RuneScape:Yew Grove

The Yew Grove is a page where community members can discuss larger changes to the wiki, such as policy proposal. As this page is viewed by a diverse number of editors, you can expect a fair and centralized discussion. Broadly construed, if the community would be interested in your topic, start it here.

Other
 * For promoting or beginning a project, use RuneScape:WikiGuild
 * For discussion of RuneScape itself, use the forums.
 * To list an ongoing discussion, use the RuneScape:Requests for comment directory.
 * To make a special request or comment to the administrators of this wiki, add to the discussion on RuneScape:Administrator requests.

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.OGG readers, and what to do with Adventurers' Tales
As a wiki, we stride strive to become a good one. We already are, but there is one thing that we could defely use. As used by Wikipedia, having the ability to play .OGGs while a reader is reading an article could make the experience on this site better.


 * Having trouble pronouncing something? An .OGG could be played to show the reader how to say it. (I would be willing to do this.)
 * If anyone was willing to do such a thing, we could have narrations of articles.
 * Plus some other stuff, which escapes my ming mind at the moment.

Someone in #Wikia a while back said that to get an .OGG player, all one would have to do is request a staff member to install it, and it should be pretty much as simple as that.
 * The OggHandler extension has been installed in RuneScape Wiki. The extension allows Ogg audio and video files to be played in wiki pages, using the same syntax as for image files.


 * To embed an Ogg file, use:
 * [[Image:Dtmf0.ogg]]
 * which gives:
 * [[Image:Dtmf0.ogg]]


 * To upload an Ogg file, just use the Special:Upload. It may seem weird that audio files are stored in the Image namespace.  But soon (hopefully in MediaWiki 1.14 update), the Image namespace will be replaced with the File namespace.  Wikipedia now has been updated to MediaWiki 1.14, and Wikia would be doing it sooner rather than later.  19:55, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

But on another note, do we need RuneScape:Adventurers' Tales anyone anymore? RSFF covers that now. If we deleted it (or whatever a verdict may turn out to be), it wouldn't really do any damage, as the actual content is in the respective users' userpages.

So yeah, discuss and stuff. 05:50, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I should stop trying to type stuff when I'm so tired. :")... 19:18, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

OGG
Support - I like the idea of having .ogg's for articles (definition). And you don't need to worry Chia, I wont let your ideas escape your "ming" (lulz). =) 06:04, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Support per myself. 19:18, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Support I'd be willing to do it with my *cough* webcam sound recorder. However, this will take up lots of space (just like animations). 19:25, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol I can also use my dad's headphones. 19:41, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Support - It's a very good idea. Only difficulty is the large amount of articles, and we'd need to recreate oggs every time someone makes an edit. -- 01:54, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Support One good thing about this is Firefox 3.1 will have built-in .ogg support. A lot of words from RS are pronounced a lot of different ways,it would be great to know the proper way. - TehKittyCat 17:57, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Support per Chia. Also, if you want to pronounce RS words correctly, use the Postbags (they sometimes give pronunciations). 02:43, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

comment Rather than changing everything to ogg, which would mean that to keep it up to date you'd need mayby 50 people who are expert at doing it, can pronounce all the words correctly and have little in teh way of an unintelligible accent changing it continually, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week without break. Rather than that, why don't we have a page with all the hard to say/pronounce words on a certain page, which uses .ogg formatt, so that people can learn how to pronounce the words.-- 14:28, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Support I have a microphone by Logitech and I use it to talk on skype all the time. It has exceptional quality for what I paid for. Im willing to pronounce some words., 08:07, 27 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Support - I've been waiting for the wiki to start using .ogg files. I will be happy to record stuff but not narrate articles or pronounce words. Lol, I can't wait until we have all these American voices narrating articles. It'll be hilarious!!! And a solution to recreating oggs when someone makes an edit: we just post a date and it can be updated another time. So if people see it is old they can just read it themselves. Also, new sound files might have to go through some kind of authorisation process because I can imagine the sound files we'll get from some people.... Cheers, 13:52, 27 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Oppose/Support - Look how often articles are updated. Every edit that is made to a page the OGG will have to be rerecorded. If you want entire pages to be read aloud, have a download link somewhere for a program that reads the text that is there, not once was. I think only the hard to pronounce words should have sound. That way we just get OGG files for all the words that are hard to pronounce, and they never have to be changed. -- 17:42, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Adventurers' Tales
Neutral - Adventurers' Tales are fan-fiction, and I feel that they should belong in RSFF. I would like to suggest that a note is given to the authors to move their content to RSFF, and we put a note on the page to say "We have moved to RuneScape Fan Fiction, please list your stories in RSFF." 12:01, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Keep Adventurers' Tales. The RSW and the RSFF Wiki are separate. There is no need for us to remove it. 12:28, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * We may indeed be seperate, but both are run by the same community. 19:18, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, but there are some people at the FF wiki who are not here, and people at the RS wiki that are not there. 15:04, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Support discontinuation - Per myself. Not really deleting it, but maybe removing most of the content and replacing it with 'yadda yadda, this has been discontinued and stuff, please use the RuneScape Fan Fiction Wiki instead'. 19:18, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Support per Chia. And it's "strive", not "stride".

Same community? How do you know that? Just because you and a few other RS-Wikians go on, doesn't mean everyone does. What would we do with the old ones? Merge them into the other wiki? We're separate wikis! 16:36, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
 * RSFF is part of the RSW community because nine out of ten users there (Heck, we don't even have ten active users XD) edit here also. And I meant "discontinuation" as in 'accepting no new submissions', or something. For the stuff already in the respective userpages, it would stay there, per RS:DEU. Lastly, I know both are separate wikis, but that definitely hasn't stopped our 'crats (two at least, I'm pretty sure) and others from trying to dump articles into another wiki. Go talk to them on that matter ;). 03:23, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't understand why we even half to discontinue it. Sure, we can let RSFFWiki have it. That doesn't mean we can't accept submissions. What's wrong with that? And why would we direct other users to a different wiki? 02:03, 25 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Support Keeping

RSFF is for solely tales/fan fiction. the RSW is for All things runescape, including runescape tales. However, I think that Tales/stories should be created on the author/editor's page or subpage, otherwise we'd have to make a category for stories, so they didn't get mixed up with fact. Thanks.-- 14:23, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Support Deleting

I checked the page and the first five "stories" are pretty much only a title, with no actual writing. Therefore, I agree (in a way) with Zilenserz in that users can write stories on their own sub-pages, but the general page should either be removed, or replaced with a message notifying users that the page is no longer active and that they can post stories on their own sub-pages.

The Yew Grove - Ground rules & censorship on the Wiki Guide to the Yew Grove
OK, from the recent spate of b****ing going on in the Yew Grove about other editors questioning the value of contributions, accusations of sockpuppeting, and polls about blocks, I think we need to lay down some ground rules. These will (if approved) be located at the top of this page under the "What this page should/should not..." section. So here goes...


 * Do not use language which others may find offensive - swearing, [I find B****ing offensive] blonde jokes, racial slurs etc.
 * Follow all behavioural guidelines, especially RS:AEAE, RS:DDD and RS:UTP.
 * Resolve disputes peacefully. That means no cheap shots and no come-backs.
 * Do not use this page to discuss other editor's blocks or bans, accuse others of breaking guidelines or criticising their editing styles. Use their talk page instead.

