Talk:Gods/Archive 2

broken data section
The Menaphite Pantheon section and the bandos logo are broken and messed up.


 * also, some one has replaced all the taken from ingame god logos with crappy ones made in inkscape, a drawing program. Heavyoak (talk) 11:34, July 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * ok the bandos logo is fixed, still not from in game, but the Menaphite Pantheon section is still badly broken.Heavyoak (talk) 22:49, July 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * The bandos logo is an .svg, doesn't matter; what exactly is wrong with the other section? 22:52, July 26, 2012 (UTC)


 * I see what's wrong, you'll have to ask whoever made that image map. 22:54, July 26, 2012 (UTC)


 * Ignore all that :) I had someone make an image map; all should be in order. 23:37, July 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * When you say the logos are broken, do you mean that the logos have a colour? Why is that bad? Gods have a symbol and a colour that represents them, we could combine those here into the logo, that's also how they're often seen in-game. Or am I wrong? 06:12, July 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think he meant that the bandos symbol appeared as its file name; this was a problem in the .svg's coding and the fix turned out to be a simple revert (our upgrade ruined it). 06:14, July 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh... okay, I think I did understand some of that :3 Thanks 07:14, July 27, 2012 (UTC)

New god?
The livestream said there will be a character ascending to godhood soon, should we add this in? Or have I just missed it? 22:28, November 6, 2012 (UTC)

You leave it out as that is not enough for a new section also it would go in upcoming updates rather than gods which i believe it already is 23:04, November 6, 2012 (UTC)

Current use of God symbols
Hi, I saw something that's out of the ordinary. All the god pages have black symbols, except Armadyl. We know what the 'official' colours of the symbols are, mostly. Jagex even released several pictures of them, like this one: http://services.runescape.com/m=rswikiimages/en/2013/1/RS-god-symbols-PG-08171701.jpg (okay sorry, file messed up - even more messed up than I thought :P). Because of those things, I propose that we just use the symbols with the correct and given colours, we can still list secondary colours in text underneath - like it is now. What do you guys think? 10:58, February 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Can you provide a working link first? 13:04, February 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Thanks for the warning ;) But any idea how I can prevent that from happening again - how can I properly link/show a picture from outside of wiki, I believe that's possible? :S 13:44, February 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * So what about it now?

Sliske?
Should a section for Sliske be added to this page?

Given what we know about how power is transferred when you kill a god, it seems that Sliske is now a god and possibly more powerful than the others given that Guthix was the most powerful god, and Sliske still has the Staff of Armadyl. I think he could be added under the 'Lesser-known or minor gods' or 'Other deities' section.

Thoughts?04ismailjj6 (talk) 00:07, March 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Unless it is confirmed verbally or in-game by Jagex, no. 05:13, March 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * How do we know this? We don't know how powers are transferred, and we don't know that Guthix's powers were actually transferred. 10:26, March 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Mod Ana said he maybe is a god and Osborne said he would hide it if he were and he would proclaim it if he weren't. We'll have to wait until the sequel and refrain from speculation. 10:47, March 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps there is some sort of confirmation already? Based on information removed here (the removal being simply administrative as it has happened already): http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Upcoming_updates?curid=136324&diff=7564049&oldid=7536907 the last sentence removed could imply Sliske is indeed a God now? 134.58.179.35 06:49, March 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I remember not thinking that was a good idea. As we don't really know. Not jut the part about the last sentence, but also the 1st part... it's about the whole year not just the very 1st update that could be associated with it :-/ Good question tho ;) 09:57, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

3rd and 4th Age Sections?
Should we add Sections for the 3rd and 4th age? I know the 3rd Age was the God wars but we could still sum up the distribution of Forces on this page and link to the main God wars page. I don't know much about the 4th age but someone else could add a section for that too. 04ismailjj6 (talk) 13:28, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

