimum to be 242,908.55?

Is there a way to add an average base price to the table, and would it be usefull?

Given that the runes used may vary completely randomly, an average may not be that usefull for regular users, as they may possibly choose not to make wax on days when expensive runes are required (or may make the trade off between less adiquate runes, and fewer wax pellets/blobs).

If somone is using group knowledge to find out the first rune, and has 3 tries at the second one (0.5, 3 times) they then have a choice of 17 possibilities to get the last rune (if it cannot be the same as the rune used in another slot). Even if they took all 17 tries to get the perfect rune (This is a another variable I'm not happy with, there should be some way of working out how many goes it would take, on average, though perhaps more needs to be known about the red/orange/green indicators, first), and all 3 tries to get the second rune (20 in total, adding 10% to the price, if % is based on the base number), then there are still not that many combinations (out of the total number) which would give a loss, compared to the price of wax, at present.

Is there a simple way to have an automatic calculator on the article, to give an expected average (for somone using group information for the first two slots), once more of the contributing factors are known, without it being long and convoluted?

Sorry for the messy thinking - I'll be comming to fill in some of the gaps, once I have tested, if I have time. Thanks for reading. :) 86.144.94.133 11:14, September 18, 2014 (UTC)


 * I've just made this calculator: Calculator:Rune Goldberg Machine, which tries to do this, however it assumes you guesses every rune on the first try. 06:26, September 24, 2014 (UTC)

Amber
So I tried Air, Fire, Earth today and got Green green Amber and 92 Viz Wax. I suppose that "Earth" being amber may mean one of dust/lava/mud would have been green. I would have tested dust if I had thought of it. Rich Farmbrough, 21:14 18 September 2014 (UTC).

Partially correct choices
once you get 1 and 2 correct (green) then you can see how much of a good fit slot 3 is

60% is complete ass - 100% is perfect

i think if we understand how close each rune is to another we can get the correct one in fewer tries

forgotten the exact numbers but today my third was death. 60% w/ air, 80% w/ fire, ~97 w/ soul, ~99 w/ blood. maybe with a lot of examples we can guess the closeness of each rune to each other rune so we can find the correct one in a single try 123.100.116.168 05:33, September 20, 2014 (UTC)

Table
Note: this is for the third slot - so the number is x/40. The other two slots would be x/30.

This will take a while to set up...

Rich Farmbrough, 15:38 23 September 2014 (UTC).

Let's try to fill this up guys 123.100.116.168 08:50, October 4, 2014 (UTC)

Before adding to this table I noticed an inconsistency already. I'll add my notes here:

earth 32, mud 6, smoke 8, steam 0, mind 7, body 9, cosmic 4, chaos 14, nature 40 92.108.202.115 12:26, October 15, 2014 (UTC)

If, for your third slot, nature is 40 then that is the "correct" rune, so enter your values for the other runes under nature across the top. 123.100.116.168 03:34, October 27, 2014 (UTC)


 * I added comments to make the table easier to edit. Rich Farmbrough, 21:53 31  October 2014 (UTC).

I had different results in some case. I think the best substitutes, and the values could change time by time. --86.101.197.98 07:23, November 2, 2014 (UTC)

I also have had different results - this was for Blood. It's not complete Air and death were the first two, and I failed to test or record 3 others.


 * Air --> ??
 * Water --> 11
 * Earth --> 8
 * Fire --> 7
 * Dust --> 16
 * Lava --> 9
 * Mist --> 4
 * Mud --> 5
 * Smoke --> 3
 * Steam --> 14
 * Mind --> 6
 * Body --> 34
 * Cosmic --> 23
 * Chaos --> ??
 * Nature --> ??
 * Law --> ??
 * Death --> ??
 * Astral --> 13
 * Blood --> 40
 * Soul --> 15

Could be dependent on the first two runes. Rich Farmbrough, 00:11 5 November 2014 (UTC).
 * Note:Viz Wax fc seem to make good suggestions for "alternatives" - how do they know?. Rich Farmbrough, 00:14 5 November 2014 (UTC).

Today's results for me:

date=10 Nov 2014
 * Air --> 9
 * Water --> 15
 * Earth --> 39
 * Fire --> 17
 * Dust --> Rune 2
 * Lava --> Didn't test
 * Mist --> 40
 * Mud --> 3
 * Smoke --> 37
 * Steam --> 1
 * Mind --> 34
 * Body --> 2
 * Cosmic --> 4
 * Chaos --> 12
 * Nature --> 5
 * Law --> 15
 * Death --> 16
 * Astral --> Rune 1
 * Blood --> 21
 * Soul --> 22

Rich Farmbrough, 00:27 10 November 2014 (UTC).
 * We have seen every number from 0-40 except 10, 20, 28, 33 - I expect these to turn up eventually. We have never seen the same number twice, in the same set. There is always a 40, so the other 19 numbers are selected form the remaining 40 numbers 0-39 without replacement. (Assumption 1)
 * We know that the alts for today for positions 1 and 2 are
 * Position 1: Astral - Alt Dust (29/30), Mind (21/30)
 * Position 2: Mist - Alt Fire (29/30) ; Mind - alt ?? ; Dust alt - ??
 * But by good luck my third rune today was Mist, and the value for Fire as a replacement was 17/40. This is very different from the ratio for slot 2 (29/30).
 * Therefore we can assume there is no relationship between the replacement values in slots 1 and 2, and slot 3. (Assumption 2)
 * But we also know that the slot 2 replacement values are the same for all players on a given day, for a given rune.
 * Assume that, for a given rune, slot 3 replacement values are the same for all players, and not dependent on slot 2. (Assumption 3)


 * Algorithm for finding slot 3 rune (given 1 & 2 solved and loaded).
 * Choose a rune not slot 1 or 2. Try it.  record your result
 * Take 60 from the result and check today's table for a match that is not your slot 1 or slot 2 result.
 * If there's match try that rune. If not, record and try the next match (if any) to your improved test results.  Repeat until success (Note it so we can check distribution is uniform, and END) or no match
 * Having had no match try all the other runes and add a row to today's table.