the list is obviously not complete, feel free to add to it. Thanks, 15:50, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * This can be summed up as be respectful and considerate of others. Keep the same mature, professional attitude you would have at work (or school for those of you who don't work.) This is a community of responsible, knowledgeable people who share the same interest of providing accurate information to those who desire it. While people may have disputes, it does not belong on this page. This page is for discussion of community events, something that affects nearly everyone in the community. However witty and cool somebody may feel by talking back on the internet, it's really not as impressive as the originator may think it is. If it doesn't help better the encyclopedia, don't put it on this page. I understand that there are many younger users on this wiki who might not share the same sense of respect and equality as others, but now is the perfect time to start learning. Being a "badass" in the real world won't get you anywhere, and it won't get you anywhere here either. It takes a lot less effort, time, and energy to just be helpful and do the right thing. If you have a personal issue with somebody, use the wiki's e-mail, keep it off the talk pages. This will keep others from flaming and start even more problems. But please, respect other people, it will help everybody in the end. 16:03, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * "This will keep others from flaming and start even more problems." - Did you mean "This will keep others from flaming and starting even more problems." or "This will keep others from flaming and stop even more problems."?
 * Heh, thanks stinko. It will keep others from flaming and starting even more problems. Meaning if it is kept personal between two people, nobody else will be tempted to add their two cents. 16:11, 6 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Why do people that have been sysopped get to swear? They act like they have every right in the world to and they own the Wiki. It really bothers me. Just because you have a position of authority in the Wiki community doesn't mean you should get to say offensive things like cuss. [[Image:Prayer.gif]]Jediadam4 [[Image:Abyssal Whip.gif]] 18:39, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm a little confused on this previous statement. The only two sysops who have commented on this are myself and stinko, and I found all of our comments to be clean. I will look again though. 18:46, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Im not sure I entirely understand your concern Jedi. If the policies are the same as the of the beginning of my hiatus then swearing can be used on the wiki provided it's not being used to direct an attack on another user. Generally most people don't swear every second line as it dosen't look very proffesional. But certainly provided you are keeping your comments neutral and constructive I really don't have a problem with "cuss". --Whiplash 18:51, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see: Do not use language which others may find offensive - swearing. All I have to say to that is that this is NOT kindergarten. We had a debate on this awhile back and I rembember that the consencus of it was that swearing is allowed on the wiki provided it's not being directed at a user. As far as Im concerned the swearing thing should be removed. --Whiplash 18:59, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * And to think this was supposed to solve problems... Anyway, I think RS:AGF should be added to the list. All too often people jump to the conclusion that someone is up to no good. 19:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * As a policy or two may inhibit discussion, RS:IAR in particular should be added.
 * Adding on to the rules on "wittiness", what we need to avoid is active moderating. One-line comments like "Xpkerpure, please use proper grammar" and "lolonoob, remember that RS:AEAE" aren't helping anyone and can turn the Yew Grove into a uncomfortable or even hostile environment.  20:07, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to have to side with Whiplash on this. Swearing is part of daily life, and 99% of the time it is not directed at anybody. This is generally accepted as okay, as it is not intended to offend or upset anybody. If somebody takes offense to every "swear" or "curse/cuss word" thrown around, they're in for a lifetime of disappointment. Certain words carry with them a highly offensive meaning, and should not be used, imo, but for the most part, provided it isn't aimed at anybody, it is fine. 20:11, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * In response to the unregistered users comment above. Most behavioural policies on the wiki are not seriously enforced, perhaps with the exception of the user treatment policy. --Whiplash 20:16, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I really think we should keep the "no swearing" rule ONLY on the YG, because I can guarantee that nobody will have legitimate cause to "cuss" about a subject of discussion posted here. (If you wish to debate this, please provide an example where swearing would be acceptable in a communal discussion). 07:26, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * If you ask me, swearing should be prohibited/limited to talk pages and userpages only. I know of young kids who frequent this Wiki looking for information on RS and whatnot.  Although "99% of swearing" is not directed at anybody, this gives the impression that swearing is cool and okay.  We do not want to instill this perception that swearing is acceptable, especially among younger kids.  I don't think swearing is offensive, but I flinch every time I see a swear word in this wiki, knowing that some kid might see it and start using it at school the next day.  Imagine when the teacher asks "Where did you learn that word?" and the kid replies: "The RuneScape Wiki - the wiki for all things RuneScape."  LOL.  07:39, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You do have a point az, but at some time people need to come to the realization that we're not living a sheltered life, and the real world exists. I agree that swearing should not be allowed in articles, but on discussion pages such as this one, talk pages and such, certain non-offensive words that are considered "swear words" are acceptable, imo. If the concern is about young children seeing "bad words" and using them the next day, then the Player Dictionary article needs to be deleted. In all honesty, television is far more vulgar than pretty much anything kids will see here. 16:01, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the edit conflict Karlis =P, here was my original message... Azliq: I completely agree with you. How about limiting swearing to user talk pages and the player dictionary, because according to RS:DEU, we're not allowed to have swearing on user pages. Since this discussion is tipping over to a debate about the censorship on the RuneScape Wiki, I've changed the title to observe the views of others concerning the oppression of vulgar language amongst the younger people who may visit our Wiki. Karlis: the player dictionary has a language warning at the top of the page. Now regarding your comparison between the Wiki and TV. Television censorship (where I live) is much harsher than the Wiki's, there are content warnings, ratings and restricted time periods when shows and movies can be shown. Although I do not want our Wiki to end up like this, I do propose some protection. Moving on... "...certain non-offensive words that are considered "swear words" are acceptable..." I think that no swear word is acceptable, but some are tolerated more than others. The word "crap" would be more socially acceptable than "f***", right? 16:28, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Gonna reset this back to the left. I understand the difference in censorship based on countries, but I find some things trivial to censor. And yeah, I know about the language warning on the top of the page, but if a child is going to "learn curse words" from the wiki, a warning is not going to stop them. Now back to my opinions of trivial censorship. Words such as "damn", "hell" and "crap" are generally accepted by younger kids as borderline "bad words" yet are acceptable pretty much everywhere. I agree that certain four letter words are too far, but we need to have a more realistic stand. OK, from the recent spate of b****ing going on in the Yew Grove... ..work has been a pain in the a** this week...  ...I have had a lot of sh** going on this week... These all have "curse" words in them, by traditional standards, yet are not offensive. I want to know why something like this should be censored, when all that these words are doing are simply adding emotion to the sentence. Not that I am arguing that I display anything like this on my page, nor would I put it on anybody elses page, but I don't believe people should be shunned for it, or it should be looked down upon because the user is a little bit more mature than others. 16:58, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Seconded. 01:50, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, so I agree with you on the point that some words should be acceptable. Now going back to what you said, I really don't see that adding emotion to one's opinions stated here in the Yew Grove is a necessity. I proposed these guidelines because I have observed experienced editors drop the "s" bomb in discussions and use it excessively. THAT sort of language is what I want to control in the YG. And BTW, "b****ing" is a verb. 08:38, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Sure "some" words may be acceptable, but which ones should be accepted? How do we decide which ones are acceptable, and which ones are not? I feel that since this Wiki is about RuneScape, I propose that we follow the censorship based on the RuneScape game itself, i.e. the Chat filter. Jagex had introduced the Chat filter to filter out profanities and swear words from the game because they knew who the game was catered to: for people of all ages; played by people from different origins (countries) and ethnicities. Being a Wiki dedicated to RuneScape, our audience/visitors will be the same people playing RuneScape. I wouldn't mind if swearing is allowed in a Wiki dedicated to "GTA: San Andreas" where the game itself is rated Mature (17+), but on RSWiki...? What I would like to see among editors (especially admins) is self-censorship: in Project pages (like this one), article talkpages, "edit summaries", etc. See this page: So What's Wrong with Cussing?  12:32, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I keep a sense of professionalism on the wiki, so I do whatever I can to keep my language clean and civil. What people type on talk pages and user pages is their own thing. Let me try to summarize... On pages with community discussions or where the general public of the wiki is going to view, I agree that language should be kept clean. On userpages, actually maybe just user pages and subpages, we should be a little bit more lax. I disagree with people posting profanity on others' talk pages, so I guess just your own userpage, really. I stick with my initial post in this discussion, I feel it sums up well how I feel. Where that was more directed at overall attitude, it could apply to language as well. Be respectful and mindful of others. 12:41, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, this discussion has turned into whether or not profanity is okay, and it has been drawn away from guidelines and overall "appropriate attitude" when discussing on the yew grove. Lets recap for those who don't feel like scrolling up, and highlight other areas that need to be discussed...

*Do not use language which others may find offensive - swearing, blonde jokes, racial slurs etc.
 * Follow all behavioural guidelines, especially RS:AEAE, RS:DDD and RS:UTP.
 * Resolve disputes peacefully. That means no cheap shots and no come-backs.
 * Do not use this page to discuss other editor's blocks or bans, accuse others of breaking guidelines or criticising their editing styles. Use their talk page instead.
 * I will finish this when I get to work, time to go! 12:46, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, let me just provide some background information about the proposed additions. ...blonde jokes, racial slurs etc. This is based on the guidelines which many users of the official RuneScape Forums may be familiar about, this was taken from the Forum Code of Conduct. ...'''Resolve disputes peacefully. That means no cheap shots and no come-backs.''' This is based on Wikipedia's dispute resolution and civility policies and the negotiation essay. Our Wiki is based on consensus, and it will only keep going is if we can make decisions peacefully without contributors getting angry. Sure, a debate is healthy and is what brings up brighter and more efficient ideas, but don't go overboard. Use their talk page instead. OK, the main thinking behind this was the debate over a certain editor's recent indefinite block. I thought that an argument regarding an editor or the status of their account would be better suited to a user talk page, rather than the YG. I agree with Az on the censoring of words according to RuneScape. 13:44, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed with Az. This wiki already is enforced according to most RuneScape rules, I can't really see why, with a few exceptions, this shouldn't be the case here. Now, my question is about euphemisms... For example, crud over crap, for instance. I don't see why these would be any problem, though I'm open to discussion on that. --Pikaandpi 13:51, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * My argument is that language of an offensive nature should be removed because there is no reasonable cause to use it in the first place. When are we going to use the word "crud" when talking about our Wiki? 13:54, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I'll have to admit I'm not sure how to respond in terms to the first sectence, as it kinda renders what I was going to say obslete <_< Buto for example "I'm sick and tired with all this crap" could easily be replaced with "I'm sick and tired with all this crud." Not so much talking "about" the Wiki, but within the Wiki about, say, RuneScape itself or whats happening in the real world. --Pikaandpi 13:59, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Language of an offensive nature, yes. If you are offended by the word crap, it's time to grow up a little bit. 14:02, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * When you put it that way... obviously the word is not offensive, "You're a piece of crap", "You're full of crap" can rub off as an attack. 14:06, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Nothing personal, Karlis. But, "Crap" by definition is excrement and the act of defecating. See The Free Dictionary's first two definitions. The dictionary also mentions it as a "vulgar slang".  Although I'm not offended by euphemism use of the word, the word itself is disgusting, and similar words may be used instead.
 * Lets just put it this way. RuneScape requires their users to be age 13 or over. We can follow similar guidelines. Children 13 years old are mature enough to deal with some words. From what it seems, there is going to be no way to settle this as non-offensive words can be used in an attack. I think we are going to have to deal with this on a case-by-case basis. If I see something like "All I got form my slayer mission was a bunch of crap" or "I didn't get a damn thing from barrows" I'm not going to take any action, as it would be rediculous. If it is an attack at another player, then obviously the circumstances are different. I really think we need to get off the topic of offensive language and more on the topic of offensive content. There is a huge difference between the two. 14:20, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Guide to the Yew Grove
OK, since the current discussion seems to be going nowhere, I have another proposal. Instead of having the "rules" section as stated above, I think we should have a link to a Yew Grove Guide essay. It would state the rules (remember, ESSAY, which means you don't have to follow them) and much more stuff, like how to make a proposal, giving feedback, etc. I'll start drafting. What do you think? 04:54, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a interesting idea, where would you put it on the wiki to make sure everyone who needs to view it can view it? -- Rune ldr 88  03:58, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I was thinking probably at the top of this page... 04:49, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Sure, that sounds good. The essay looks fine so far. 02:06, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

There should be no cursing at all for a few very simple reasons: -- 17:16, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * We attempt to follow the same fifteen rules that Jagex established in game and rule number one is no swearing.
 * RuneScape:User treatment policy states: If you have a disagreement do not try to solve the issue with verbal insults or by using profanities. The use of profanity, even if not directly used to berate someone else violates this policy in any argument.
 * We are primarily an encyclopedia. I can't see any reason why even on the article talk pages someone would use cursing unless they have a limited vocabulary or are trying to be "edgy".
 * RuneScape is skewed primarily towards children. Though this place is not a "shelter" as has been noted above, it is even less a place to be exposed to such things.
 * Would you use epithets when talking to someone you just met or in front of a large crowd? This is essentially what it is like writing on the Internet and often people forget that there are other human beings on the other side.  There is no chance that you can offend someone by not swearing but there is a chance that you could offend them by swearing so to me, the choice between the two is obvious.
 * It's just basic common decency to curb the language.

