RuneScape:Yew Grove

The Yew grove is a page where community members can discuss larger changes to the wiki, such as policy proposals. It serves as a way for anyone to get involved without having to find the relevant discussion page. Messages should be left on this page, not on the talk page.

Topics that should be discussed here include policy proposals and changes, discussion of community processes (such as RS:AOTM), and changes to significant wiki features. In general, anything that the community at large would be interested in can go here. This is not a replacement for RS:VFD, RS:RFA, or talk pages, as this page is specifically for discussion that has a wide impact. __NEWSECTIONLINK__

Wiki logo
Okay, let's have a vote on which Main Page logo to use in quartz format: Image:wiki.png or Image:wiki_wide.png. If you support, you are voting for Image:wiki.png, and if you don't, you're voting for Image:wiki_wide.png. (Am I doing this right, Chia?) 02:58, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I use Monobook, so it doesn't affect me one way or the other, however, I'd definatly have to say that Image:wiki.png looks much neater, and more professional. Sorry, webmaster point of view there... 03:18, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * There is no voting here guys. Monobook uses wiki.png, Quartz skins use wiki_wide.png. End of story, you have no choice. Quartz skins MUST use that logo, it's written into the coding. Christine Talk 03:22, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Could we not change the wiki_wide.png logo then? I mean, it's not like there's no choice, theres gotta be some changes we can make. Even if we can't use the wiki.png logo, use something else. 03:30, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * He's got a point, everyone likes Image:wiki.png better, we could change the image. 04:23, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed, I much prefer Image:wiki.png76.232.1.32 09:07, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I have just created an account and switched to the monobook skin, this is what I have been looking for all along. Why is monobook not the default skin as seen to public users? I personally think that smoke looks disorganized and unprofessional.Tebuddy 09:20, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Smoke? We're talking about quartz skins. 21:03, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Smoke is the name of a Quartz skin. -.- Christine Talk 22:03, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * You think monobook is better than quartz, Tebuddy? I accually disagree (and apparently a lot of other users). But this is a discussion of which is better, Image:wiki.png or Image:wiki_wide.png. 01:15, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The thing is that the Monobook logo has a diferent size than the Quartz skin one, if it was resized, it would look really ugly or small, also, if we made a new one, it may be even worse than the actual one, let's evade problems and let it as it is. 01:28, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * C Teng, learn to read a discussion before adding in a new comment. -.- There is no voting here guys. Monobook uses wiki.png, Quartz skins use wiki_wide.png. End of story, you have no choice. Quartz skins MUST use that logo, it's written into the coding. It doesn't matter which you think is better, the wide one has to be used for quartz because of its size. Christine Talk 01:36, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Even thoguh christine has a point, its written into the coding it can't be changed, Christine could lighten up a bit and be a little less,-how do I put this delicately-, rude., 01:40, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * First of all, yes, I agree, and second of all, I was referring to Nq2h's idea, change wiki wide. That is, assuming the vote is won. 01:46, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Change the image in the smoke (quartz) skin, or change the default skin is what needs to be done. Tebuddy 05:48, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Comment For some reason, there's no way to change the default skin to monobook, only to a different quartz theme. There doesn't seem to be an interface page for it either. On the topic of logos, however, someone will probably need to design a new one for Wiki_wide.png (assuming to decide to change it). Wiki.png can't simply be stretched into the size required for the quartz logo without making it look deformed. If I understand correctly, the last time we needed a new logo, several people just submitted their ideas and they were compared; it seems logical to do the same thing here. Skill 08:45, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think changing the default skin would be a good idea; I'm not sure it can even be done. 12:59, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes it can. -.- Christine Talk 19:19, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Skill is right, we can't use the same logo, perhaps we can submit ideas and choose one, but it would be better if we uploaded them to Imageshack or Photobucket, now we have to wait for the decision of the community 17:13, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Image:New-wiki-wide.png is a logo I made based off the other one in paint.. only took about 10 minutes. Anyone else who wants to make changes or improvements is welcome to, as I have no decent graphics program on this computer. 18:17, 30 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I also made one here, I can add more Runes if you want:http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/3609/runescapewikiaa7.png 18:46, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Ben's is great. I say we use that one. 20:44, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I like that it's adapted from the old logo. I've uploaded a new version under the same name as Ben's in which I removed lines and misplaced pixels created by cropping through airbrushing and just edited some incorrect shading. That can be reverted if need be, but I don't think he'd mind since he said he didn't spend much time on it. Everyone else should keep submitting logos though and we can put it to a vote. <Font face=Sylfaen><font color=RoyalBlue>Christine <Font face=Sylfaen><font color=LimeGreen>Talk 22:41, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It looks great. Does this count as the community decision, or should we put a link at the top of the wiki and have a longer one? 01:26, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I like bens as well.Tebuddy 06:49, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Christine, do you want to go one step further? I thought it be nice to make the number of runes on each side of the title symmetrical...you could easily do this by having one extra above the title, leaving 4 on either side.  That's my only criticism, that it's not symmetrical.
 * Well Endasil, I only spent a few minutes on it. I knew that it'd have to be repositioned eventually but thankfully Ben did it so I didn't have to XD <Font face=Sylfaen><font color=RoyalBlue>Christine <Font face=Sylfaen><font color=LimeGreen>Talk

Flickr 23:32, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I've made it a little more symmetrical now. Compare [[Image:new-wiki-wide.png]] with http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/runescape/images/archive/5/5b/20080131231338%21New-wiki-wide.png 23:26, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * So, are we using it? 17:30, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Unless I see some other comment as to whether we should keep/change it, I'll upload it to the wiki logo on Friday (8 February 2008) 18:38, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Fixed the "p" cut off at the bottom. Skill 18:46, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks you Skill, I didn't even notice it was messed up. 18:51, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I updated the logo earlier today, and haven't gotten a comment yet. I guess everyone likes it enough that they're not ranting. 08:01, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It's awesome! Thanks, Ben. 23:22, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion/question Is it possible to use a series of the logos so that the individual ones match with standard offered skins? I'm guessing the skins are implemented through different css. If it is possible to auto-select from a series then the shadowing effect could be made to match the background colour of each skin. I would be more than happy to recreate the logo into a series with a little help on the coding. Anyone? -- 12:40, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * If you can believe it, no, it's not that simple. The Monaco and Quartz themes have the style information for where to find the image embedded in a style tag in the HTML itself, which overrides anything you could put in the CSS.  What I have done for my sandboxy skin is specify an extra CSS attribute for the logo which sets its visibility to hidden, so it doesn't show up at all.  But I haven't thought of a way to override the name of the image being used.

