RuneScape:Requests for deletion/Western Lands

Western Lands
The spirit doesn't speak about the Western Lands, but he says: "As truly as the western lands fell." Note the not capitalized western lands. The dialogue of the spirit is on the Western Lands page. Most likely he refers to Ardougne or another place to the west of the Chaos temple he is currently. And also: Remember: The RuneScape wiki is NOT a crystal ball, and nothing on the page is based on facts said stuffin official Jagex releases or leaks.

Delete - As nominator 07:00, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

 Keep Neutral - Jagex hardly capitalised anything. Most proper nouns are only capitalised because it is automatic in the software to capitalise the first letter of a sentence/phrase. Even then, I don't think they put much thought into these things when they write a NPC's dialogue. Also, there is an apparent leaked/bugged map showing lands west of the Gielnorian continent. PLUS, I heard somewhere else that there is a photo of the Jagex offices showing a new continent besides Gielinor. if someone can follow that up, it could be another addition to the article. Cheers, 08:11, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment - I got an answer to everything you said there.
 * "Jagex hardly capitalised anything." If they plan things, like the Eastern Lands, or the North, the DO capitalize the first letters of the names(examples: Ak-Haranu, Romily Weaklax). BTW, the things they don't capitalize are typos and mistakes. If they really plan something like the Western Lands, they would capitalize it.
 * "I don't think they put much thought into these things when they write a NPC's dialogue." They would if they are giving spoilers away, and if they were really planning the Western Lands, they would have been more precise at the spoilers(they don't want too much to be leaked)
 * "There is an apparent leaked/bugged map showing lands west of the Gielnorian continent." This leaked map does definetely not show the western lands, as Soul Wars was placed there first, so they didn't plan Western Lands there, and Soul Wars isn't part of it, as it was moved away from that place. Adittionally, most likely a test place for POHs. And if it would be the Western Lands, it is: 1. very squared, 2. very close to Isafdar, 3. Not with higher and lower parts (so not like Prifddinas and Menaphos)
 * "I heard somewhere else that there is a photo of the Jagex offices showing a new continent besides Gielinor." You mean this image? That map doesn't look like it is western, but even eastern, as the island to the above looks like Mos Le'Harmless, and near the east is more desert than the west, so it isn't likely it is a map of the western lands.
 * Additionally, NOTHING you said is based on facts said by jagex, or on clear leaks(there could be doubt about the leaked map from the offices you said) and do you remember? RuneScape Wiki is not a crystal ball. 10:04, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * PS: If you can find me a place name NOT capitalized, please tell me, as I can't find much not-capitalized things. Jagex DOES carefully make texts, because if they make one typo, and let a word look like something else, a lot of people start discussing wether or not this was intentional, and if they are planning to add something, and they get loads of questions. They don't want that. 10:08, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * @#3, it isn't meant to be detailed when it's a leak, it just shows that they might be planning a new continent on west of the current one. 10:10, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Most likely the leaks that are currently there are there because Jagex wanted to test things, and occasionally upload it to the game too instead of only to the test servers. Why would you want to test a plain green field if you're going to change it to an island? they would at least added some height and trees and such. There is no need to test a plain field, as they know how to do that. Unless, of course, it was a plain field where you can build things if you click on things(as they didn't have experience with that)(so it might have been a test for... POHs!) 10:21, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * They need to start somewhere, so start with a basis/outline of the coast. They need to decide whether it is curvy or straight, or slanted, etc. It even seems like there is a river there. About Soul Wars being in that position, maybe Soul Wars got placed in the middle of the two continents? Anyway, you're arguments are convincing and I truly don't care about this topic, so I changed my stance. 10:50, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with you, but they wouldn't upload such a plain field, not even to the test servers, as they know how to do that. They would atleast add hills and such before testing. Do you press "preview" when you typed the first scentence on the wiki? I don't. I first create a quite big part and then click preview. And btw, i'm sure they also got some sort of preview, because if you gotta upload everything you want to check if it works to the test servers it would be much slower than just a quick preview. And if they would just add such a plain field first, what is the proof the Western Lands would be created, and it weren't a POH test fields? I repeat once more: The RuneScape Wiki is not a crystal ball