Registration Revision (take 3)
Read this before you start commenting.

The amount of users blanking their talk page has dramatically increased, and personally, I think that needs attention. I am once again suggesting we change the registration messages to include a nutshell version of the rules because it's getting VERY old leaving a mention of RS:DDD on what seems like every new user's talk page. Personal images? WAY down since the last time I tried this, so I'm not concerned about that issue currently. Still, the amount of talk page blanking is out of hand.

The last time I brought this up, ONE PERSON suggested something, after which the suggestion was never posted in again. Don't leave me hanging, here...


 * I agree 100%. I also think that we still should outline the personal image rule a bit more as well. But as far as this suggestion goes, there have been times I wanted to protect their talk page just so they'd leave it alone. Maybe we could offer a short guide to archiving so if they want a blank talk page, they could simply do that rather than just blanking it all. 12:44, 13 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I have to totally support the archiving tutorial, or perhaps even something more turnkey for those less inclined to follow such (an archive button or widget perhaps, but that might be beyond the scope of current capabilities). Perhaps many of these users are expecting blog like behaviour where older entries just float off the first page. We obviously can't give them that, however anything to ease and educate about archiving would be I believe the most helpful way to alleviate this problem en masse.  17:09, 14 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure if this is possible, but if it was, I'd probably support. There should be something like "Welcome to the RuneScape Wiki! Please read here for the rules or risk being blocked." --Oh crap... it's not ban evasion, is it? 05:19, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

The information needs to be added in the welcome message at least, if not required before registering. And speaking of, I just did two of these things recently, I think, which I didn't know were against the rules - AND I GENERALLY PAY ATTENTION AND READ!

Now, having become aware of the issues, since my stuff got reverted or deleted, I went searching for why. I discovered some vague discussion of not blanking User Talk pages, but I can't find the "Rule" against it. And yes, I've looked.

Clearly this rule needs to be put somewhere where it's findable. I hunted through the links on my welcome note in my talk page, nada. At least I didn't find it. Maybe I'm stupid?

Also, not finding the rule about personal images. I've heard references to it here and there, in discussions, but I haven't seen "The Rule" so I can read it and figure out what's allowed and what isn't.

I'm sorry to be such an idiot, but I do want to point out, if I read, and if I try to follow the rules and be a good citizen here, and I can't figure it out, how are the even more clueless supposed to do it?

Also, there are style guides around. I know, cause I've seen mentions of them when something goes wrong - indignant comments about "doesn't that idiot know X violates the style guide". Speaking as an idiot who would be thrilled to comply with a style guide, if I could find it, where the heck are these beasties? Uh, found them. Warned you before I was an idiot.

I'm sure all these items exist in logical places, and once you already know where they are, it's obvious and logical. But please look at it from the new editor perspective. I've been actively editing for a while now, and I this is one maze I haven't navigated yet. Mamabear47 21:19, 19 October 2008 (UTC)


 * ALSO (wow, I thought had got it all out of my system), also, I can't tell who admins are! When someone says, "You did that wrong", I don't know if they are speaking with an official voice or just some other editor disagreeing. This is another area where people "in the know" know what's going on, and everyone else bumbles around in the dark, likely pissing off those who already know.


 * I don't know who the admins (or whatever) are. I would like to be able to tell instantly by looking at their signature! In the game - and we model ourselves on Jagex, right? - Jagex mods and player mods have a gold or silver crown next to their nick. You know, absolutely, if someone is just spouting their own opinion or if they're speaking with authority.


 * What does this have to do with registration? Um, well, it's tenuous, BUT it's yet another area where newbies need to be encultrated, taught the rules and customs of our group, or they will either anger the "oldtimers" or get frustrated and not contribute. Mamabear47 21:26, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Knowing whom the sysops here are really shouldn't matter too much. Because this wiki follows the principle that RuneScape:All_editors_are_equal, therefore no one speaks "with authority". What SHOULD happen when someone thinks you did something wrong, is they should provide a link to the rule or guide that is relevant so you can read it. And if there is disagreement between two people after reading it, use the policys talk page or the Yew Grove for clarification and comment from others.--Varthlokkur 10:38, 20 October 2008 (UTC)


 * For your information:
 * A list of admins/sysops can be found at: RuneScape:Administrators.
 * All policies can be found at: Category:Policies
 * Any help regarding editing and such can be found at the sidebar (Monobook version) under the "Help" link. Or here: Help:Contents.
 * Several users, unregistered and registered, have been blanking their talk pages as of late (one of those links is from September, but you get the idea). This needs attention, and SOON. Need I say more?


 * Aside from just being against the rules, why does it matter if someone blanks their talk page? Does it spam recent changes or something? [[Image:Gnomegoggleswithcap.png|25px]]TEbuddy 08:01, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Favourite and Wiki worlds
Do you think there should be a ptp and ftp world that is sort of the wiki's official world? Not anything set in stone, but it would be nice to have a world where most wikians hang out on. It could be used to promote community‎Atlandy 22:36, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a great idea - it would be nice to bump into wikians out and about. ;-)  Shame we can only nominate two favourite servers.  I am usually on 84 (UK P2P) for day-to-day stuff.   03:33, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree, and world 84 happens to be my home world too :-D. Maybe have the home worlds be: World 84 for P2P and World 81 for F2P. - TehKittyCat 04:35, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Why not have the f2p world be 19, I think those two together would be quite memorable and since 19 is a 'us' world it will span that puddle of water. 16:55, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I like it, but let's set some boundries here before we make a final decision. I think these boundaries could easily be agreed on:


 * One F2P and one P2P
 * No QuickChat Worlds
 * No PvP Worlds
 * LootShare Worlds (not really mandatory, but it'd be great for Wiki Events or teaming up in training)
 * Ideally, a "neutral" world, where it has no reccomended activity (less outside intervention for those activities)
 * Ideally, not one of the first 10-20 worlds, as they can be difficult to log into.

Any objections to the above? --Pikaandpi 17:26, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Btzkillerv has entered the building!   17:06, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Wish things like this didn't get lost in the huge yew grove page....Any world is fine with me.  Perhaps a poll on the front page to let everyone vote on it? ‎[[Image:Cooked_chicken.PNG‎]]Atlandy 18:49, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with Pikaandpi's suggestion. Which worlds should we use? 02:31, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Arrgh! This is getting lost in the Yew Grove for something that is very useful!  I would recommend worlds that are pretty representative, perhaps have lootshare, and an "average" player load (not a world with a whole bunch of players typically like worlds 1 & 2).  A further suggestion would be to make the world something in England, USA, or Canada due to bandwidth needs.  I agree with the quickchat & PvP restrictions mentioned above!  I only suggest America due to a number of Americans who edit on this wiki.  How about World 28 for P2P and World 29 for F2P?  Worlds 84 & 81 are both in England (not really a big deal for me) and world 81 isn't a lootshare world, although 29 is.  Some food for thought. --Robert Horning 05:50, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * If we use Worlds 28 and 29, where would we show it? Could we put a link on the Maintop to RuneScape:Wiki world and put something on the Sitenotice? 12:39, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * i strongly recommend world 80 for a F2P world
 * Why? 12:29, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry i just remembered world 80 is PvP now, it should be world 81, because it is a transition world and not much people go on it due to regional preferences, but world 81 is also a trade center and my home world, the cons are that it has a medium-high player population 

The reason I was suggestion worlds 28 & 29 have to do with the fact that they have a high bandwidth network connection, are consecutively numbered, neither one is a themed world other than the fact that they are loot-share worlds, and otherwise fit all of the above requirements. Being consecutively numbered helps to keep track of where the member world is at if you are F2P and vice versa. I am also trying to be genuinely neutral in this selection and not just selecting it because it is my "home world" or that i have any special attraction to it. BTW, world 81 isn't a "lootshare world", if that makes this selection any easier.

Other "pairs" of servers like this include worlds 47&48 (USA), 75&76(USA), 112&113(Aus/Can), and 117&118 (Sweden). While I'm not calling Stockholm a 3rd world country for its internet connectivity, I don't know if it is the best place for a user base that is scattered around the world. I really think the selection of worlds ought to be restricted to just these five pairs of servers unless there is a very strong rationale other than "it is my home world". Worlds 28&29 are the "first" pair, using an otherwise rational approach rather than trying to get emotional here. Everybody has a world they started on or got attached to for some reason or another. My personal "favorites" are worlds 30 & 66, but I'm not trying to push either one here and only mentioning it due to disclosure of my bias. --Robert Horning 14:48, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I love the idea of "paired" worlds to make it easier to remember ‎[[Image:Cooked_chicken.PNG‎]]Atlandy 15:10, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, let's make the worlds 28 & 29. 03:47, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I already default to using world 28 when i just need to play, so I pick that one :P Kabnett 22:13, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I like world 30 (my favorite world ever) and 31 (mem but might be full) (I'm F2P) -- 01:18, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I support 28/29 even though they will have poor connection for me. We will finalise discussion in a few days to see if 28/29 is still fairly unopposed. Cheers, 13:43, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd go with 28&29. Nothing wrong with them - I rarely, if ever, have any lag problems with non-UK servers (as I live in the UK). If I lose connection, its almost always my ISP's fault. But thats beside the point. 28 and 29 are great. 17:41, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

RS:IMP
What is the process to move a proposed policy into actual policy? My guess, "Consensus", as such I'm asking for a quick vote on the Image and Media Policy.