Elder Gods
Seeing the page been protected because of Edit warring, I'd liek to say we need to come into an agreement then, I came into one with a few people, and they agreed on waiting for source. Statting a Mod said, wouldn't be a real source, but more like, a theory, if there is nothnig to back up. Before I heard he stated it in a interview with RuneZone. Now I am hearing he stated it in a thread, which gets me thinknig, was the statement even true? or is it spreadign to a rumor cause of misunderstanding? Now we just need to pick on what to do, I would have made this topic earlier, but i was at School. Kinglink15 (talk) 19:04, April 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well... if a Mod (responsible for lore, for which Mod Osborne is the best source) said so, then - for all I care - it is so. But... just saying that a Mod said so, does not cut it. I would like a source. If it's a thread: link to a thread, if it's an interview link to the interview. If the interview is not online yet (or the transcript of it) then there's no practical source. No public source, no mention. (There are exceptions, maybe, like the Update hints page, but not many more). So... let's keep it in the form that we actually know is correct, until we can actually cite a source. I can't see why that would be overly greedy to ask (a source). 19:58, April 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you for agreeing with me, I have been accused for removing because of my "beliefs" which is not true, I do care about the facts and all, but I don't see such fact, so I don't think we should add that he is an elder god, until proof is shown, so I think it is a lie people stated to just Troll, or it is true, but now spreading to rumors, due to no facts shown.Kinglink15 (talk) 20:19, April 25, 2013 (UTC)

New Information from Mod Osborne

Mod Osborne recently conducted an interview with RuneZone. In it, he revealed that there is a Fremennik God (only one) and a Karamjan God (only one), one of whom is the God with a name on the world map.

He also revealed that Sliske was the character he talked about earlier-- the "God ascender."

He also revealed specifics about the seven tiers of godhood. The first (highest) tier is indeed Elder Godhood, and this is distinct from the other tiers in that the Elder Gods are the ONLY Gods with the ability to create life and the create worlds. The Freneskae Creator God, then, must be an Elder God.

The second tier of Godhood is what Osborne called the "transcendent" Gods-- they are the strongest of the non-Elder Gods, and perhaps may have had the potential to become Elder Gods. Guthix was of this level before his death, and Zaros was of this level at his height.

The seventh (lowest) tier of Godhood is what Osborne called the "Reflections" or "Facets" of Gods. Scabaras, Crondis, and the Bandos Avatar are of this tier. They are not "full" Gods-- they are "parts" of Gods and exercise Godly power.

Please add this to the page. Thank you. 02:38, April 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * There, this should be enough, right? Unless you need a transcript of the interview, which I'm sure is out there somewhere. Jagex named me Able Tis (talk) 03:12, April 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * Source link (either to the listenable interview itself or to the transcribed version)? Then I'll be awesomely happy :3 05:30, April 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45wZmNLNDiM 06:17, April 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * AWESEOME!!! tysvvvvm! :3 Damn an interview of nearly 1 hour long. I think I can speak for all of us, that this is a source, and that this is all we could ever ask for! (Well maybe a 2 hour long interview, but as a source, the best you can have!). 07:54, April 26, 2013 (UTC)

"Other gods"
Gods can be divided into: Elder gods and Younger gods.. or even better, by tier. The "other category" is meaning less and utter trivial. 13:44, May 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree that the Gods should be organised by 7 Tiers as they are officially, howver we have too little informaiton about which gods go on which tiers at the moment and an attempt to organise the page that way would leave most Gods under 'unknown tier' which is as meaningless and trivial as 'other'. I think we should leave it the way it is until we get more information, either from these lore podcasts or other in-game content. A lot will probably be explained when these God Emissaries are released later this month. 04ismailjj6 (talk) 10:54, May 4, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, after the tiers, and gods on them, are released... which Mod Osborne said he would do (but I haven't really seen it. :( -- 11:02, May 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * You haven't seen it cos it hasn't been released yet. It'll probably be released with the God Emissaries content, or the next lore-based update after that. There's a thread on the forums with some speculation about it. Plus people are claiming the new Skill is Divination and being secretly released this month too, so hopefully it'll all be released this Tuesday! :D04ismailjj6 (talk) 15:43, May 4, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, I just said it's not released... and the God Emissaries is about the gods history and 'philosophy', or 'alignment', not about their tier (for so far I've read and also heard in the podcast). And I don't think the new skill will give us more info on what tier gods are on... seems very odd to me, especially because they've planned the skill for a long time -- and Osborne said he would upload the simple 7-point-list on the Future Content Forum. But, yes, I hope it will be so very soon :3 21:09, May 4, 2013 (UTC)