Item infobox
With the unbalanced trade update, the street price field in the item infobox is probably redundant, given that prices are now unchangeably fixed to those at the Exchange. Does anyone else think it should be removed? Another issue is the inconsistency between articles with regards to whether the GE price is a single value or a price range. There are advantages and disadvantages to each, I think, but either way there should be a consistent standard for all articles. Skill 10:29, 12 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I certainly agree about the street price, that can go. Am I right in thinking that the bot that produces those GE graphs needs a single price rather than a range? Even if that is the case, we can probably display both a single value, and a range calculated from that single value, for those who prefer that. Hurston 11:54, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * At the moment PointyBot only uses single prices. If it finds a price range it ignores it as I haven't coded it to deal with them (yet). Pointy 01:10, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Street price is mostly useless. The only exceptions I see is when some items usually traded in bulk are traded in small amounts, like law runes usually traded at 1k for one law rune. But this is quite rare and could be either put only in the article text, or in a special infobox field that would remain hidden unless it's filled (like the current "seller" field), or, probably best put somewhere in an article about prices in general (a few sentences saying basically "sometimes ppl eager to get small, cheap items, are willing to pay 1-10k to get them quickly in a player-to-player trade" - NB : I saw a guy buying game necklace for 10k...). GE price should be a single value, because when using the GEItem template, you are forced to use a single value anyway, so if we want a consistent standard, it has to be a single value. A calculated range won't work, because Jagex are cheating on the ranges. 12:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Jagex is cheating the ranges? What? Oh, never mind. I agree that getting rid of street ptice makes sense. And also on using a single value on GE price, most people looking will realize that the price is a variable, so it will be plenty useful the way it is.--Degenret01 06:34, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I just mean that the ranges aren't like average price +/- 5% : the prices often can't go under some low value close to the alch price. For instance, last time I checked, rune javelins had an "average" price which was (almost?) the same as the minimum price. 06:39, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree, many infoboxes have street prices that are beyond the trading limit range now. 20:10, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Random Exchange???
I think it get's annoying when you want a random page and it comes up with an Exchange: article. There is an exchange article nearly every item now so there is a high chance of geting one. Is there any way we can remove it from showing up? Or could there be like a category? Cheers, <font color=#FF0000> C <font color=#B22222> hicken <font color=#DC143C> 7  <font colour=#DC143C><Wiki MEETUP> 03:59, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Only way pretty much is to make Exchange: into its own namespace, which would have some other benefits as well. Problem is, that's easier said than done... Skill 04:02, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol I see. Who would be able to do this hard work? Beauracrat, Sysop or a normal user? Chwwrs, [[Image:Kandarincrest.gif|33px]] <font color=#FF0000> C <font color=#B22222> hicken <font color=#DC143C> 7 [[Image:Kandarincrest.gif|33px]] <font colour=#DC143C><Wiki MEETUP> 05:26, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Only staff can create the actual namespace, but there's a lot of work for us to do before they'll do that. According to what I've read, we would have to move every page that starts with Exchange: to a different title, including the redirects that would result from the moves. Given that we have 1,350 pages that would have to be moved and then redirects deleted, this is a LOT of work... not to mention that we have to move all the pages back afterwards. We could probably get a bot to move the pages, if that simplifies anything, but there's still almost 3,000 deletions for all of us sysops to do even if we do get one. Skill 05:43, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Wow I guess that is a bit too much work. It would be good if there was like a filter that would block all articles with the word 'exchange' or something. Then the exchange articles would be filtered. Probably not possible though. I'm gonna work on my bot now. Cheers, [[Image:Kandarincrest.gif|33px]] <font color=#FF0000> C <font color=#B22222> hicken <font color=#DC143C> 7 [[Image:Kandarincrest.gif|33px]] <font colour=#DC143C><Wiki MEETUP> 06:01, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Re the page moves and deletion, if people were prepared to temporarily grant PointyBot admin rights I could update it to do a lot of the heavy lifting, especially the deletion, and we can demote it again afterwards. I'd need a bit of time to prepare the bot code to be able to do that, but I'm willing to put the effort in if it's something that will improve the wiki. Let me know if you think it will help and I'll raise an RFA for PointyBot. Pointy 14:24, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I could probably knock this up in a couple of days if needed. The bot might take longer to do the work as it's limited to 6 operations a minute = 3 articles (move, delete) = about 7:30 hours. I can increase the limit so it'd be quicker though. Pointy 01:10, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