 * Support - naturally since I am the one wanting to finalise this. 04:15, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment - Looks great, though I'm not sure about one item, that is videos not to be used in articles. We have many, many videos in articles, and I'm sure we don't want to be deleting them all. I support apart from that. Hurston 17:59, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The term 'video' seems unclear as of your posting, so along with other proposed policies these should be reviewed imo. 01:29, 15 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Support - Everything seems to be in order.-- 18:40, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment - Do project-related images include images used in the Yew Grove or in the Talk namespace (besides in signatures)? For example, if someone uploaded an image to show an example for a talk page, but the image isn't used anywhere else. 12:46, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Proposed policies
There are other Proposed policies that need to be revisited, and some of them are really, really old.
 * RS:IMP
 * RS:DSA
 * RS:RFAP
 * RS:SCOPE

On another note, I'd like to "nominate" the Quest style guide written by Endasil to be included in our official Style guide. It needs some modifications, but I think it is well written and should be made "official". 03:24, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * If Endasil's quest style guide is ready, why not go ahead and move it over to RS:QSG? 01:49, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. I've expanded the RuneScape:Quest style guide to include the layout for a quest page.  Feel free to tinker with it.   17:31, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

RFAP needs to be deleted. It's almost completely wrong (anyone can participate in RfAs and there are no prerequisites that need to be fulfilled to be nominated), the page is still under construction and its creator has left the wiki. Speedy D it.-- 17:35, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

RS:DSA
This particular proposed policy seems to be nothing more than a specific instance of the ownership and bias section of the style guide. As such I believe it would be best to redirect RS:DSA to that section of the style guide, and possibly incorporate it into the style guide as opposed to having it as it's own policy. 01:55, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * RS:DSA gives much more information than the small bullet point in the Ownership and bias section in the Style Guide. If we decide to delete the page, I think that we should give it its own subsection in the Style Guide. 13:03, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Agree ~ 17:29, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with C Teng. 17:42, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * On second thought I'm thinking maybe the subsection and the DSA policy should cross reference each other. Regardless I am not advocating the removal of any content of DSA, regardless of whether it stays in place or migrates. 07:45, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

RS:S
I'd really like to see this one brought to life (along with RS:IMP) 17:29, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Support - I agree, that's why I undeleted it.-- 17:32, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Removal of two item disambiguation pages
It's a simple idea and I just wish to see if there is a general consensus in support of it. Basically, we remove those disambiguation pages with two items, redirect it to the most likely item and insert on that articles page "X redirects here. For Y, see Z". It's faster and saves one extra click for most people and for the others, it's the same amount of clicks.-- 17:44, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Strong Support - Per Diberville. I've always hated two item disambiguation pages. Most of them have one item that would be searched more than the other, so it's annoying having to wait for both pages to load. 21:26, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Support Better to have a 50% chance of having to click again to find the article you wanted instead of 100%. 02:59, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Support - That makes sense, I assume you already have a few in mind. 09:26, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment - Don't go nuts on this concept and make it a life mission to kill every single one of these pages in this wiki, but I don't see anything wrong with eliminating disambiguation pages like is being suggested here. Use common sense here as well. I don't see why a "vote" on this really has to take place either.... just do it! This is something easily reversed and doesn't require any administrative assistance... in other words, any regular contributor to this wiki can perform these actions. --Robert Horning 12:17, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Well there is no "vote" since the wiki is not a democracy. However, history has demonstrated such as in the "Tally" fiasco that these types of small changes can lead to considerable trouble by some users so I'm nipping this possible problem in the bud by getting a general consensus before starting.-- 15:56, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I generally support this idea, however care should be taken to ensure that a disambiguation that has only two items is not lacking a tertiary prior to conversion. 02:22, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

support Its a great idea, it will save lots of time!

MediaWiki:Tips
I keep trying to think of some tips to put into this widget's page but i keep drawing a blank. Anyone have any tips they think might go good here? 03:05, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Automatically remove street price from every item page; Bot flag requested.
I wish to automatically remove the old street price field from every item page. I have written a bot and have done 60 successful test edits(I only had one problem with it creating an \n on every page, but I have since fixed that). This bot is written in python and uses pywikipedia. The source code can be found here. This bot would run for one time only, although I may ask for permission to do other jobs with the bot later on. This bot would run on TehKittyBot, a user I have created just for running as a bot and I am the only one who will be able to access it. The street price field in Template:Infobox_Item was removed shortly after the Grand Exchange was created and the exchange field replaced its use. Many old articles still have this field(around 1950 pages), and it has been said that this field can be removed from those articles in the template's talk. My bot has 2 operation modes 'assisted', where I check every edit, and 'auto', where the bot automatically says yes to the changes. Currently the bot has been running in 'assisted' and doing about 1 edit per minute. With the bot flag I will run in 'auto' mode and do 1 edit at most every 15 seconds. - TehKittyCat 04:58, 13 December 2008 (UTC).


 * I have upgraded my bot's code to use command line args instead of manually editing the code to change the pages. For example categories use -cat:Items and pages use -pages:Bow,Animal_skull.Auto(-mode:auto) mode is now the default and it has a command line arg to switch to assisted(-mode:assisted). - TehKittyCat 18:41, 13 December 2008 (UTC).


 * The amount of pages left with the field is about 950 pages, according to my more accurate search query(I removed duplicates and anything not in the mainspace). - TehKittyCat 22:02, 13 December 2008 (UTC).


 * Is there a reason you are removing the street prices here? The field has been removed from active use on the individual item pages, but I fail to see the urgency of removing it from all of the pages where it has been used.  --Robert Horning 02:27, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * That is a good question to ask someone requesting a bot flag, like me, so I will try and answer both sides of this and in detail.
 * According to Template:Infobox_Item/doc this field should be removed from old articles, but no where in that article is it said to be official policy.
 * Only 1/4 of the item articles still have it and only about 1/3-1/2 did before it was removed from some articles.
 * If street price was brought back, we would need to insert it in most of the item pages again any way.
 * I do not see the value in keeping it for historical prices, and if someone wanted to see them they could just click on a revision before I removed street price, since I use "Removing the no longer used field, street." as my edit summary.
 * I agree there is no urgency, but we might as well do it sometime, and better at once than finally finishing it at a much later time.
 * To do this fast it would be too fast for recent changes, so I would need a bot flag, even editing once every 2 minutes takes up a lot of recent changes on slower times and on fast times when it is harder to catch vandalism it would be even harder.
 * I have other reasons, but they are based on scenarios too hypothetical. I will admit had not really thought about my reasons until you asked this question, and may still not be good enough reasons. - TehKittyCat 19:07, 14 December 2008 (UTC).

I just now gave User:TehKittyBot bot status.--Richardtalk 20:59, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you every much. - 04:17, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Respecting classified information
Discuss this on RuneScape:Yew Grove/Respecting classified information. Dtm142 01:28, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

NPC Store Survey
I'm making a call to all participants on this wiki to help out in a large but focused effort to help improve the overall quality of a certain class of articles: articles about NPC stores.

What I'm hoping can be done here is to improve the consistency of information at all of the stores about the items offer for sale there, and to "raise the bar" in terms of the overall quality of the information which is presented in these articles. Some stores are simply missing articles, others are horribly written with missing or out of date information, and others are simply of outstanding quality that needs to be at least reviewed and linked to other content on the wiki. Perhaps some even deserve to be nominated for an article of the month feature.

I'm also looking to create navigation boxes based on location (aka linking all of the stores in Varrock together with a common navigation template) as well as by type (such as all of the stores that sell weapons).

Every single article about NPC stores can be improved in some manner, and it might be useful to put together a team to really look at these hard and put some depth into them.

This project is open to both F2P players and members, as there is work to be done just about everywhere. If you are new to the Runescape Wiki, this would be a fantastic opportunity for you to join into developing content where you can work with some "seasoned veterans" of the wiki process and work toward a common goal. It can even be fun trying to explore the various little corners of the game to find undocumented content and help bring it forward where it can help everybody.

If you are interested, please sign the page at The WikiGuild Proposal Page and join in the discussion and effort. Even identifying what stores there are in the game can be incredibly helpful here, much less actually documenting what is in those stores. --Robert Horning 01:35, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Desysoping Stinkowing
There are a lot of good and great administrators on this wiki. Unfortunately, like every other Wikia, there are few that have some foibles and others who's behaviour is so egregious, that their lip service to the regulations or the overall juvenility in their discourse harms the wiki and lowers its standing. Regrettably, Stinkowing is one of the latter and should have his administrator privileges revoked immediately.

First of all, when becoming an admin, Stinkowing signed this contract: ''I, Stinkowing, accept this nomination for adminship. I have read the policies concerning administrators. I realize that this nomination may fail. If I do get community consensus, I promise not to abuse my powers because I realize that this is a serious offence and if the community finds that I have done so, my powers will be revoked and in extreme cases I could be given a community ban''.

There are several past incidents that I'm sure many of you can innumerate which would give cause for the desysoping of this user but I will focus on three current events.