Jas - gender and addressment
So, Jas' gender is disputed (in While Guthix Sleeps Jas is referred to as he:male, while in the TokHaar book Jas is referred to as she:female). In the article Jas was sometimes referred to as plural :them. Of one thing we can be clear: plural is certainly wrong.
 * It has been said that 'her/his' is confusing.
 * Addressing Jas as 'it' or 'It' (like we used to do on Guthix) page, may be gender-neutral, but could suggest genderlessness, which is also false.
 * To me it seems most effective to 'just pick one', and since we normally seem to use the most recent released content to most accurate/up-to-date (as a side-note: Mod Osborne said the Elder gods were 'elementals' fist, while a few weeks later he came back on it and even saying younger gods can become elder gods), it seems to be to be best to use female as default (for conveniency), while still calling it disputed.
 * So, please, let's discus ;) 11:28, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Or we use the gender-neutral form: they. They = (s)he. 11:30, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * But 'normally seem to use the most recent released content to most accurate/up-to-date', correct ?
 * We use the most reliable source. Both sources, which contradict each other, have had direct contact with Jas, although the translation may be false. Again, read Jas please. 11:35, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * But 'normally seem to use the most recent released content to most accurate/up-to-date', correct? 12:51, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * The Jas section has been rewritten to remove all use of pronouns, be they male, female or neuter. Can this be dropped now? 12:52, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Sure :3 But that still leaves my question unanswered :(
 * My question: 'normally seem to use the most recent released content to most accurate/up-to-date', correct? 12:55, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * There is no such thing as "outdated sources", except for the God Letters and when something new directly contradicts something that wasn't said in-game. 13:04, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * What about the quests and other lore-related things that got replaced (Silverlight no longer is a Guthixian item, but Saradominist; runes were never lost, the wizard's tower just got destroyed; Juna didn't speak for Guthix, she had a warped idea of Guthix teachings; demons are no longer weak to magic, but bolts, despite the graphic still saying so; you no longer need a Seal of passage on lunar island after lunar diplomacy, but you are still kicked of lunar island during blood runs deep; etc.; etc.), those are outdated/replaced/removed. I don't know how much of those things contradict other things in the game, but it doesn't seem to be seamless to me. I'm sure these aren't the best examples, but I guess you catch my drift. 13:33, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Jas is never stated to NOT be genderless. Both the Stone of Jas itself and the Dragonkin refer to Jas as "he", which can be used to refer to genderless beings, and TzHaar-Ga'al-Kot's translation is the only thing that refers to Jas as female. Keep in mind that TokHaar wouldn't have had a word for male or female, as they would never have encountered any beings with a gender. 13:47, May 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * Lets get to the point where Leon, and Wahisietel have a poin. Jas is never stated to be genderless, but it was not proved that he isn't. Right now it is best to pick that Jas is an "IT" due to the Dragonkins (his creation) See's Jas as a "he". and teh Ga'al mentioned Jas, as a She. with these confusing information, lets not forget how we all thought Guthix was an it, despite the fact that Juna, (if i am correct) and Bando calling Guthix an "He", which was proven then by the World wake, that he was a male after all. I think Jas might be genderless, but I might be wrong, as for Jas creations, the Dragokins, might be right on Jas being a he. SO for now, we keep it as an it, until Q&A is stated from jagex, or a new quest giving us more information.Kinglink15 (talk) 14:11, May 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, lore changes. Battleben/Wahisietel seems to have changed his mind, I think(?). But it would be way too much to assume we can really know the perspective of the TokHaar. As for my question :P does anyone know the asnwer? - Because I think I'm right :3 14:17, May 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * my answer, no, but hey, we are human, theory cross our mind all the time. Kinglink15 (talk) 14:27, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Just don't mention Jas's gender. Lore changes, yes. But this is contradicting information released just over a year ago. I don't see why elder gods would even have genders to be honest. 14:30, May 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * Don't forget Jagex is in control on the gender thing. is if they wanted, they could give elder gods gender. butyes, let's talk about lore.Kinglink15 (talk) 14:33, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Does it follow from this that you also agree we should call Jas a girl then? 14:41, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) You agree lore changes and we should change accordingly.
 * 2) You seem to agree the latest version of lore is the most correct/up-to-date, within a margin of error.
 * 3) Mod Osborne said the Elder gods were 'elementals' first (and hinted that you could not become an elder god, but that they just were and are), a few weeks later he came back on it, agreed they have alignments/philosophies, and even saying younger gods can become elder gods.