An Exchange namespace
According to the custom namespaces policy of wikia, every wiki is allowed to have 3 custom namespaces. The RuneScape wiki has used one namespace on "Updates." Because several users have mentioned getting Exchange: pages when clicking random article (and it was also suggested at the start of the project), I propose we use our second custom namespace on creating an "Exchange" namespace. I don't consider this a "waste" as some users may argue, because the Exchange pages aren't really content articles. It will be tons of work moving over 1500 pages once, and then back again once the namespace is created. All redirects created will have to be deleted. Twice. Now, honestly that idea excites me, I love deleting things. :) However I know I'm not the only one on this wiki. This would take a lot of work and a lot of editors. I guess we could just move everything to something like "E:item name", have the namespace created, then move it back to "Exchange:item name" so that all the exchange pages stay together in the Alphabetical List. We need consensus before wikia will make a namespace, so here are my questions: Please discuss! =D <Font face=Sylfaen><font color=RoyalBlue>Christine <Font face=Sylfaen><font color=LimeGreen>TalkFlickr 00:32, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) Does everyone like the idea of using one of our custom namespaces?
 * 2) Will there be many users willing to pitch in and help?
 * Yeh It's a good idea. But as stated above somewhere won't it be a hell of a lot of work for admin's? Cheers, [[Image:Kandarincrest.gif|33px]] <font color=#FF0000> C <font color=#B22222> hicken <font color=#DC143C> 7 [[Image:Kandarincrest.gif|33px]] <font colour=#DC143C><Wiki MEETUP> 07:57, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * If several admins are willing to help, it isn't as much work for each of us. I'm sure I could write a simple program to spit out deletion links so that there isn't as much clicking involved, possibly even with deletion summaries already filled in. Same with links to the move page, if no one writes a bot to do all the moves for us. It would also be easier to get this done if it's within the next few days while some of us are still on break... although that probably won't happen. Skill 09:22, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * OK. Well my bot is nearly finished and I'm looking for ideas. Also, If were gonna do this the bots editing Exchange articles will have to be turned off so they don't get confused when the articles are moved. Cheers, [[Image:Kandarincrest.gif|33px]] <font color=#FF0000> C <font color=#B22222> hicken <font color=#DC143C> 7 [[Image:Kandarincrest.gif|33px]] <font colour=#DC143C> talk 11:06, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah it really sucks cuz Skill and I were on vacation all this week, and now it's nearly over. Again, it's a lot of work but I am so looking forward to it. :D Also, I have Monday off too, but like Skill said, I doubt we'll have consensus by then. <Font face=Sylfaen><font color=RoyalBlue>Christine <Font face=Sylfaen><font color=LimeGreen>TalkFlickr 13:08, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe you could put a message up the tope of pages (That thing up the top that you can dismiss) that says we're trying to reach a consensus on making Exchange: an official namespace. I'll be away this weekend so i won't be able to help but if there is a list of supporters put my name on. [[Image:Kandarincrest.gif|33px]] <font color=#FF0000> C <font color=#B22222> hicken <font color=#DC143C> 7 [[Image:Kandarincrest.gif|33px]] <font colour=#DC143C> talk 05:26, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Added a link to the sitenotice. I doubt that we'll have a consensus by the end of the weekend, though (this is a big change). Skill 06:14, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * So de put like a Support/Oppose thing? [[Image:Kandarincrest.gif|33px]] <font color=#FF0000> C <font color=#B22222> hicken <font color=#DC143C> 7 [[Image:Kandarincrest.gif|33px]] <font colour=#DC143C> talk <font colour=#FF0000> support-the-namespace 08:38, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I think it's fine the way it is, but feel free to add sections if it gets too cluttered (which is quite likely given that it's in the sitenotice). Skill 08:40, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I've been wondering: Do moves increase your edit count?
 * Each one counts as an edit in the destination namespace, but not the original one. So between all the users who help on this there will be an additional ~3,000 Exchange: edits. Edit counts shouldn't be a very big deal, though... Skill 09:11, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol by saying that there is probably gonna be heaps of people who would want to help now. It'll be like a Gold Rush. Just out of interest, would it go towards our Exchange: or mainspace edit-count? Because the namespace wouldn't be made when we are doing the editing. [[Image:Kandarincrest.gif|25px]] <font color=#FF0000> C <font color=#B22222> hicken <font color=#DC143C> 7 [[Image:Kandarincrest.gif|25px]] <font colour=#DC143C> talk <font colour=#FF0000> support-the-namespace 09:19, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Definitely, I was going to suggest it too. There are so many Exchange articles, half the times you click Random Page, it comes out as and Exchange: article. 16:37, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah, I'll try to help do it too. 16:40, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Support, from everything I have written above. [[Image:Kandarincrest.gif|33px]] <font color=#FF0000> C <font color=#B22222> hicken <font color=#DC143C> 7 [[Image:Kandarincrest.gif|33px]] <font colour=#DC143C> talk <font colour=#FF0000> support-the-namespace 08:46, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Support Wrote a few comments above. Skill 07:50, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Support Better for the Wiki as a whole, easy edit count inflation, etc.
 * Support Yes I have come across this a few times myself, I completely agree that this deserves its own namespace, I you want help tell me what you want doing and I'll try to do as much as poss. 12:42, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Support This absolutely has to be done. Assuming all the item infobox templates could still correctly pull the prices from the Exchange: namespace. -- 15:23, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Strong Support for reasons above. 16:41, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Support because apparently doing this "official" proposal isn't viewed as support. -.- <Font face=Sylfaen><font color=RoyalBlue>Christine <Font face=Sylfaen><font color=LimeGreen>TalkFlickr 23:47, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Support For the reasons above. Although it may be worth waiting to see what happens with the future Grand Exchange changes first. Morian Smith 14:14, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
 *  Suggestion to wait  Jagex confirmed this week that they are doing pages of there own. May be worth seeing if they are good enough. User:Wilmslow 23:54, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * But we are an encyclopedia. We want all Jagex has, plus more. <Font face=Sylfaen><font color=RoyalBlue>Christine <Font face=Sylfaen><font color=LimeGreen>TalkFlickr 23:58, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The GEMW project will still be valuable even if Jagex introduces price histories because it allows us to work with the values more directly to calculate things like indices. Also, we don't know whether this feature will include the prices over the last three months since the Exchange was released, parts of which we already have. Skill 00:07, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
 * And, we could update a bot to scrape the prices automatically from their site and populate the Exchange: pages. There's nothing about botting the RS website in the rules and even RuneScript does it with the highscore stuff. :-) Pointy 14:36, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Support - seems like the right thing to do. Pointy 14:36, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
 * How long would we have to wait for the Exchange updates to finish? 14:38, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I've added comments above in the main discussion section. Pointy 01:10, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * How much support do we need before it can be done? Cheers, [[Image:Kandarincrest.gif|25px]] <font color=#FF0000> C <font color=#B22222> hicken <font color=#DC143C> 7 [[Image:Kandarincrest.gif|25px]] <font colour=#DC143C> talk <font colour=#FF0000> support-the-namespace 03:28, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Support Cool Spy0 05:37, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Support I'm getting tired of seeing Exchange stuff in all of the special pages, it's worth giving it it's own NS.
 * Support [[image:Piety.PNG |25px]] Sir Lenehan [[image:smite.PNG|25px]] 01:26, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Support i'm busy with university again this week but i'd try to help in the move Redekopmark 05:23, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Support As you can see from my contribs I haven't been active recently, nor am I likely to be in the near future (last year of school), but I think the addition of a namespace for exchange articles is well and truly justified. 11:40, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Support the whole idea. -- 15:00, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Support - Been out for a while, was pretty busy, but I'm back now =). I've agreed with this idea since the GE price guide was started, but there was some discussion over namespace limits and it trailed off. I'm glad this was suggested again, it's a no-brainer. 21:37, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Totally Support--Alex 13:28, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose I see no problem with the exchange articles taking up article spaces.--Zeeus 04:36, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Support I just hope that a transition can be relatively quick and painless. --[[Image:Emerald_amulet_ms.png]]Makemesmile[[Image:Mud_battlestaff.png]] 04:44, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Support I love the idea. I dont really use those pages, but still, its a great idea
 * Support - It's annoying to go random paging, and find a bunch of articles that aren't really articles. 10:52, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Support I don't even hit random page button anymore, for this very reason.Is this close to concensus yet?--Degenret01 11:11, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Support Well this is my first edit to the yew grove, but anyways, I clicked on "Random page" 10 times and 3 of those 10 times I got an exchange article. They need their own namespace, there's just too many. 22:00, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeh when will this reach Community consensus. Only one oppose and I see a lot of the well-known community members here. Cheers, [[Image:Kandarincrest.gif|25px]]<tt><font color=#B22222> Chicken7 </tt> >talk>sign 09:36, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Mainly we need to figure out whether this is going to be manual or bot-assisted, and whether we want to wait for Jagex to release their exchange information. Skill 22:16, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * OK then. What about we decide then because this support/oppose thing will go on for years. I say bot assisted and pending on waiting for Jagex. Cheers, [[Image:Kandarincrest.gif|25px]]<tt><font color=#B22222> Chicken7 </tt> >talk>sign 05:18, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Jagex already finished the GE updates. 21:29, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The update we're interested in is referenced here, second paragraph after "Grand Exchange Improvements:". That is, a website with graphical price tracking.  This hasn't, to the best of my knowledge, been released.

Consensus Declared - I counted something like 22 supports, 1 oppose. I also agree with what Christine said: We're an encyclopedia. No matter how good Jagex's guides and help pages get, our information will be more complete (except in the case of new releases, perhaps). We have numbers on our side. That's why fansites are so popular ;). Plus, as a wiki, we can do all sorts of interesting things with code like the GE Market Watch that other fansites would have to write all their own code to do. Although as a community overall we are lacking in skilled programmers, and our site isn't exactly designed for the type of game tools that Zybez is known for (skill calcs, etc.) =(.