First of all, I would refer all of you to the user pages of Stinkowing. On his talk page, he has on top:

First of all, a user can not invent rules for their own page. Second, as an administrator, your job is to answer no personal image, why was my page deleted and other "noob" questions. This is required from you. You also don't block, you don't even rollback an edit if it was made in good faith. However on this page, beyond the terrible lack of tact, he states that he might on occasion block people who's edits were wrong but accidental. This is a minor detail. For a major one, I will now refer you to User:Stinkowing/A_message_to_EVERYONE!. I was trying to copy the most salient parts but that entire essay states that he will brazenly ignore or violate this wikis rules because some stuff annoys him. If for nothing else, this should be enough to remove his admin priviliges.

Next up is an incident that happened a few days ago. The gist of it is that someone was making a good faith edit and his article was speedy deleted twice. He was frustrated and posted "if your going to be like that i will forget you are here" on Stinkowing's page. Instead of simply repeating the event, you can read it directly here: User_talk:JJ9630. This is yet another example of immaturity and abuse of power.

Now for the proverbial straw that broke the camels back. There is a debate here as to the inclusion of classified information. I'm sure most of you read parts of it if not participated in it. There were two seemingly diametrically opposed and entrenched viewpoints as to this topic and consensus seemed impossible. But there has just been a breakthrough with both sides seeming to accept a compromise and tempers were indeed calming. And then, Stinkowing decides to post this:
 * FUCKING HELL!! What is WRONG with you people?! Jagex does NOT want their private information disclosed AT ALL! PAY ATTENTION, PEOPLE! This is the WORST pointless arguement since the Tavvy crap! DECIDE SOMETHING BEFORE I GO NUTS!!!'

and later:
 * Hahaha, pathetic. As for those of you (like Karlis, Chia, and Rendova) who are disagreeing with the bunch of reckless fools who want our beautiful wiki shut down, you know what you're doing, at least.

Any of these single examples is enough to have his rights removed and this is a clear cut case. Stinkowing has shown chronic disrespect for others, a flaunting of the rules he is supposed to uphold, abuse of power, inability to control his emotions and general immaturity. Because of this, at the very least his administration privileges should be revoked and a temporary block should perhaps be instated.

However, before any discussion takes place, I think we should give Stinkowing' a chance to state his case. And an important note: if Stinkowing agrees and is cogent of his lacunae or disagrees but accedes to the end result regardless, he can voluntarily step down immediately bring to immediate term this discussion.-- 16:37, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Seems like pretty unacceptable behavior. [[Image:Gnomegoggleswithcap.png|25px]]TEbuddy 23:44, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * * grits teeth* Thank you, Diberville. (to Tebuddy) Stay out of this until you know my view.
 * Let's get straight to the point: I've gone insane. I've just spent the last TEN hours at my mom's workplace (an elementary school) moving every last bit of her room down, and I'm BEYOND exhausted I got on the computer for some R&R...and THIS is what I see?! THIS is the rest and relaxation I GET?! Diber, what makes YOU so able to decide my fate? You're not a judge, thus, YOU alone cannot decide what happens to me. That is up to the entire active community! (also, WHY did you bold my name almost EVERY time)

Beyond that, I'm sick of this. I'm sick of the Wiki, I'm sick of the users, I'm sick of the vandals...EVERYTHING!! I wouldn't care if I was PERMABANNED BY EVERY OTHER SYSOP, I'm just SO sick of all the shit I put up with EACH AND EVERY DAY!! "Why did you delete my image?" "Why are you so rude?" WHY DO I CARE? If I'm not feeling good enough to even answer those problems, I doubt I'm GOOD ENOUGH for any of you. And that's JUST ONLINE! OFFLINE IS EVEN WORSE! I've got a grandmother with blood vessel problems in her head, a workaholic father who we're pretty sure is going half-deaf, a stressed out mother, financial difficultes, a religiously overzealous sister and brother-in-law, a new President-elect (who is not ready for the job) to worry about...and it just KEEPS GOING! The following is my current beliefs. If I mention you and you don't like what I said, TOUGH. Life hates me, and I'm going all-out here.


 * I think that the Yew Grove is nothing, but trouble. We have the wiki set against itself in the motion to reveal confidental, and the numbskulls who say it's OK to post what Jagex doesn't want known leave their poor reasons unexplained.
 * I think Dtm is indeed too draconian to the point of seeming like a cabal-leader, and is overly blunt with things.
 * I think Chiafriend is a goof-off and needs to get his priorities straight.
 * I think old editors like Eucarya and Vimes are wusses and gave up because of their laziness and uncaring attitude (have you HONESTLY looked at Eucarya's page? HE'S AN IDIOT FOR GIVING UP!).
 * I think Tebuddy and Earthere are nosy and need to stay out of other's ways of doing things.
 * I think Btzkillerv is a troublemaker, even though he's TRYING to help the wiki.
 * I think the forums are SHITTY, and need to be removed entirely.
 * I think that revoking my sysopship will hand the victory over to Total Rune. This in itself is HUMILIATING!
 * I think that Diberville needs to not judge people and seemingly deliver the verdict (AKA my death sentence)
 * I think that the wiki is at such a new low, it's below Hell. Vandals are arriving every day, and I've blocked countless amounts that weren't blocked on-sight. The community lies between breaking the law and keeping the peace currently, and I'm not dealing with that.

MY DECISION
 * Diber, I've had my say.
 * I would like my sysopship temporarily (up to a few years, and at LEAST three months) removed.
 * I would like to keep op status on IRC.
 * I am taking a long, long, LONG wiki-break, only stopping by IRC and to look up RuneScape quest guides. I don't know when I'll be back.

My only wish is that I am not banned; that would be more than just a slap in the face to me. Oh, make it TWO wishes: DO NOT ANNOUNCE THIS ON THE MAIN PAGE FOR ALL THE WORLD TO SEE. Keep this here, archive it, do whatever. I'm feeling beyond shitty now...suicidal, to an extent. I don't want to die, but I'm not taking abuse and disrespect anymore - I'm just not. If abuse and disrespect is what sysops have to feel, then I don't want any part of it. I just want to be free of any burdens that my life gives me...

Autism sucks. Depression hurts. I suffer.

--Stinkowing
 * o/t:Yer autistic? Damn, you can phrase things better than I can. WWTDD? 00:51, 18 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I am a pretty nosy person, but this is not an office where matters are discussed by you and your boss. This is a wiki where every decision is made by the community. This sounds cold, but stop acting like such a big victim. Your situation here is the result of your own behavior. As for your entire post, I think thats the reason that you don't deserve admin. Have a good break, be healthier and less stressed when you choose to return. [[Image:Gnomegoggleswithcap.png|25px]]TEbuddy 00:58, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

The explanation in fact serves as the epitome of the problem of your administratorship. You demand respect, do nothing to try and earn it and in fact show a mark disrespect to others and still condition that the rules bend around you. You have massively violated the rules that you agreed you would respect when gaining sysop and now expect that sysop to be given back to you whenever you wish. I appreciate your willingly giving up admin rights but if you wish to have it back, you will have to go through another Request for administratorship. You have given many reasons for your behaviour and I sympathize with your real life problems but this still does not change the fact that you have broken the rules for both editors and for administrators. And still, you ask that the rules be curtailed especially for you. I ask you why should we again ignore the rules and allow you to keep op status on IRC when only admins have op rights and that you have yourself banned people on IRC when they annoyed you and at other times indulged in that same jejune behaviour for which you yourself banned them? Why should the wiki make a special case for you and not announce your dysoping when we have done so in every other case, most recently, PureMexican?

Finally I ask, if someone had treated you the way you have treated others in the above mentioned examples and violated established protocols, do you even ask yourself whether or not you personally would ban that person? The rules apply equally to everyone here, be they anon IP or bureaucrat, all editors are equal and will be rewarded and punished summarily equally for their transgressions and contributions.

I think that a one month ban would be appropriate, not just for your violation of the rules but much more importantly, it would give you a guaranteed wikibreak that will allow you to cool off and to get things into perspective.-- 01:56, 18 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Per Stinko's decision, I have left Sannse a note to desysop.-- 02:12, 18 December 2008 (UTC)


 * ...DAMN, what was I fucking THINKING? I just now woke up in yet another Indiana morning...and remembered that I'm screwed here, and I feel REALLY bad for saying all those things about people like Dtm, Chia, Btzkillerv, and the like (except for Total Rune, of course). On top of that, something tells me a block IS needed...mehhhhhhhhh...I'm never gonna be liked here again...

Give Stinko another chance to prove his worth as an admin. Clearly he has the ability; why was he sysopped in the first place? A short ban may be appropriate, but don't suspend his admin powers just yet. He has some major real-life problems which are clearly contributing to his behavior on the Wiki. The ban should give Stinko some time to think about this, and hopefully he will return with a new attitude. If possible, do not ban him at all. He might need a getaway from those problems, and being banned may deprive him of this.

However, I fear his admin powers have already been removed.

Stinko, I understand that your real life problems are difficult to cope with. Everyone has been greatly depressed at some point, including me. I don't know what's going to happen, but if you are given a temporary ban and do decide to return, I'll still be here. :)  16:15, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

18:43, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) Firstly, I think that using the page in a nutshell for rules is a great idea, and is NOT an offense, as they are user talk rules, not decrees that get you banned if you don't obey. Also, it's his page, nothing, nothing, should be put on trial if it is on someones personal userpages unless it actually fully breaks one of the actual RSwiki rules.
 * 2) Secondly, Stinko, I was more for the offer of perhaps demoting you to rollbacker temporarily or something before I read your verdict. However, who are you to personally abuse people, just because they don't fall into the line of your side, just because they have a different view, that is horrible.Also, orderign people about just becaus ethey made an edit before you is un called for. Tebuddy did no wrong, and if i were him, I would have actually written a  complaint.
 * 3) Thirdly, So what If you've got problems at home? Everyone does. I'm still at school, and have been told that unless i treble my Religous Education grade, I can't take subjects early, although I'm already working at university level. Your hom life is not a safetynet, you still have a choice about your actions,
 * 4) You leave President Elect Obama alone. If there ever was a time for him to come to power, it's now.--
 * 5) My Verdict: Permanent Ban, Why should Stinko be able to abuse us then tell us that we can't ban him. He deserbes more in my opinion.
 * Zilenserz and Stinkowing, leave politics out of this discussion. There is no need to bring Obama into this.-- 19:00, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I kinda jumped when I read the Obama reference 2 spots above. Agreed, let's leave politics out of this before I transform into a werewolf... I mean paulbot o.O 19:51, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * In this situation, I have to agree. Stinkowing, I hate to oppose you, but I support the wikia in desysoping you from your powers.  Why?