 * Example: If you try Fire and get 77 (60 + 17) today it's a good bet that slot 3 is Mist, the same as I had.


 * Another example of using the data, someone got 94 from Astral Earth Nat today: he didn't notice if the Nat gave green traffic lights. I can tell that his correct slot 3 was not Mist. He got at least 24 from Earth and at least 35 from Nat, there's only 6 possible breakdowns (24,40) (25,39) (26,38) (27,37) (28,36) (29,35) (Can't be 30,34 because Earth is not a slot 2 candidate).  From what he said I believe Earth was a Dust replacement, therefore (29,35) is out too, because Fire is given as the best slot 2 replacement for Dust at 29/30, and Earth is cheaper.


 * Rich Farmbrough, 01:25 10 November 2014 (UTC).

What does "Best Rune" do?
What are the benefits of getting the best rune on the list? Also, why did I only get 40 vis wax when the limit is supposed to be 100? And how do you know what is the best rune?

Puretppc (talk) 04:03, September 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Using the best rune will give you all of that slot's viz-wax. Slot 1 is 30 wax, 2 is 30 and 3 is 40.
 * You got 40 because you had the wrong runes, probably in slots 1 and 2.
 * You can tell the best rune because the light goes green when you have the best rune there. The amber light maybe a clue, but we don't know how that works yet.
 * Rich Farmbrough, 15:36 23 September 2014 (UTC).
 * We do, actually. It was either the news post, or the jagex wiki article, but green = 100% in that slot, orange = >50% in that slot, and red is <50% in that slot. Now whether the specific % are related to eachother, that is a different question. IP83.101.44.209 (talk) 15:38, September 23, 2014 (UTC)

Number of Tries and Base Rune Cost
What does the Tries do? If we do more tries does that mean less Vis Wax? Also, how is the Vis Wax formula calculated? And does the Base Rune Cost reset at all?Puretppc (talk) 00:25, September 28, 2014 (UTC) Players can insert runes into the machine to see their value, but for every combination tried, the required amount of runes of each of the three types selected will be increased by 0.5%.


 * The answer is in the article, as quoted above. 00:26, September 28, 2014 (UTC)


 * Incidentally I did 18 tries today, and the extra cost wasn't great. Rich Farmbrough, 00:15 5 November 2014 (UTC).

The Value of a non-Green Rune?
How much of a Vis Wax value could a non-Green Rune have? For instance, does an Astral Rune give more Vis Wax than a Body Rune? Puretppc (talk) 02:16, October 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * The rune that makes a certain slot go green, will give you the max Wax from that category, e.g. 30 for each the first two and 40 for the last slot. Any other rune will give you less than that for that slot. Orange and red are just there to indicate how much worse (orange > 50% of the max value, red below). IP83.101.44.209 (talk) 04:08, October 3, 2014 (UTC)

Logs
"Vis Wax Fc" Friends Chat channel is keeping track the current combo in the fc title.

You can find information also in the regularely updated first post and at the end of the "Vis Wax Fc : Combinations " forum thread.

( Quick find code: 75-76-392-65480496).

Please feel free to update regularly


 * The entry for 25th is most interesting. Mud in slot 1 and mud in slot 2 are different. See also the 23rd and Mist. Rich Farmbrough, 23:05 25 November 2014 (UTC).
 * Three runes are choosen randomly for the second slots. Each chosen rune has its own second best. Two groups of players had reported two different runes (astral or water) as second best for them instead of mud. In the forum it was indicated as mud1 and mud2. I 'm curious whether the same rune could occur three times in the second slots? 86.101.197.98 07:22, November 26, 2014 (UTC)

86.101.197.98 07:12, December 4, 2014 (UTC)

Fee on first try
So when calculating profit or if you already were told the combination and you just enter it, you'd pay the rune cost fee anyways on first try right? So by default it will cost 0.5% more runes. Puretppc (talk) 00:57, October 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes. IP83.101.44.209 (talk) 04:20, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

Second slot guarantees __ Vis Wax
The second slot is random for everyone but it is narrowed down to only three possible outcomes being green. Suppose the runes could be Fire, Water or Earth. If it turns out that Water was not a green out of the 3, what colour would show up on the 2nd slot? Would it be a yellow or red? In other words, using one of the three possible runes on the 2nd slot, how much Vis Wax is guarenteeed? Puretppc (talk) 00:38, October 18, 2014 (UTC)


 * It is choosen the same three rune every day for each player, but only one out of this three is green for a player (randomly) 86.101.197.98 06:38, October 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * It could be anything. Either red or yellow. If you want to choose a different rune instead of the correct green one (because it is rare, expensive, combination rune), you should find a yellow one. But (I think) the yellows could be randomly choosen every day also. 86.101.197.98 06:38, October 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * There are different yellow possibilities, and they guarantee different quantity of Vax. But there should be one yellow which is the second best afther the correct green one. I think this second best is also choosen randomly day by day.86.101.197.98 06:38, October 18, 2014 (UTC)


 * AS far as I can tell, that is correct. However if you have all the information for that day knowing what your first try at slot 2 gave you, you could probably deduce the green rune, form the two remaining.  You could also tell the good substitutes. Rich Farmbrough, 23:08 25  November 2014 (UTC).