By the way, there are 4,512 Exchange: pages. Might want to write a bot to move them all. 01:28, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * So, when do we start? 23:19, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Exactly, When do we start. This part of the page isn't getting much attention. Cheers, [[Image:Kandarincrest.gif|25px]]<tt><font color=#B22222> Chicken7 </tt> >talk>sign 04:55, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
 * In case it gets lost in the discussion above, I'll repeat the offer to get PointyBot to do some of the heavy lifting. I don't know exactly what needs to happen though in terms of moving pages around so I'll need someone to tell me what it needs to do. Pointy 13:31, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Every page that begins with "Exchange:" has to be moved to some other title, probably in the template or project namespaces (doesn't really matter which). History has to be preserved, so the move function would have to be used, leaving behind redirects. Those would have to be deleted, then we go to staff and get the namespace made. After that, we basically reverse the process, moving the exchange pages back to their original titles and probably deleting the redirects resulting from that as well. I should note that since most of us go on break soon, it would be nice to be able to do any manual parts necessary during that time. Not really required, though. Skill 00:08, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Cool. I'll start updating PointyBot tonight to allow it to do page moves. A couple more questions:
 * When should it start actually moving pages?
 * What do we do about deleting redirects? I guess an admin delete-fest might the best way, unless there are no objections to ***temporary*** admin status for PointyBot.
 * I really want to delete =[ <Font face=Sylfaen><font color=RoyalBlue>Christine <Font face=Sylfaen><font color=LimeGreen>TalkFlickr 18:31, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol. Does that mean no work for 'average' users? If so, that's fine. Cheers, [[Image:Kandarincrest.gif|25px]]<tt><font color=#B22222> Chicken7 </tt> >talk>sign 06:45, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, I've updated PointyBot and it's ready and raring to go. It will take about 4-5 hours to move all 1500-ish Exchange: pages at a rate of 1 every 10 seconds. I just need to know when everyone's going to be ready to delete the redirect pages and I can get it started. Pointy 14:40, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Requests for page protection
Perhaps we could make this page like they have on here? It might give an oppertunity for some articles to be semi or fully protected temporarily or permanently because of lots of attacks from different sources (i. e. how the Pay to pk riot was a few months ago). What do you all think? Butterman62 (talk) 23:33, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Support Butterman62 (talk)  23:36, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

What types of pages would this be needed for? <Font face=Sylfaen><font color=RoyalBlue>Christine  <Font face=Sylfaen><font color=LimeGreen>TalkFlickr 02:54, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
 * this and featured articles like articles of the month? 16:58, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Couldn't they just request it in the Yew Grove? 13:09, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Neutral, I don't think it is needed. But I don't know. Cheers, [[Image:Kandarincrest.gif|25px]]<tt><font color=#B22222> Chicken7 </tt> >talk>sign 09:30, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I also agree that it doesn't seem needed. <Font face=Sylfaen><font color=RoyalBlue>Christine <Font face=Sylfaen><font color=LimeGreen>TalkFlickr 16:59, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

It's probably easier to just ask admins on their talk pages or in IRC. Protection isn't used here very often (except to stop talk page abuse), and most active users know which admins are active, so there's no need for a page for this right now. Skill 22:32, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Image of the Month
I've brought this up a few times in the IRC, ad it hasn't really gotten anywhere. So, the idea is simple: Like articles, images would be voted on monthly to be featured on the Main Page to show the best of the best images on the wiki.

This has been, you could say 'tested', on RuneScape Fan Fiction. It goes just fine when people act like it's a voting for a featured article, but an image instead. On RuneScape fan Fiction, we give credit to the photographer, and require permission by them to feature. This doesn't have to happen here though. If Tarikochi went inactive, that would decrease the possible featured images by a few hundred, and may pose an annoying problem.

Now, it would be very lopsided for stills when running against animations. A good still would probably be beat out by an animation. For this reason, I've thought up that there would be a IotM (Image of the Month) and AnotM (Animation of the Month) sections in the same page. This way, still photographers (most of us) would have our 'time to shine', and not always be beaten by animation makers (a few of us).

Recommendations? Views? Discuss pl0x. 02:15, 2 March 2008 (UTC) Oppose Considering that many of our images are there as vanity pieces, this will only make "getting your image on the wiki" even more tacky Atlandy 22:31, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Support-Lol 'pl0x', Yes I think it's a great idea. Cheers, [[Image:Kandarincrest.gif|25px]]<tt><font color=#B22222> Chicken7 </tt> >talk>sign 09:39, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Neutral-Sorry I'm neutral now from reading others views. Cheers, [[Image:Kandarincrest.gif|25px]]<tt><font color=#B22222> Chicken7 </tt> >talk>sign 05:13, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose-I'm not sure I like the idea of voting on the creativity of images on the wiki. In my opinion, photos should be functional (they should only be there to add understanding to an article), not an expression of artistic skill.  Implying anything else will bring competition and bloatedness to article images, when in reality, an image for an article should either be suitable or not.  This idea makes sense in the context of Fan Fiction, however I don't believe it makes sense in the context of a functional wiki.  I definitely oppose the best animation idea, for another reason (which will be discussed further in another section): we should keep the front page as minimalistic (from a bandwidth perspective) as possible. Remember, this is the first thing that people see when visiting our site for the first time.  If the very first thing they see takes 20 seconds to load, they'll probably just leave and find another site.

Oppose- I read this proposal last night and had no opinion, until I came back today and read why people are opposing. They make an awful lot of sense.--Degenret01 23:36, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Oppose - I agree with Endasil. 12:42, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Accessibility of Pages
I want to use this discussion to talk about how we can bring the wiki to all varieties of user situations. I'm going to break it up into subsections as this is more of an umbrella topic. Feel free to add more subsections.

Screen Resolution
I think it's acceptable to assume that users should have a resolution of 1024x768 or more (800x600 would be too narrow of a target to shoot for, in my opinion). I keep my resolution at 1280x1024, and don't notice many issues with pages being too cramped at that resolution. I want other users to comment on their experience with the site. Is anyone using 1024x768? List your resolution and your experience on this site. Make note of any articles which have overlapping images/sections or are generally too cramped at your resolution.

To check/change your resolution in Windows: Right-click on the desktop, select Properties. Click on the "Settings" tab. The resolution is set under the heading "Screen Resolution"
 * I have 1280x800. Everything's fine for me. 22:46, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * At 1400x900 I don't notice anything, either. My old monitor was 1024x768, though, and I think there was an occasional problem or two, nothing major. (Can't remember much, had this one since two months ago.) The other computer uses the old monitor still, guess I could check on there if there's anything now. Skill 23:56, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Internet Bandwidth
Wikia, as great as they are, have a history of having notoriously slow hosting. We shouldn't be compounding the issue with large pages, if we can help it.

One of the things that makes pages larger are animated GIF images. Let me say right now that I am not against using animations where appropriate. I think in cases such as Special Attacks and weapon pages, these animations greatly enrich the user experience.

I think, however, that there are situations where animations aren't appropriate or necessary. Items is an example. This page contains 3MB of images, with only a KB or two of text. Something to ponder:
 * Load time of 3MB on the fastest dial-up connection: 75 seconds
 * Load time of 3MB on the slowest broadband connections: 34 seconds

Therefore, users with basic dial-up connection are waiting at least 75 seconds for a page to load whose text would take a quarter of a second to load. Further, these images don't really seem to add anything to the actual content of the page.

Now, if this was an isolated case I would just edit the page, but I wanted to get more into the philosophy of how we use animations, and images in general. I would suggest that


 * 1) Non-animated, uncompressed png images can be used (in moderation) on any article simply to enhance the viewing experience of the user. While not having to be directly related to the article, it should have relevance and if indirectly relevant, should at least have a caption that is directly relevant
 * 2) Animated GIF files that are non-trivial in size (>100KB, which is most of them) should only be used on pages where they are directly relevant, such as a special attack animation on a weapon page, or a skillcape animation on a skillcape page.