Well, after reading the evidence given to me, especially your outbursts, I have to agree that you outbursts of anger definately warrent to the desysoping of your powers, at least. A ban would be overpowered, in my opinion, because I feel that the temporary desysoping of his powers would suffice for a reasonable punishment. I feel that, when you feel that you have far more control of your emotions, especially your anger, then perhaps you should try regaining your previously held powers.

But until the effects of time heal your wounds, and until you gain far more control of your emotions, specifically your anger, I highly suggest you step down from your position of power.--Pkthis 20:36, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Zilenserz, you just compared your home problem, which is a bad grade, with Stinko's, which include financial problems, a father going half-deaf, a grandmother with blood vessel problems, and basically all-around family problems. 20:37, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

PLEASE REMOVE THIS LINK FROM MAIN PAGE - I'm terribly sorry and I support this thread but this is getting too serious. Not as an editor, but as a Professional Support Worker and a Therapist for those with Autism, Epilepsy, CP, etc, this conversation cannot continue. Stinkowing has made suicidal threats and provoking this discussion is a hazard to his health. I have requested support from Central and this discussion needs to end. End his sysops powers, grant him his leave and close this ASAP. Thanks!

20:44, 18 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Um, I don't see it on the Main Page. Are you referring to the template with headlines at the top of your screen? Butterman62 (talk) 20:47, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Pkthis and pretty much everyone else. I think Stinkowing's adminship should be removed and he should be given a one month ban to cool off. Stinkowing I really think you need a wikibreak and I feel a one month ban from the wiki, forums and IRC would be beneficial to you. I wish you the best of luck in life and I hope you work everything out. I also strongly recommend family counseling. Sir Lenehan  21:16, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

I never lost respect for anything you said, Stinko. Maybe because you didn't mention me :x 22:33, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Support permanent deadminship and one month block. I do not appreciate being called a "reckless fool who wants to get the wiki shut down" or a "draconian cabal leader" (which is it?). I do not mind if you disagree with me, but trolling and attacks cannot be tolerated. This incivility is unacceptable and bad faith assumption. For these reasons alone, Stinkowing should be desysopped and given a one month block. Dreadnought's incivility was far lesser compared to this, but he was rightfully desysopped. I suggest a block (at least one month) and deadminship until a successful RFA is completed.

I understand that you are going through personal traumas, but you are not alone. I am sure that every editor has problems in their life, but that does not excuse severe violations of the user treatment policy. I suggest that you seek counselling if you are depressed, that you recognize your worth in life (your life is valuable to God and your family/friends; they do not want it to go to waste), and most important of all that you stay away from the wiki. This website is obviously not helping your situation, and your recent actions have hurt the wiki. You need a wikibreak until you are feeling better about yourself. I wish you the best of luck, and I hope that you will one day return as a much better user. Dtm142 22:55, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Although I strongly disagree that Stinkowing's sysop powers be removed, I agree with Bonziiznob. If you have to, block him, desysop him, and give him the wikibreak. I also completely agree with Tienjt0's opinion. 04:21, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

After careful consideration, I've decided to support both a one month block and desysoping. Stinkowing, your behavior has been unacceptable and is inexcusable, in the past week alone you've improperly blocked a user, participated in flaming, improperly closed an RfA on the assumption of bad faith, and have made personal attacks against your fellow editors, these alone are worthy of an indefinite block. All editors are equal and you are no exception. Sysops are suppose to uphold the rules they enforce, not blantantly flaunt their breaking of them. Watching your actions I have honestly said to myself on multiple occasions "he's lucky he's already a sysop, because he'd never pass an RfA today acting that way..." Stinkowing, you are a good person, and I do like you; however, for the good of the wiki (as well as yourself), and to uphold the rules, this seems to be the most appropriate option.-- 17:35, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Wow... Err... This is the first post to this section in like 10 days so I hope I'm not doing anything wrong but... I think Stinko should be blocked from the wiki for at leasat a month, and after that he can decide if he wants to come back. I don't think he should be desysopped because Stinkowing has been a great user and a good sysop, and perhaps if he returns from wikibreak as a more mature person he can still make use of these powers. If Stinko is desysopped, it shouldn't be permanent. He should be able to hold an RFA to get his sysop powers back after he has shown that he can handle himself. Good luck stinko, hope you can get those irl problems sorted out :). 02:36, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Give him another chance per Tienjt -- 19:08, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

A comment from Total Rune

 * Hi, I'm Total Rune. Before you go to remove this comment due to my infamy here, please fully read this. I was directed here by my friend Daedryon. He told me he was personally worried about Stinkowing, as he had read Stinko is autistic and contemplating suicide.

Firstly, Stinko, I want to fully apologize to you, as well as the entire RuneScape Wikia, for my actions, which I am thinking are one of the lesser reasons behind this current change in your life. Speaking man to man Stinkowing, I know what you're going through. Believe me, I've thought about it too. But it's not the right thing to do. There are many people in this world who care about you, and would blame themselves if you did go through with suicide. What you need right now is someone to talk to, to open up to and discuss your problems with. I want to direct you, if you are reading this, to this site: Suicidal Help Group on IMVU. This is where I went when I was feeling down. The owner of the group is a close personal friend of mine, and she's helped me through alot. You won't be criticized or anything on this site.

Onto the autism. I also know abit about autism, as my cousin is full-on autistic, and currently in a group home for children with autism. Autism is a tough thing to live with, but I can't vouch for that, as I'm not autistic, but actually ADHD.

I'm gonna end this reply now. Stinko, if you are reading this, and you need someone to talk to one on one, you can always email me or add me on MSN, my msn is quotetheraven666@live.ca, or as I suggested above, try the Suicidal Help Group on IMVU. We care about you Stinko, and I know I speak for the RuneScape Wikia when I say we'd miss you terribly if you did die. 76.76.3.121 04:46, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, also, I forgot to say, about Stinko's comment "I think that revoking my sysopship will hand the victory over to Total Rune. This in itself is HUMILIATING!", believe me Stinko, you getting your sysop status revoked does not make it a victory for me. All I care about is seeing you get some help, because I'd hate to hear that you killed yourself =( 76.76.3.121 04:49, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Staff note
Hi all, I've been asked to look in here... I can see that tempers are frayed, and think the advice to take some time away to calm is good. Stinkowing, we have talked offline before iirc, and you are welcome to email me again so we can talk about what's going on here on the wiki. Thanks all -- sannse (talk) 21:47, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

My view
When I was a noob on this wiki he wouldn't just explain if I put a personal picture on the wiki that else I could use Photobucket or something, he just explained it more roughly. I ended up deleting my talk-page items from being embarrassed. Just to be evil, give him a ban - would show him to act more nicely.-- 01:04, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That's kinda like... Vicious and vengeful... 01:15, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * >.< well -points at Stink and cries. Playing; well what can I say? Just agreeing he's not the type of people who are nice, let's say. -- 01:24, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That was VERY mean of you to say that out of spitefulness and hatred. I have feelings, too, Boilar.
 * Yeah well, should've thought about MY feelings first before pointing out like I'm a fool. Everyone is a noob at the start you should respect that. -- 23:47, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You are being VERY disrespectful right now. I'm done with you. Seriously. You have proven to me that you are not able to act civil towards me. Now stop making me look bad, because I could explode again, and I DON'T want that happening.


 * Please, Boilar, this discussion doesn't need to be any more charged than it is. Stinkowing has edited on this wiki with good faith for quite some time and has made several very positive contributions to this wiki.  There may be some immaturity displayed here, but all of us make mistakes from time to time.


 * Stinkowing, I'm sorry that discussions have to go on like this. Calm down and ignore petty little personal attacks like this.  I'm sorry that you have to read this sort of stuff, and I would have to agree that what was said here is very disrespectful.  Ignore it all for the moment and relax.  I'd like to see you remain here on this wiki and help us to make a better guide for other Runescape players to use.  That is your choice, and I hope that you choose to continue your participation here.  --Robert Horning 05:20, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Adding Forumadmin to UserRights.
With the recent requests for the forumadmin permission, I was wondering if it is possible to add the following lines to the LocalSettings file. (I’m assuming that each wiki has it’s own LocalSettings.php, and that staff are willing to edit it.)
 * $wgGroupPermissions['bureaucrat']['forumadmin'] = true; # Gives bureaucrats forum adminship. (optional, with consensus)
 * $wgGroupPermissions['forumadmin']['forumadmin'] = true; # Gives forumadmins forum adminship.
 * $wgAddGroups['bureaucrat'] = array( 'forumadmin', 'current_groups...' ); # Bureaucrats can add forumadmin.
 * $wgRemoveGroups['bureaucrat'] = array( 'forumadmin', 'current_groups...' ); # Bureaucrats can remove forumadmin.