 * I never said they were testing. It might always be an intentional leak. 14:00, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * World map
 * Ok. I agree there is too little evidence for the leaked world map to say wether it is a test for POHs, Soul Wars (if that intentional leak is true), or the "Western Lands". I just want to say one thing about that. They wouldn't give such intentional spoilers, like the Strange power, so early for something they're not even developing. (read second post by Mod Ash )(mind that the leak was atleast june 2008). Look at the image history Let's close that after that.
 * Mentioning by Spirit
 * If that is closed, there are no other things why you could think those western lands will be made. The only thing is that the spirit said "the western lands fell". But that could refer to places to the west, not the western lands. Let's speak for myself, but in the Netherlands, they say things on the weather forecast like: "there will be rain in the west and more sunshine in the east and the north". Another thing: there is in real world something called the western world. In Runescape, this could refer to their richer part of the world (also the western part of runescape(as places like Varrock aren't rich, click here for explaination)).
 * Summary
 * I just want to know: What proof is there for the following: 1: The Spirit mentioned another continent, and not just Krandarin or something. 2:The leaked world map was for a new continent, and not Soul wars or POHs. 3:The Western lands exist(i mean proof you think that's still proof after reading this. And if there is no proof, or no clear proof that we can be sure of that it actually proof, the article should be deleted, as explained here(I refer once more to this page, as none of your answers seem to look like you actually read it)(and please read that page section. No pages with only rumours should be on the wiki)
 * BTW
 * Do you two really think there is going to be something like the Western Lands, or are you just defending the article.
 * Other people than Chess and Chicken: You are also allowed to talk in this discussion. It is still a request for deletion, and not the page talk.
 * --- 19:41, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Keep - Just make sure that it only contains fact, and not speculation. Other than that, how is it hurting the wiki to have this here? Nothing has exploded yet, or am I looking in the wrong places? 19:48, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree. Let's place facts there only. that's exactly nothing. 02:39, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * No, we have the spirit talk stuff, etc. Even if it is all just references to it from other areas, it's still good. 04:21, August 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, ok, if the article stays, we might place things like "There is a spirit in the wilderness who talks about a non-capitalized "western lands" which might refer to a new continent, however, there are also people who think he is just talking about a western part of the Wilderness or Krandarin." Is that something worth the name of "article"?(tried to write it as neutral as possible) 19:54, August 24, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - OK. Apparently, nobody got any reasons but reasons I busted, so i suggest we wait another day and then, if nobody gives a better reason or re-opens the discussion, the page should be deleted. 21:22, August 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Too early & Sysops will determine consensus. 21:23, August 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, i'll try it neutral then:
 * OK. Apparently, nobody got any reasons for more than 2 days, exept reasons I busted. I suggest this topic should be placed on top of the RuneScape:Requests for deletion page for more readers. I would also like to know when the decision will be made (how long time of no answers) until this will be closed. 03:25, August 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * The decision will be made when consensus is reached. If no consensus is reached the page will be kept. It's only been 2 days, give it more time. Don't take it personally, look at other completed requests for deletion. Most discussions to determine consensus take a week or so. 04:07, August 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Uhm... You haven't busted any reasons at all. 08:54, August 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * I mean the reasons that were good reasons before this discussion, but they actually aren't(look at the arguments above) 01:40, August 12, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - From what i gather here simply renaming the article to "western lands" would suffice, unfortunately the first letter will be capitalised (as is my name which i prefer in all lower case). So i'm thinking a renaming of the article to "Western lands" would suffice, no? If not then the article name can be lowercase masked as my user page is. I don't see a truly compelling reason to delete the article. 18:45, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