References
 * Image list, sorted by size
 * Items


 * I agree. There are way too many large file gif images that really don't have anything special to show regarding the item or whatever they are they for. So is this like a formal proposal to redo pics that are too large?--Degenret01 00:57, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Default Skin
This is something I only think about every once and a while when I am logged out of the site. The default skin for the wiki, in my opinion, is a mess of random text and is generally hard to find anything. Users are familiar with the Monobook skin through Wikipedia's layout and other major wiki projects. This makes Monobook a much more accessible skin to have for people visiting for the first time (even if it weren't inherently more accessible, which I believe it is). In my opinion, we should revert to using it as our default, and let users change their skin once they sign up.

What are some other opinions on the default skin? Am I the only one who finds it much more bloated and confusing than the simplistic monobook?
 * I also prefer Monobook. Quartz seems awkward to me, and that new skin Halopedia has is really awkward for me. Monobook forever! 22:46, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * This new skin (Monaco) is an improvement over Quartz, at least with the default themes, mainly because the sidebar and search bar are on the left side again. On the topic of changing the default skin, though, the admin panel in Special:Preferences won't let us change to Monobook. ("Default" was Quartz smoke last I checked.) So unless there's another way to change the skin, we have to pick either a Monaco or Quartz one for now. Skill 23:56, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I remember you saying something about that. I'm guessing there's somehow a way, though, since wikis like the 24 Wiki use a monobook variant.  You're also right in saying that left-handed navigation goes a long way, but personally I find even the colouring and positioning of the basic monobook cleaner and easier to look at.


 * Might have set it to monobook now. Logged out, cleared cookies and cache, and it came up as monobook when I restarted my browser. Can anyone check? Skill 04:38, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm logged off and It's monobook. I think you got it Skill. 121.219.52.76 05:02, 3 March 2008 (UTC) (Chicken7)


 * Heya!


 * I'm joining this discussion a little late, but I was curious: is there any specific reason that you don't want to use Monaco as the default skin? We released a bunch of new features with Monaco like the dynamic menus and the ability for users to create their own custom navigation and toolboxes.  Check out what FFXIclopedia has done with Monaco.  If you'd like, we can even have our staff designer work with you to create you your own custom Monaco skin.


 * Let me know what you think. --KyleH (talk) 00:10, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * To be honest, I'm personally not against the way FFXI has their skin. My main concern is that a non-monobook skin goes a long way to hiding the fact that this site is, in fact, a wiki.  A secondary concern (which was more with Quartz) is the amount of real estate that is taken up by the top and side bars, but that could be put to good use.  Monaco definitely brings a lot to the table.  Were someone willing to take the time to develop a suitable skin, I wouldn't be against using Monaco (and could certainly see a use for expanding menus).  However, until we have done so, I would rather not be using one of the default monaco themes.
 * Erm.. I've been working on a skin if anyone wants to see it... I think it's actually pretty good, though I'm biased. The only real issue is the links in the nav box, and I'm asking around for help with that. <Font face=Sylfaen><font color=RoyalBlue>Christine <Font face=Sylfaen><font color=LimeGreen>TalkFlickr 00:24, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Some new images: normal page, and editing a page. <Font face=Sylfaen><font color=RoyalBlue>Christine <Font face=Sylfaen><font color=LimeGreen>TalkFlickr 00:46, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with endasil. But I don't like monaco still. A wiki should have the Monobook skin always I think. It's tidier, cleaner, easy to use. there are extra features with Monaco but new users (like really new new users) will not understand how to use these features. When wikia turned to Monaco i thought it was a virus. I wouldn't want to be using Monaco at the current time (and I think a lot of other wikis would agree). Cheers, [[Image:Kandarincrest.gif|25px]]<tt><font color=#B22222> Chicken7 </tt> >talk>sign 00:15, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Christine's monaco looks good. But I'll wait to see it when it's finished. :) Cheers, [[Image:Kandarincrest.gif|25px]]<tt><font color=#B22222> Chicken7 </tt> >talk>sign 00:44, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

'''New image, with help from BladeBronson (apparently I wasn't far off, I had the code in there, but didn't know it was really there, so I set it to the same color as the background). Take a look = ].''' I've listed a few other minor bugs which hopefully can be fixed. =] <Font face=Sylfaen><font color=RoyalBlue>Christine <Font face=Sylfaen><font color=LimeGreen>TalkFlickr 03:41, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Wow, that looks really nice. I really look forward to seeing the finished product.  Are you still having difficulty with the Monaco sidebar?  If so, what kind of trouble are you having? --KyleH (talk) 16:42, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

dungeon maps
alot of the dungeons don't have a map on this site so if you can add? plz do
 * Yes this is true. But it is complicated to get maps in dungeons. You have to take photos of every part of the minimap to map it. I think there is a help article somwhere. Or we could just steal it from another fansite but that is illegal so don't do that, lol. Cheers, [[Image:Kandarincrest.gif|25px]]<tt><font color=#B22222> Chicken7 </tt> >talk>sign 01:12, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not illegal if you give credit. Though, there is a rule here that you cannot borrow a map from another site if they having something like "FOR USE ON RUNEHQ ONLY" on it. 01:26, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Not to cause an arguement, I am just curious about this policy. Jagex owns it all, lock stock and barrel. So why do we care if someone says that thier pic is for thier site only? Simple politeness? If someone has a better pic or map or something, I think we should borrow it. I have NOT done this, because of our policy. I'm just wondering how it started.--Degenret01 05:38, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Just politeness. All they can do to prevent someone from using it is asking. 08:02, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Does RuneHQ not want their images used on other sites? 12:45, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Correct, them peeps there think they own the image or something. It is somewhat understandable if they have a map, with arrows drawn all over showing a correct path to something or other. In which case case they have a small arguement for thier case because they did work on it. It is not justified for a pic of an item. But we have rules here to respect them anyhow. Not my choice.--Degenret01 00:01, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The Runescape Knowledge Base undoubtedly has the best unedited maps, and I haven't found anything saying you can't use them.--Andy mci 14:13, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

image shadows
I noticed a couple of things during the course of my corrupted cache incident, I found that it is possible to capture item images without their associated inventory shadow and outline by capturing them from the Grand Exchange interface in game which appears to have it's own shadowing style. This however makes some items look drastically different such as the Zamorakian spear (compare to its predecessor). In some places this shows better detail than an inventory capture.

The other thing i noticed is that the images all have 4 potential capture brightness levels due to the in-game settings. Again the Zamorakian spear and it's predecessor show these differences but you'll have to do a pixel by pixel comparison without the two different associated shadow styles (namely Grand Exchange and Inventory). Which is how i found 2 inventory background pixels in the predecessor version of the image.