 * 1. Lets lets change information
 * 2. uh huh?
 * 3. Well then teh elder gods, were just elder gods at first, meaning they were just made, and that younger gods can become an elder god (by power, and length i presume is that he is saying?)
 * I still remain on keepnig jas an It, as I said, Dragokins called Jas a he, Tokhaar i guess an she. SO an it would be better until further information given. Kinglink15 (talk) 14:59, May 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * My point is lore got changed. Mod Osborne changes his mind, and so should we. 15:06, May 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * You're right, we should, but we did. WE could have kept Jas as a He, but no, we changed it as a It, due to Dragokins, and teh Ga'al. Now, I can see your effort on trying to make Jas a she, but there is no proof that Jas is a 100% female, or 100% male, or 100% Genderless. So, what should we do? Easy. In jas page. we add information that its gender is unknown due for the Ga'al translation to a Female, and Dragokins translation to a male. Osborne would troll us again and make Jas gender less, male, or female. Do we know that? No, so that is why it is best to wait until proof comes. Because Dragokins could be right about Jas being male, unless Osborne changed the jounral and changed the "he" into a "she" THEN it is lore change, but if it remains, then the best to do is call Jas a it, and allow others, to decide on their own it's gender, until Osborn says other wise. Kinglink15 (talk) 15:16, May 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * Jas is referred to as she, so they apparently chainged their mind, because there's nothing in that source that indicates Jas gender is absent, neutral, male or plural for that matter :P All there in in the latest source is 'she'. So should we call Jas 'She' too? 15:39, May 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * And the source from teh Dragokins, is He, So we keep it as a it, until as i said, Osborne states in in the Q&A video, or thread, that Jas is a female or male. Kinglink15 (talk) 15:42, May 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * 1) Lore changes, Yes. As in, old lore is removed from the game and replaced with newer lore (IE: The Wizard's Tower.) Jas is still referred to as a "he" in the game, and the last such reference was just over a year ago, which isn't exactly old.
 * 2) The latest version of lore is usually more reliable, yes. But a Ga'al translating something from a language they don't even natively speak is less reliable than a book written by a creature that was actually created by Jas.
 * 3) He never said anything about mortals becoming elder gods, and he just said he's against elder gods being purely elemental. Mod Osborne frequently gets things wrong anyway, due to having too much cola. *cough* Ikov/Iban *cough* *cough* Amascut being a Tier 7 god *cough*.

I don't see why you find it so hard to accept that we should use gender neutral pronouns, as we don't have confirmation on Jas's gender. 15:56, May 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * Right, a friend of mine owns the Dragokin journal, and as he read, it still says "HE" and "his" I check the quest journal of the whiel guthix sleep, Still an "he", so two source a He, one a she, Then we make it an It.Kinglink15 (talk) 16:00, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * ...just use "they". I don't see the problem. Gender-neutral is much better than implied genderless. 16:04, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

To Battleben: I see your points (1&2). your point 3 though, is wrong. I believe it was the 2nd or 2st episode of the Above the Lore podcast (my bet is the 1st, kinda dislike they don't load it to youtube where we could actually link to the second). I understand he frequently gets things wrong, I point to that myself too. I'm okay with using neutral pronouns, my point was we tend to say the most recent is correct, eventhough we don't seem to want to do that. Pointing to the Dragonkin and saying it's just a year ago, doesn't matter (as he seemingly changed his mind within a matter of weeks). And labeling every incongruence of established lore as a *cough*mistake*cough* will basically dismiss the whole Above the Lore thing. So, yes (Fswe1) I agree we should use gender-neutral language... eventhough it seems strangely plural xD But that's just a thing with English and how it evolved 17:14, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay (to Kinglink) you don't seem to understand what most recent addition means, that's okay (old versions, like the Dragonkin journal, aren't automatically updated).