Delete There's really no reason to keep it. The article was created based on speculation that western lands refers to something west of the known world, however the ghost that said this was on the eastern part of the wilderness, so it could be referring to the western part of the wilderness, which was decimated during the god wars, or pretty much anything west of varrock, including falador, ardougne, burthrope, the desert, and dozens of other potential locations without even thinking about lands further west of what we already know. There's no reason to believe that "the western lands" does not refer to any of these locations. The fact that it is uncaplitalised is in fact quite significant because when referring to the eastern lands, Jagex consistantly capitalises it. 18:54, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

Comment Doesn't the Leaks page say that the green space on the map was used to test POH stuff? Real Not Pure 17:47, August 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * It does say "It has been stated that the area was used to test PoH items" and this was, according to the image history, stated by private client users. I don't know much about private clients, but i heard something about that they can predict updates that are coming, because they have some methods for it and blah blah blah...(i'm actually just saying something to look smart...) but i believe those guys more than that lunatic spirit in the chaos altar, which is just vaguely referring to the western wildy or Krandarin. PS: it is of course possible there will once come another new part to the west of the current map, but it is equally possible there will come something to the south or north. 1 reference, which is not capitalized, by a lunatic spirit is not enough to base a complete speculation article on, and the page is only speculation, and the RSWiki is not the place for speculation. You might wanna do that on user/talk pages, but not mainspace articles. 14:22, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

Speedy delete - Article violates RS:NIP RS:NOT, Jagex has never said anything about planning to release it. --Coolnesse 06:06, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Keep - It's a Morian Smith article, what's not to like about it (just joking)? But seriously, it's a better article than many stubs, it is referenced in the game, was used previously for Soul Wars and appeared on the World Map prior to this. 21:58, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * The area that you are referring to was never going to be used for anything. Just look at it. Its perfectly square and perfectly level. No other terrain is like that anywhere in RuneScape. They all have at least some hills and irregularities. I have no idea where the notion that they were used to test POH houses comes from, but I believe it since that's the only other terrain that's totally flat like that. regardless of what it was used for however it was never going to become anything. Its totally disjointed and unrelated to the "western lands" that you're thinking of. 16:56, August 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Then let us correct the article. It has more information than many stub articles, it existed in RuneScape, and keep it for what it was. Maybe it was right at the time of creation, but that it no reason to remove it in my opinion. 22:49, August 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * We don't have to correct it, if the article is deleted and there will be something at the Leaks page. That will explain enough, no need for a speculation page. And @ Psycho, the rumour about POHs comes from 1. The fact it is totally flat, and 2. Because people with private clients said it was used for that[src](i know thats no evidence, but it is what the rumours come from) 00:44, August 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well that's the thing Ryan, we can't expand it because the article is on completely the wrong thing. If we corrected it to be about that patch of land, it wouldn't be about the western lands anymore. It would be about that little patch of land. And there's not enough information about that little patch of land to justify an article, since its just an image. Anything we say about that image other than when it first appeared (we don't know that) is pure speculation and that violates RS:NOT. As such the only suitable location for non-speculative documentation about the image is the leak page. And when you remove the image from the article, the only thing you are left with is the one thing the spirit said, and merely assuming that he meant some undiscovered land instead of any area west of him is itself violating the cyrstal ball policy. There's really no way around that. 22:05, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Strong delete - It doesn't violate RS:NIP like Coolnesse said it would, only because the western lands are not an item. However, the wiki is not a crystal ball and this article clearly violates that. It is complete speculation based on no factual evidence that the western lands are actually going to be released. 01:27, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