TMI anyone? This info might be useful in the future however 01:38, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes i have discovered this too. Brightness should always be at a moderate brightness. But the inventory background I'm unsure of. I change images to transparency and I remove the brown part in most cases. Cheers, [[Image:Kandarincrest.gif|25px]]<tt><font color=#B22222> Chicken7 </tt> >talk>sign 12:10, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Personally, I use the brightest setting for item screenshots and I remove the dropshadow. I think that gives the best colour contrast, and the shadow just obscures the item detail in a lot of cases (spiked boots spring to mind here - they look a lot sharper without the shadow and you can actually see the spikes). Pointy 11:59, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with using the brightest setting however the drop shadow is not the only element that could be removed, there is also the outline element. 23:51, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I leave the outline on because it avoids the image blending into the page background - for example the scrolls on the default white skin, or other items if a skin with a different background colour is being used. (I use one of the gaming skins specifically so I can spot images that need transparency applied, so any items with dark blue edges would look odd when I browse them if they didn't have the black outline). Pointy 18:49, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Shop Image Policy
It's not getting much attention so i'll put it here. I've proposed a policy about how shop inventory screenshots should look. It's just proposed and Discussion is on the talk page. Cheers, <tt><font color=#B22222> Chicken7 </tt> >talk>sign 12:08, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

New color scheme
Guthix color scheme. I was thinking of making a new color scheme for Monaco skin. It's really not a bad skin, but it suffers since it looks like a wall of text without customization. So I have drawn up a color scheme and I was hoping you guys could comment on it. H YENASTE 02:37, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I think this is why we need to archive this page. <Font face=Sylfaen><font color=RoyalBlue>Christine <Font face=Sylfaen><font color=LimeGreen>TalkFlickr 03:14, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I've created an archive page and sent a few clearly closed discussions that way. Now we just have to decide which discussions are fit for archiving.
 * Oo I didn't know we already had a scheme in progress. It looks nice though, is it done?? H YENASTE  03:36, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Heh. Well, I've got all that done so far. Just got a few fixes from one of Wikia's staff, so I feel special getting the rest of it done myself XD Umm, I'm trying to get a time set aside to work with BladeBronson who helped me before. We can chat over IRC, but he's usually busy, and the one time he had some free time, I didn't have working browsers, so now we have to try again. Now Endasil is working on it too, so hopefully things can finally start coming together. However, I wouldn't stop working on yours if you want that scheme, the colors are pretty XD I took a lot of CSS from your monobook to get what I have now. I suggest still working on it, because we could put it to a vote, or you could use in your personal monaco anyways. I would like to say, though, that the monaco I've got up so far is usable. There are some issues with thumbnails and templates, but besides that, everything is pretty much ok. The important stuff anyways. There is a list of "broken" things that have to be fixed, so for anyone reading this, you don't have to tell me about the hugely obvious things (like the main page) =P <Font face=Sylfaen><font color=RoyalBlue>Christine <Font face=Sylfaen><font color=LimeGreen>TalkFlickr 16:36, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Fixed the main page.Anything else? H YENASTE  22:22, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Main page is still a bit off. Polls aren't working, though I thought I copied that off your monobook. Umm. Thumbnails are too dark but that's in the monaco already, just never looked at it, dunno how to fix it. Most templates don't work but changing those will probably screw everything up on monobook or anything else. However, the text in them is white here and black on monobook. No idea why they changed colors, so that has to be fixed. We need a way to use our own redirect image, as the current one doesn't work with this theme. However the redirect image is wiki-wide and cannot be changed by an individual wiki (as far as people in #wikia use, and they were staff =P) so I have to talk to Blade about that because the person I talked to wasn't really CSS-type staff. There's also TOC links which are blue and hard to read, the green would be nice. And when comparing two diffs on a history page, the summary text disappears so it's all black. See and . I think there were some more things I've forgotten about now, but a list can be made here. <Font face=Sylfaen><font color=RoyalBlue>Christine  <Font face=Sylfaen><font color=LimeGreen>TalkFlickr 23:18, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Can you reupload the image? Dechaineux deleted it
 * Also, I think, given how much attention this has been getting, that it would suitable to create a project page solely for discussion the default skin (logos, colour schemes, etc). Something like RuneScape/Cosmetics perhaps?  We could move our discussions there and have a link from the Yew grove.  I'm just thinking that as soon as multiple people try to collaborate on a single project, the discussion will tend to increase, and it would be best not to make the Yew grove any more bloated.

Crackdown on certain policies
I posted this in the forums, but NO ONE'S given me a single suggestion, so I'm placing it here. I want answers. Now. Before I go insane.

"I have been asked no fewer than SEVEN times by (mostly) noobs as to why their "images and pages" were deleted. All of these files, regardless of type, were deleted because:


 * In the case of an image, it was personal, or...
 * In the case of an article, it was worthless trash.

'''Yet people keep asking me as to why their things are being deleted. It's severely annoying, and I want to put an abrupt end to it. ALL OF IT. If I have one more person that asks me a question like that, I will start handing out blocks for ASKING the damn'd question.'''

'''Thus, I am proposing a stricter policy to our article creation, especially image uploading. I suggest that, when a new user registers, they must READ the rules, one-by-one (so they don't feel tempted to skip the whole thing), before being able to complete registration. I also believe we should revise RS:Granularity to include everything that doesn't have an impact on RS. (Currently, I see only non-interactive scenery as part of this policy; Chiafriend made a non-RS related article "Tracy West"; I believe that sort of thing should be included)'''

'''Image uploads are beginning to be a problem. I have just recently deleted a user's PERSONAL images. The problem is that people OBVIOUSLY "haven't heard of ImageShack or PhotoBucket" [/sarcasm]. Well, of COURSE they've heard of it! But isn't it much easier (and lazier) to just make it a wiki image? Thus, I believe we need to crack down on it big-time.'''"

OK, now as for such changes...

First off, the rules-before-registration. Is it possible to change the registration process so that a potential user must read the rules one-by-one (so they don't whizz by them and not care) before entering their account data? If so, I suggest we do that. We'll possibly get a lot less new users uploading their personal images. In fact, it might slice down the vandlism more than I'm currently foreseeing.

Another thing I suggested in that forum post is the RS:Granularity policy be revised so that it SPECIFICALLY states what is article-worthy and what is not. I see many not-worthy articles being written anyway, from "Tracy West" to "Winch". We don't really have to do a crackdown on violaters; such articles are few and far between. That reminds me: the current RS:Granularity policy only has ONE ARTICLE in its list. That's it: ONE. We need to update that crap more...