Adding these lines would prevent having to call a staff member over every time someone needs the forumadmin permission, and would also get forumadmin to appear on the UserRights page again. Remember, all forumadmins can do over sysops is create stickies, announcements, and polls on the forums. 03:47, 18 December 2008 (UTC)


 * If it's possible I support. It'd make things a bit easier. 04:00, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * We can't do anything with LocalSettings; only Wikia staff can fiddle around with that.--Richardtalk 04:11, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I was planning on getting consensus here, and then taking it to staff. 04:15, 18 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I believe this wiki to be stable enough and with a large enough group of users that this is a reasonable request. I'm not sure what Wikia policy is for making changes of this nature, but anybody who has become a bureaucrat on this wiki ought to be mature enough to responsibly use these permissions without creating a mess here.  I certainly support this action in terms of building a consensus to present to Wikia.  --Robert Horning 13:07, 18 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I support this idea completley! It really annoys people when you have to wait a long time for staff to grant the ability to that user. 16:00, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

If that was even possible, I'd be a forumadmin by now. It can't be done, it would seem. 22:52, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Couldn't we always send a request to a wikia staff member so they can add a special group of administrators called 'fourm admins'?--Pkthis 21:29, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Support Why not? We could always use a select group of people to patrol the fourms. It would be similar to having rollback users, except in this case, they are trusted with fourm powers. Although not necessicary, I do believe that being an active fourm admin could also help with nomination, provided that the fourm admin makes accurate use of their powers.--Pkthis 21:29, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The forumadmin permission already exists, but only staff members can add it. All sysops are already moderators on the forums and can lock, move, delete, ect.  20:51, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I actually am supposed to be a forumadmin, but central can't even give me the powers due to technical problems. This could pose a problem for letting the wiki's crats even do this. 23:34, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Support - If the option is possible, then by all means have it added, the more autonomous the wiki is, the better.-- 21:02, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Support- better late than never. 23:14, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I've asked Sannse to make the changes. 22:27, 24 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Support - it'd be good and helpful. And would it be a voting process or something like the rollback requests. Cheers, 09:16, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Support - That's a great idea. I know Dtm tries his best, but perhaps one or two more users to create stickies and polls would be helpful. I don't think it's a good idea to give it to crats automatically though. Not everyone on the wiki is active on the forums, and so only those users who could really make the best out of forumadmin should have it given to them, not just crats/sysops. To become a forumadmin, however, users should have to show that they can make good use of the powers. For example, they must have a certain number of posts, must be mature on the forums (and wiki), must have been on the forums for a certain amount of time, if they're a sysop they should have made use of their sysop powers on the forums, etc... 00:43, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Just to let you know that the changes to the code to allow bureaucrats to make forumadmins have been made, but won't go live until next Tuesday... we haven't put anything new on the site over the holiday, just to be on the safe side. -- sannse (talk) 16:23, 30 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks Sannse! It is appreciated.  Is this just for RS Wiki, or is this something across all Wikia sites?  Regardless, this can be quite useful.  Thanks again!  --Robert Horning 17:45, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * This setting only applies to wikis using the phpbb forums (which is about 3 wikis iirc). Those are not supported any more, so no new wikis will be getting them.  Other wikis use the wiki forum set-up instead. -- sannse (talk) 19:29, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks Sannse! Maybe now we should create a new section in RFA for Requests for Forum Adminship! Oh and guys remember forumadmin is sorta like crat in how there's really no limit to the amount of sysops/forum mods we can have, but there should be a limmit to the amount of bureaucrats/forumadmins we have at one time. Forumadmin is just an addition to forum mod/sysop, just like bureaucrat is just an addition to sysop. 18:12, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You do have to be a sysop to be a forum mod, but you don't have to be a sysop to be a forumadmin, correct? 18:14, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, yes that's how I think it works, but its' probably possible to make people forum mods, we're just not going to do that because we have sysops. 18:31, 30 December 2008 (UTC)


 * No, this is something that is completely different. You can be a forum admin and not a "sysop" (aka Administrator), both, or just a "sysop".  Bureaucrats can give themselves this authority, and I think it is reasonable to assume that bureaucrats can give themselves this authority without a wiki-wide vote.  As for where to apply for forum admin status.... I'll leave that to others to decide.  I'm assuming that a request on RuneScape:Requests for adminship would be appropriate to become a forum admin as well.  This authority gives those with this permission set to be able to act as moderators on the forums associated with this wiki.  This should be a "no big deal" type of request like admins, but should be for those who spend time on the forums and can help keep this under control --Robert Horning 18:30, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes that's what he's saying about the forumadmin/sysop/forum mod/crat thing. And I think we should start working on RFFA (req. for forum admin) right away. It should be similar to an RFB because... Because of the giant reason thing I posted above... And instead of the table thing saying "RFB? - yes or no" it should ask for the actual type of Request, so for example instead of it being yes or no, you would either put "sysop", "bureaucrat", or "forumadmin". I know there's going to be a ton of requests once we get this going, but how many forumadmins do you guys think there should be at one time? I think anywhere from three to five is good, any less would be OK, but it's nice to have a few more, and any more than that would be too much (we only need a couple people to make stickies and such, since it's only an addition to forum mod). 18:37, 30 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The exact number of forum admins is mostly irrelevant. We need a couple, and those should be highly trusted individuals.  The problem with bureaucrats is that if they all disappear for some reason, we have to appeal to Wikia central to make a new bureaucrat... and that can sometimes be a hassle.  At least with bureaucrats and this new bureaucrat ability, we can internally create new forum admins without having to go to Wikia central any more even if all of the forum admins are gone.  That should factor into the issues for moderating the forums as well including the number of folks that need to be involved.  --Robert Horning 18:53, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * (New indent) We should start creating an RFFA page or just add it into the RFA page, and by the time the new forum admin feature is actually added, we should be just starting the requests. 19:08, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I started making a draft a while ago here. Feel free to edit. Butterman62 (talk) 19:44, 30 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Mine was already successful, right? Or would I have to go through the whole RFFA (as opposed to RFA) thing again as the consensus was reached on the "wrong" page? :p 02:22, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol do you really think we're that mean? We wouldn't do that to you lolz, that's like saying "Ok well this man was found innocent after being accused of murder, but now that the judge is dead, we need to put him on trial once again." 02:44, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

RfA Questions
I was taking a look at the Wikipedia RfAs and I noticed that all nominees are automatically asked three questions:

1. What administrative work do you intend to take part in?

2. What are your best contributions to Wikipedia, and why?

3. Have you been in any conflicts over editing in the past or have other users caused you stress? How have you dealt with it and how will you deal with it in the future?

Users are then allowed to ask additional question, and then comes the commenting/supporting/opposing.

I just thought this might be a useful add-on to the RfAs as the community would be able to look at how sysops/b'crats would handle certain situations and how they have contributed to this wiki without having to go on just the comments/supports/opposes and the nomination to form their own opinion.

What do you all think? 21:40, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Support - First, I would want world piece, lol. I support this. In self-nominations, this should be part of a new mandate that is discussed and followed. As a person being nominated, candidates should be allowed to extend to the nomination and fill in this information in addition. Nice research soldier. 03:48, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Couldn't agree more with that, Bonzii. :) 15:59, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Support Although I do believe that the questions asked for a request to be an admin should be a bit more rigorous (For example, one question that could be asked is "Are you capable of handling extra responsibility with the powers that may be given to you?"), I do believe adding these questions will be a great start in improving our requests for adminship.--Pkthis 21:21, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Those don't have to be the questions used, those were just the questions I copied and pasted from Wikipedia to use as an example. 21:47, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Support - Good idea 08:55, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Also, if you have any suggestions for questions we could use then feel free to put them on the table. 04:39, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Support - Great add-on to RFAs. Kudos 2 U Talk! Edit count! Contribs! 19:07, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Support - Good idea. It would also put pressure on those people who join up the straight away request adminship. But it doesn't concern me because I'm already an Admeanie :P 09:08, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Support - As per Chicken. I've seen way too many people with barely 50 edits want to jump on the admin wagon, I on the other hand actually avoided it for awhile until I can't remember who pointed out ways it made sense for me. 15:43, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Didn't it take like 3 people telling you it would be good for you? And not out of any "I told you so" but have you found it to be very helpful?--Degenret01 10:05, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

RuneScape:Administrator requests
I've created a new page that is intended to help provide a central location for general and hopefully trivial requests that require administrator tools, but can be dealt with by any administrator and not somebody in particular. I've had some requests of this nature on my talk page, and it was something noted in the discussion about User:Stinkowing.

Frankly, I think is message on User:Stinkowing/Main Page/A message to EVERYONE! has some validity in terms of having one person get bombarded with requests for this, that and the other thing, where some admins can get overwhelmed trying to please everybody on everything. There are enough administrators here that we can certainly help share some of this work, and I'd hate to see requests for administrator actions not get accomplished just because a particular admin is overwhelmed at the moment with stuff that happens in life.

At the moment, this is just a proposal of an idea, but I would like to add a link to this page on the side bar and at the top of the Yew Grove... and elsewhere on this wiki as appropriate. I would also strongly encourage administrators to put this page on their watch list. It is not intended to be a substitute for the Yew Grove, but I am hoping that some of the more mundane requests that do show up on the Yew Grove can be moved to this page instead. --Robert Horning 18:53, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I like it. It seems useful and would make it easier for all admins as well as saving a lot of time. Full support. 19:13, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Great Idea- This is a great idea. As per the perfect example of Stinkowing, this would benefit both the needs of users and it's active administrators. 20:24, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Support - Good one 10:49, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes - I've already added this to my watch list. 11:21, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Animations
First I have to say; Yes I tried to get GIF. files from WMV. but it just doesn't work. WMV is movie sorted and GIF is signature short clips in low quality.

Why not just let me upload WMV. files and increase the HD animations in the wiki? -- 00:49, 30 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Whats going on? [[Image:Gnomegoggleswithcap.png|25px]]TEbuddy 08:23, 30 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The problem with the WMV file format is that it is a proprietary file format that requires special permissions just to be able to write some software that uses that file format. It requires signing contracts with Microsoft, payment of royalties, and several other legal hassles that simply make it unreasonable for a free-software (remember, MediaWiki is a GPL'd "open source" application) developers to support.  This isn't a decision made here by local administrators, but a much bigger problem than you are suggesting here.