Strong delete - Per nom. Jagex has also stated that they wanted to complete the current continent before they release the EASTERN LANDS - so why would they be planning western ones? On a related note, that undeveloped green area west of Isafdar was a testing place for PoH's. Why, tell me, would they add a ridiculously undeveloped area on the map as a test for "Soul wars" YEARS before the game was released? I highly doubt Soul Wars was even in DEVELOPMENT back then. -- 21:47, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Keep - It was an urban legend and as such should be kept as that is one of the exceptions in RS:NIP 02:51, September 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment - Urban Legend? If so, it is far from notable. At least, this article is the first time I'VE heard about it. 17:39, September 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * It doesn't have to do something with RS:NIP, because the western lands are not an item.
 * Even if it would have to do something with it: about the urban legend talked about in RS:NIP, it is not notable because it is nonsense, and they are not going to release it, and it has only been recognised by a handful of players.
 * 21:00, September 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * It was very notable when it was on the map and you probably don't know about it because you weren't playing back when it was found out about. Plus yes it is not an item but Use common sense it's a non-existent thing and NIP is the pretty relevant to this. 07:56, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've been playing since 2004, and remember the so-called "leak" of the map only vaguely. Just because it was notable AT THE TIME does not mean it is notable anymore. Go in-game and ask some higher leveled players - I doubt any of them will know what you are talking about. 01:46, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Its not an urban legend, its a set of wild assumptions and unrelated connections made between two words of dialogue and a developmental patch of land released and redacted without a word from Jagex about it. 01:56, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * So are you saying that in 5 years sailing should be deleted?. 06:57, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Who's talking about sailing? does it have to do anything with the "Western Lands"? and if you meant that "sailing is mostly speculation, and it's the same case as western lands" you are actually wrong. Sailing is a real urban legend. Ask a couple of players and most will know about sailing. It also was CLEARLY leaked in the hiscores list(this was a clear leak, not some vague one) and Jagex did actually talk about it(like when talking about the "New 2010 skill" one of the things it was gonna be was "It will not be Sailing". Sailing also has MUCH more evidence than these "Western Lands" This is actually a big difference with Western lands. If you meant "Sailing will be forgotten by then too" i don't think so. Most likely for the next 3 times a new skill will be released people will ask about sailing and if it will come. That's already something like 4 years. After that, it will still stay a historical urban legend which lasted very long. I think this world map leak urban legend only lasted a month, and then people forgot about it. Try to search Sailing on google, and you find 126.000 results. If you try Western lands with " around it(so only when they are placed behind each other results will be shown) you find 252 results. This shows it is a MUCH bigger urban legend than western lands, and so will stay a legend very long. 00:05, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * You can't draw parallels between this and sailing. Sailing was a widespread rumor started by a faked image and has become an in-joke due to its prevalence. This article is completely speculation based on nothing but two words. And those two words werne't referring to anything specific. They were referring only to some unspecified land west of the ghost. 00:09, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * How are they not similar, they are both urban legends created by leaks on the runescape website, and most players will know about sailing because it is so recent, plus a small urban legend deserved a page as much as a big urban legend. Plus your comment below means nothing, I don't think the Western Lands exist and i don't think Sailing will either yet one urban legend gets a page and one doesn't? 08:02, September 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * First of all sailing was not a rumor started by a leak, it was a rumor started by a faked image. And since its inception, it has been an extremely prevalent and pervasive in-joke, even amongst Jagex Moderators. Western lands is not something you could call an urban legend. I would estimate that a tiny fraction of runescape players have even s poken to that ghost, and of that fraction, a tiny fraction have come away th the idea that "the western lands" refers to some mysterious land that hasn't been released yet. As such "the western lands" is not an urban legend like sailing is. It is the baseless speculation of a very small amount of players. 09:17, September 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * First the fake image was a leak, second "is not an urban legend like sailing is" it may not be as big as sailing but that doesn't mean it isn't an urban legend. 11:12, September 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * the image is a leak indeed, but the mentioning by the spirit is not. and even if the article is an urban legend, it is not allowed if you follow #4 of RS:NIP:


 * These western lands are not notable, nor recognised by many players(a fraction of a fraction like psycho said) so "urban legends" this small aren't allowed. If it would, urban legends about things like "there will once be an ability to go in space because that's where star sprites come from" will also get articles. We don't want that, because it is not notable and not recognised by many players. 10:48, September 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * First this thing about space and the star sprite is bs, no one has ever said that and there has not been ever leaks about this. Second what do you consider many players? a thousand people, 5 thousand people, a million people? There would be thousands of people that know of this, if you think of the fraction it may not be massive but 5 thousand people is a lot of people and most likely it would be much more people than that would know about it. 11:02, September 11, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - If you think the western lands really are going to exist, it is allowed to copy it to a subpage of your userpage. That way, you can remember the good old times of this leak, and the "urban legend" around it. 00:05, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Did you seriously say that? DBAD. 01:58, September 11, 2010 (UTC)

Being a dick isn't equivalent to being uncivil or impolite
 * is copying content off a page you like, which is going to be deleted(maybe) uncivil or impolite? 10:48, September 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * What's happening here? I don't get it. 10:51, September 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * It was the way you said it like "urban legend" thats just rude so yes it is being uncivil and impolite. 11:02, September 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * RS:GTS: you are using the policy RS:DBAD for things with bad faith so you will get what you want: that the article stays. And it is not rude, i used those "s because i really don't believe they exist. 13:10, September 12, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - could this be closed please? in more than a month, no good reasons were given to keep the article. I'm getting tired of these western lands... Thanks. 00:05, September 9, 2010 (UTC)