Which brings me to the last problem: Image uploads. They. Are. Misunderstood. We NEED to crack down on that more! I'm seeing too many instances where I they upload images that I delete, only for me to get a torrent of crap on my talk page about "OMFG Y U DLETE MAH ST00F!!!1 I WAZ UZING IT 4 MAH UZER PAJE!!1"...Pathetic. I'm NOT going to tolerate people asking me why I've deleted their stuff. If I have to change my way of doing things, like telling them EVERY time for EVERY personal image that EVERY noob uploads, fine. But until we get somewhere with this, I won't be reminding anyone anymore to not do such crappy things.
 * Awesome idea, I hate seeing some personal or crappy page on the namespace. 22:34, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Dude you did that like 5 times with your image... <Font face=Sylfaen><font color=RoyalBlue>Christine <Font face=Sylfaen><font color=LimeGreen>TalkFlickr 22:51, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Even if he did, after you learn how to do it properly, watching someone else do it wrong can piss you off, and don't tell me that isn't the case., 23:13, 19 March 2008 (UTC) (i did it too now it pisses me off :P)
 * Noobs will never read the rules and so proposing such a change will create almost no difference from what it was initially. 23:22, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't see a problem with personal images. The kind of articles you were mentioning, I understand why. Though for images, I see only one reason why not to allow them. What reason? "It uses up server space.". There is no limit to server space. "Using up server space" uses up an unlimited resource. I don't really see a problem with that. I do understand why non-RuneScape images would be deleted. Being off topic, and all. But for personal images, like an image of your character, an image of you getting a certain level, they are on the topic of the wiki: RuneScape.
 * Tracy West has the same connection to RuneScape that Jagex does. Jagex wrote the code to RuneScape. Tracy wrote the official book. If "Tracy West" is a "non-RS related article", the "Jagex" is too. 23:51, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Moving past how bad of an analogy that was, and how fallacious an argument it was that you just made, there is more than one reason not to allow personal images. This site aims to be a professional, wikified alternative to guide sites such as runehq and tip.it.  It is not a forum, and it is not a fan sandbox.  Everything that gets added to the Image repository belongs to this wiki and we're therefore putting our brand on it.  What does it look like when somebody puts some non-relevant, silly image on the site, and the admins don't delete it?  It reflects on the character of the site itself.  Furthermore, everything has a limit, especially server space.  Just because there may not be a published limit, that doesn't mean Wikia couldn't shut us down for not being responsible with the free space they give us.  We owe it to them to be good stewards of the resources they give us.
 * Also, there are plenty of free alternative image hosting sites available - if someone isn't able take the time and effort to upload the image and refer to that url from here, what's the chance that they'll bother adding the meta-information we want for images here, like categories, copyright usage, transparency and using correct file formats? The "proper" images we have already need a lot of work to clean up, let alone adding to the problem with hundreds of user images. Pointy 15:39, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The issue here is to add "color" to a user's personal page, and if some additional image ought to be allowed or not. I've run into edit wars with admins over allowing any image that is not directly copied or somehow extracted from the Jagex webpages... which IMHO is perhaps going a little over the top.  I tried to add an image of the New York Stock Exchange to the GEMW page stictly for some atmosphere, and it was not only deleted, but the deletion reverted and then deleted again.  Most other wikis, noting in particular even Wikipedia, have allowed images a more personal nature on their user pages without getting hyper paranoid about suitability.  This isn't to say that a whole gallery of images ought to be permitted, but I fail to see the harm in allowing some sort of personal image as long as it is tasteful (aka not pornographic) and kept at very low numbers, like at most one or two... and used on user pages.  Allowing this isn't going to kill wikia and overload the servers... nor do I see Wikia complaining here to eliminate this sort of incidental image uploading.  Wikipedia's main issue is copyright status... which is something that should be of concern here as well even as most of the images are copyrighted by Jagex and go way beyond even United States fair use legal concepts.  If we were really paranoid about copyright issues, 99.99% of all of the images currently on this project would have to be deleted.--Robert Horning 15:47, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think anyone's against allowing people to put (appropriate) personal images on their user pages. The issue is more about where those images are stored - whether it's on the wiki or whether we ask people to host them elsewhere and then link to them. The concern I have is with having to wade through large numbers of personal images to try and work with the 'legitimate' images - things like adding transparency, categorising images, finding unused files and so on will all be made harder by having to work around large numbers of personal images that would clutter up the wiki. Pointy 19:20, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
 * What is the problem with storing a "limited number" of personal images like this? To "sort" through the images, all that would really be needed is some sort of tag or category to label the image for "personal use" or something that is used on a user page.  While whole galleries should be prohibited, a modest number certainly could be used and uploaded to the wiki itself... copyright issues notwithstanding.  It does get into copyright issues, which is something this project should be worried about anyway.  Most of the images on this website can claim fair-use authority due to the fact that it is derived from screen shots of the game itself.  My question would then be raised here.... in your opinion what would be some examples of acceptable images that aren't copyrighted by Jagex?  --Robert Horning 00:24, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Warning Vandals
Okay, so the point I'm bringing up is warning (a set number of times) vandals before blocking. All editors are equal and should be teated equally; however, there are both pros and cons with this proposal. But rather than bring those points up, I want to make a compromise. We could try first time blocks for the convenience of admins, with warnings simultaneously. If the vandalism occurs even after both have taken effect, another block should take place with an extended amount of time. There needs to be consistency in blocking as well as more effective methods. Or, perhaps a user could think of a rating system for how long a block should last and what type of message they should receive.

e.g. the number represents severity out of a score of 10. If they exceed a specific number (probably 10), a block will take place. Less will result in a warning. Though, these ratings are my own and hypothetical.


 * Blanking pages. (8)
 * Posting offensive material, whether it be images or words. (5)
 * Contributing nonsense. (6)
 * A language other than English is added. (6)
 * False or deceptive information is being added to an article. (4)
 * Personal attacks on a user. (8-9)
 * Content which encourages breaking the 15 game rules. (8)
 * Advertising in any form (aside from websites listed under "External Links" which relate to the article that it is being put in) (7)
 * Articles about players. (6)
 * Impersonating another user. (7)
 * Creating pages and adding random nonsense to them. (5)