Gender-neutral - 'they' and 'them' are also singular-neutral, but if you want to debate...?. 17:14, May 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * Leon, You don't seem to understand what I mean, or fact is you are sticking to much to the updates. What makes you think that teh Ga'al, are 100% right? because of teh update? Remember Guthix was consider an "IT" due for the gods letter, and Juna plus Bandos called Guthix a He, we still called him an it, due for other npc callnig Guthix an it. (until world wake) Jas gender is still unknown, don't forget Ga'al are different races, and could believe Jas is Female, while teh Dragokin could believe Jas is male. The update remains, meaning it is the same thing, and it can only be question, of what the player thinks. If you think Jas is Female, Ok. that's your opinion, I am ok with that and find no problem what so ever, I honestly don't care about the Gender. So try and see wmy reason. There can be a chance the reason why Ga'al said female, was because they believe it is female, as the Dragokins believe it is male (if they are not updated yet.) Until Mod osborne tells us otherwise, then we can edit, and fix and put Jas Gender, but since there is no facts that he is a female, While Dragokin Journal still says male, it would be best to wait, and wait, before we assume 100% and end up making an mistake. So Understand Leon, I understand what "most Recent addition means" But just because they added female for teh Ga'al, doesn't mean it is 100% true, like Stated, that can't speak english perfectly, so it could be a mistake. and if it isn't, oh well, we still must let our selves to decide.Kinglink15 (talk) 17:31, May 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * Jas's gender (if any) and English usage with respect to objects or persons of indeterminate gender should be two separate discussions.
 * My impression on the usage is that there is a transatlantic split here. Where I've seen this argued elsewhere, the British seem to be more accepting of that usage, while in the U.S., the formulation he or she or variants thereof is preferred to [mis]use of they when referring to a person of indeterminate gender. Certainly when I was in school, using 'they' as singular neutral in any situation would have earned me a lot of red ink and a low mark.
 * Even the wikipedia articles to which you link don't unambiguously endorse this usage, but devote considerable verbiage to debate over its acceptability. The second sentence in They: "The correctness of this usage is disputed." Of particular note is that TCMOS, which is the most widely used style guide for academic and professional writing in the U.S., does not accept singular they. Further, every example given in the wikipedia articles has an epicene or generic 'they' referring back to an indeterminate antecedent, not a definite antecedent of unknown gender.
 * In many cases, a revision to the flow of a paragraph can avoid the need for any awkward pronoun, so that neither a he or she is present to offend the eyes of some, nor a they which might offend the sensibilities of others. Qloque (talk) 17:59, May 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * lol, Qloque, maybe we need to just invent a new language :-/ Since Jagex is based in Britain and use UK-English, people are adamant on the British spelling of words here too, probably grammar too.
 * As for my reply to Kinglink: since we know the God letters are not canon any more, the discussion about Guthix's gender has stopped. The god letters were the only source (to my knowledge) stating that Guthix was male nor female. This made us assume (back then) that Jagex used "he" for Guthix because 'it' might have been confusing. After TWW was released, a question about Guthix gender was posed (is Guthix still neutral in gender?) and answered (for such a powerful god it's not relevant). It could be that the Ga'al is completely wrong about every bit of translation... even that 'Ful' should have been 'Fool!'. I have said that we mostly consider newer updates to be the updated version of RS. So if you do no longer need a Seal of passage after Lunar Diplomacy, but are still kicked off during Blood Runs Deep; then we assume the later quest has not yet been updated, or that something else is going on - in a similar matter can we assume that the Dragonkin journal isn't updated. You said "until Mod osborne tells us otherwise", but you seem to forget that this TzHaar-Ga'al is also lore, and most likely approved of (if not written by) that very Mod Osborne. 06:51, May 20, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes it is true that the later source is more likely to be correct. If you look at the books found in Lletya, many of them have been there since '05 iirc and contain lore that conflicts with modern counterparts. In that case it is relatively safe to assume lore has simply moved on and they are in need of updating. Flametongue, whilst meant to be canon, looks increasingly non-canon when you look at the dragonkin journals. Again, Flametongue was released a number of years ago, and can likely be discounted. The dragonkin journals though have been released relatively recently (within the last 12 months?). To suggest they are already out of date, is, quite frankly, ridiculous. You cannot discount any source without solid reasoning, and to suggest it is incorrect because of one more recent source is verging on bias.