As you can see, pretty much anything more than 2 offences will result in a ban. I need commentary and am leaning toward admins and bureaucrats as this apllies to them. Maybe the amount of points over 10 represents the number of days the block will stay. That could work, but more suggestions and fine-tuning is necessary. 20:47, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I think any obvious vandalism deserves an instant block. Inserting swears, offensive words or images, putting crap and spam into pages, etc. Blanking a page only if it's more than one, it's possible that just one was an accident. Articles about players I don't think deserve a block unless it's repeatedly created or it's insulting or breaks anything I listed prior. That's all I really feel like typing out now, maybe I'll respond to other points later once more people chime in. <Font face=Sylfaen><font color=RoyalBlue>Christine <Font face=Sylfaen><font color=LimeGreen>TalkFlickr 21:09, 19 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Agree with Christine. I also instant block removing a lot of content and replacing it with 'OWNED' or whatever. Also obvious false info such as 1 gp for rune gear or 1,000,000,000 gp for a bucket in an Exchange page get instant blocking.  These vandals know what they are doing is not right and deserve instant blocking. Most anons and users do a good job editing and help improve the wikia.  Chrislee33 05:21, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Admins must still be able to exercise personal discretion first and foremost - anything else should be for guidance only. I'd support a policy giving general advice for ban lengths, but I think a formal 'scoring card' will add a lot of complications to the process. In some cases it could even prevent admins from banning someone who is deliberately vandalising but is keeping it just below whatever threshold is set for a permanent ban. Pointy 11:26, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Seeing as how this policy would only apply to admins and bureaucrats, it's up to you guys to decide what you feel will be the most effective way to deal with vandalism. If instant blocking is the most effective way to deal with it, then shouldn't the banned template lead them to our code of conduct? It's simple and not too hard. At this point there are quite a few admins who block first-time offenders but I think as long as some standard policy - just about anything that works and is official would satisfy me. Come to think of it, does anyone here have the programming skills to create a vandal fighting bot? If anybody has seen Cluebot's work in action, it's pretty useful. 20:19, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Sitenotice Exceptions?
According to this, the sitenotice rules don't allow advertising of upcoming events, and that includes Wikifests. Since the Wikifests are only advertised on the forums, many users aren't aware that they are even happening! Yesterday was the day before the Spring Wikifest, and when I went ingame, I informed wiki users that the Wikifest was going on and about 10 were really surprised. They asked "what time?", "where?", "what world?" and so on. Many people complained about the failure of the Spring Fest, and I agree with them. It was going great until many players left. If we had more people, the fest could have continued, but instead it fell appart. Many users on the Summer Wikifest thread have been complaining about the attendance and asking me to put it up on sitenotice. Obviously I can't do this as sitenotice prohibits advertising of events. Wikifests are public wiki events that are open to all wiki users. Perhaps if the attendance was raised and people were more informed, the parties would last longer and users would have more fun. It would also encourage some random people who happened to be in Falador during the party to join the wiki. How can we do this if at least 1/5 of the users on the wiki don't use or even look at the forums? That is why I am asking for an acception to be made for Wikifests on the sitenotice. A notice will go up 1 week before the event, and since the sitenotice appears to everyone (unless dismissed), more people will be encouraged to attend. Please discuss... 15:24, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree. However, this would have to be under close scrutiny (maybe by a bureaucrat?) to make sure that something like "selling d chain lowest price in ge!!!!!1111" (okay, that was a little extreme) doesn't go up there. [[Image:Bloodbarrage.png]] Butterman62 (talk) [[Image:Icebarrage.png]] 18:56, 23 March 2008 (UTC) In other words, support. [[Image:Bloodbarrage.png]] Butterman62 (talk) [[Image:Icebarrage.png]] 11:09, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Strong Support - There is no reason why events shouldn't be included. How else would the Summer WikiFest be advertised? The forums? Many users don't read them. 19:08, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Support I'm one of those who don't go on the forums, so i won't know about these events. Chrislee33 22:21, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Support Forums? I hope nothing important gets said there, I don't go. I missed a fest? Dang.--Degenret01 05:16, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I was all like "yeah I support Ilyas' point of view" and then I went to your link and found out I wrote those guidelines! Lol, a long time ago that was.  Anyway, I think my intention was to avoid misuse, such as posting a sitenotice that says something like "Ilyas and I are going to hunt the KBD in 10 minutes, show up on world 115 if you want to come...".  If no one objects, I'm going to edit those guidelines to make exceptions for events which have a community endorsement, such as the Wikifest.  Any other rules which need revising?  I still think we overuse the site notice, for stuff like "There is now a consensus on making an Exchange: namespace."  If there is a consensus and the discussion is closed, why the heck do we need to notify everyone that comes to the wiki about it?

Byting off templates
Without getting into the gruesome details, I've been trying to find a place to help improve the project and tighten up some of the templates that we've been using with the Grand Exchange Market Watch. One template that needs a little bit of administrator attention should be Template:!, as this template is used in a great many places, but significantly it is used several times on the Template:ExchangeItem template, one of the key foundational templates to the whole GEMW heirarchy of templates.

For more information, see Template talk:!. Thanks in advance for help on this issue. --Robert Horning 04:54, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Update to the user treatment policy
I'm pretty sure none of us like to be cussed at. I just remembered a run-in with another admin, where the other admin called me several bad things, but because it wasn't on the wiki, it wasn't punishable. Now, if this was done in a message to me on my talk page, the person would have lost their admin powers and would have been blocked for a month or two at the least.

So, what I'm proposing is that the user treatment policy is extended to the game itself between wikians, but loosened. On the wiki, if, let's say, me and a random user got in an argument and started yelling at each other "NOOB!" and such, we'd be in trouble. But in-game, that happens all the time, and like half of the community would be banned for personal attacks if that was not permitted. More unacceptable things, like calling others "whore"s, "douche"s, "retard"s, "gay", would be unallowed if this were to be passed.


 * What I just said in a nutshell:


 * "Noob!"
 * On the wiki: Not really allowed.
 * In-game: Allowed.
 * "Whore!", "Douche!", "Retard!", "Gay!"
 * On the wiki: Not allowed.
 * In-game: Not allowed.

Users can get away with verbally attacking another wikian in-game and not be punished (if they get a blackmark(s), they can always appeal and say "good bye" to it), but still do the same damage. Discuss, comment, recommend and all. 17:59, 25 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Can't enforce this. "He said this, she said that" but no proof. Don't even say screenshots, as I showed those before and got crap for them. What a person does in-game isn't wiki-related. Anyone in RS can be ignored, and that's the only thing to do. I have even mentioned this before to sannse, and she said that all we can do is ignore. Unless it extends to the wiki, we can't do anything to punish users. Christine 18:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC)


 * What about if it happens at an official wiki event? [[Image:Bloodbarrage.png]] Butterman62 (talk) [[Image:Icebarrage.png]] 19:41, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, wikia does not sponsor or plan the event, so it really isn't wiki-related in my opinion. To be clear, I'm not saying I don't like the idea, but I am saying that we really have no right to dictate how people act in-game. Christine 19:46, 25 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Aren't all of those words blocked by the RuneScape censor anyway? 19:51, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Normally, yes, but it's quite easy to bypass the censor. 20:25, 25 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Administrative action should be limited to the admin's sphere of authority. Making wiki admins responsible for users' actions elsewhere, which they have no power to independently confirm, is not a viable situation. If ignoring is not sufficient for you, and blackmarks are being revoked on appeal, your best options are to complain to a higher in-game body, to leave the game, or both.
 * If in-game sanctions such as exclusion from wiki-related events are being considered, I think it would be reasonable to require the complaining user to first prove that they are not a whore, douche, retard or gay, given the seemingly large population of these groups within online gaming communities. Documented consultation with their mothers might form acceptable evidence. ;-) --GreenReaper(talk) 20:34, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

not too long ago I was harrassed by two RSW vandals via private chat. I've also been flamed for my edits on a couple occasions, and a bunch of other wiki-related stuff happened. no offense or anything, but I shouldn't have to put up with this bull****.
 * just to clarify that was just a comment, not a support or oppose

As was established by RS:NOT, what happens in the game stays in the game. True, it's possible that they can appeal and have the marks lifted, but there's nothing more that can really be done. I fail to see what effect this will have, even if implemented, on conversations in private chat, as there is no way to prove who said what unless there are external trusted witnesses. (Evidence can easily be faked.) The occasional incident that might take place on public chat is an exception, but seeing how more people probably saw it, and more abuse reports are probably sent, this negates the concern over no punishment being given for the most part. Skill 22:39, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

We're not going to go there. What happens in-game isn't simply out of admins' realm of authority, it's none of our damn business. It would be like an American cop coming up to Canada and arresting me for downloading music. It's not his jurisdiction, I'm not under his country's rules and, as I've said, it's none of his damn business.
 * Exactly I agree with everything. But I never see anyone in game anyway. This doesn't really apply to me but I wanted to show my support. Cheers, [[Image:Kandarincrest.gif|25px]]<tt><font color=#B22222> Chicken7 </tt> >talk>sign 00:29, 27 March 2008 (UTC)