 * Animated GIF images are something that is supported within most major web browsers... in fact for nearly the whole history of the web browsers. While clunky and awkward to use, at least these images load on nearly every graphical web browser on nearly ever operating system that can read this website.  That certainly isn't the case with WMV files as well.


 * Essentially, unless you are willing to negotiate a contract with Microsoft and can also simultaneously get all of the major web browser developers to offer native support of the MWV file, there isn't going to be an easy way to add this file type onto these web pages. Yes, there are some "media converters", but that requires even more software and licenses and other problems.


 * If you need help and guidance with making animated GIF images, depending on what exactly you are trying to achieve, I and others here on this wiki can suggest some software packages to help you out here. I'm sorry this isn't easier to do, and I would agree, in a perfect world you shouldn't have to worry about file format conversion issues.  Unfortunately, real world politics intrude even on this rather mundane level.  --Robert Horning 13:53, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Requests
I am requesting an admin to un-delete the article 24 December, as per the conversation below:

24 December
I am interested in why you deleted the content on this page. Yes, the information is about a specific character but that was not the intent of the article, it is Runescape History that a player has received 200M experience in 4 skills, and as an encyclopedia dedicated to RuneScape, we should cover more content then just in game information. Perhaps a revision to dis-include the name, but not the deletion. If you read on other articles, such as 200 million experience you will find information about specific players. Why is this information not removed cause it is player specific. Please un-delete the article and if necessary remove the player's name, and if this is not the case, I will request it from other administrators or complete a vote for un-deletion. Thanks.

P.S. If you are going to delete an article, please complete the task and remove all links to this article as leaving behind Red Links is very unprofessional.

22:40, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

RE: 24 December
Firstly, it'd be rather hard to prove. Secondly, there was a discussion in the Yew Grove a while back about whether or not players need their own pages. Thirdly...I get lazy sometimes. ...I think that's all. WWTDD? 22:48, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Deletion
Lazy in not an excuse to not preform your administrative duties. Why would you delete an article and not continue to remove all other pages that contains this article as a link? Please un-delete this article and change what is necessary. It is encyclopedic to RuneScape as history has been made on this day.

22:54, 30 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Here is the content from there, we can discuss the relevance of its undeletion or not on a more appropriate forum...

200M in 4 Skills
On 24 December, Gertjaars became the first player to achieve 200M experience in 4 skills. These skills are Cooking, Fletching, Firemaking and Crafting. He also surpassed previous number 1 player, Zezima, for the most experience for a player.


 * Frankly, I think the deletion was appropriate and the content needed to go, although it certainly isn't "confidential" or anything radical. There just isn't any need for stuff like this on the wiki.  Copy this if you want it, as it will be removed from this page soon enough.  --Robert Horning 23:17, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * From the content, the article qualified as a player article and therefore is subject to speedy deletion.-- 23:24, 30 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment - But it's not the fact it is a specific player, it's the fact RuneScape History was made. Can't we re-word it the say On 24 December, the first player in history attained 200M experience is 4 skills, being Cooking, Fletching, Firemaking and Crafting. They also attained the highest experience points on a single account. or something like that? It's not about identifying the user, it' about the history of RuneScape that was made.

23:36, 30 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Take this discussion to the RS:YG if you want to get some wider input on it. This is not the appropriate forum for discussing this issue.  --Robert Horning 04:37, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * As has been done 05:57, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

The delete seems quite right to me. I have stated before that any mentioning of players in articles could open a door to all sorts of "so what" type information, and here is a great example. Good for Gertjaars, but it is highly irrelevant. It has absolutely no impact on the game, the community, or anything else. --Degenret01 06:50, 31 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm gonna have to agree with Degenret. It's basically a player article. 06:52, 31 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay, so let me get this right. Even if I change the article to say On 24 December, the first player in history attained 200M experience is 4 skills, being Cooking, Fletching, Firemaking and Crafting. They also attained the highest experience points on a single account. you don't agree that this is in encyclopedic information about RuneScape. HISTORY was made this day! If we are not going to discuss the importance of RuneScape's history, I propose deleting the Andrew Gower page etc. It has no significance to the game, but it does it's history. Come on people, it's not a player's article. It's all about good intention, and that's what I have. If you guys really don't want it in, fine, I'll drop it, but I think it is important. Honor the history!!!!!!!!

07:12, 31 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Lets compare what I said to what you responded to. I said "It has absolutely no impact on the game, the community, or anything else". Your saying we can delete Andrew Gower on the same premise? Really? I think your getting a little worked up man. And yes, even without his name in the article, I do not see it as worth anything.--Degenret01 07:22, 31 December 2008 (UTC)


 * There is a major difference between a player achieving a lot of experience in their skills and the man who created the game.-- 07:25, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

*sigh* I was honestly hoping more from you guys and am extremely disappointed. This wikia is about information, not censoring the facts. Okay, if it what you guys want then that is okay with me. You are both trusted editors, respectable sysops and whom intent is and always will be for this wikia. If you feel it is not suitable I will not push it any longer. Note though: RuneScape's history is as important to players, users and fellow editors. Censoring the content of made history just limits this wikia. It's against the policies and procedures to create a player article (though I was trying to make it so it was not one) but in those policies and procedures it states that some things can be hindered to benefit. Prime example being the slang dictionary right. It is not directly related to the game, just an extra for the convenience of the user. RuneScape history is made and charted in the article 200 million experience, and players are mentioned in this article without censorship. Why are some articles allowed this privilege to document but not other when the intent is the same? Please don't respond to this but just think about irony and how consistent this is to the policies and procedures. It's really confusing.

I am going to end my involvement with this Yew Grove discussion. Thanks for your input and look forward to serving this wikia with you in the future.

P.S. I'm looking forward to future discrepancies. They are fun aren't they? :)

07:48, 31 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment I guess this discussion is over but I'd like to point out that a lot of other date articles have information about players achieving 99 in certain skills or experience. [[Image:Rollbackcrown.PNG‎]] Kudos 2 U Talk! Edit count! Contribs! 10:11, 31 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment: Thanks Kudos!! Some being Level 99 skills, Hiscores, 200 million experience and more. 10:15, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment - Actually, what I meant even more was an article such as 14 June, which mentions Zezima getting 1 billion experience. [[Image:Rollbackcrown.PNG‎]] Kudos 2 U Talk! Edit count! Contribs! 10:23, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

I have seen such information vandalised with people putting their own names in rather, than the person who actually did get first to 99 or whatever, and how are we supposed to know unless they are very well known? I'm not sure why this player related stuff is in these articles at all. Most of it has only survived because it is embedded in larger articles, not that it should, but creating an article purely about one person should rightly have been deleted. 11:05, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Comment on user info - The toughest problem I find with information about individual user accomplishments is mainly one of verifiability. Yes, I know you can look at the high scores page for top users and find what their skill levels are right now, but it is difficult to "go back in time" and find who was the "first" to reach a certain accomplishment like the first to get level 99 in Summoning. I admit that this particular accomplishment by Gertjaars is something of a singular accomplishment in the annals of players in the game, and that getting to max experience points is something of a game itself.

I still think, in spite of what is a remarkable accomplishment, it still isn't remotely notable in that this particular user did nothing that has any sort of long-term impact on the game. If this player suddenly stopped playing, would anything in the game be different? Besides besting high scores, what else has been accomplished? To me, that is just a rather empty accomplishment, even if it is something of note between one player and another. Then again, I consider people who compare combat levels and skill levels to a bunch of kids trying to compare various parts of their anatomy to each other trying to suggest who is bigger or not. With few exceptions, it really doesn't matter a whole lot. --Robert Horning 09:04, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Request to review Puremexican's use of admin tools
This is a request for the community to review Puremexican's use of his admin tools, as I have some concerns about his actions.

First of all, I do not think that Puremexican left the wiki in good standing, and do not understand why he was resysopped. When saying he was leaving for good, he made personal attacks on other users on his userpage, and apparently blocked Christine for fun.

Now that he has his powers back, he has made several, in my opinion, inappropriate actions. For example,


 * Thinking it is okay to block before reviewing, a clear violation of RS:AGF
 * Insulting those he has blocked, feeding the trolls, violating the User treatment policy
 * Blocking users without assuming good faith, such as when a user accidentally forgot a "0" at the end of a Grand Exchange price ,
 * Using other users for what seems like his own testing purposes
 * Blocking an IP with absolutely no contributions (unless they were deleted, which is not stated in his block summary), in which he made a comment that the said IP was homosexual, again violating RS:UTP.
 * Blocking a user who only made this good-faith contribution, allegedly "for being retarded", again UTP.

...and these are just a few.

We cannot create an environment that is this hostile to newcomers. They are our most valuable source, and without them, the wiki would not be as good as it is today, because we were all newcomers once. In addition, our policies are here to help maintain a good atmosphere and help the encyclopedia flourish. If someone violates them, it degrades those goals.

When Puremexican became an admin, he signed this contract:

''I, Puremexican, accept this nomination for adminship. I have read the policies concerning administrators. I realize that this nomination may fail. If I do get community consensus, I promise not to abuse my powers because I realize that this is a serious offence and if the community finds that I have done so, my powers will be revoked and in extreme cases I could be given a community ban.''

Personally, I think he has failed to live up to this contract. I am trying to assume good faith of him. However, his actions are harming the development of our users and the wiki, and he either needs to stop these actions or have his admin powers removed. Butterman62 (talk) 22:22, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment 24.31.187.36 - Heres what the I.P. did. Check the deleted user contributions. He created a page called Tip.It. and put (content was: ' PWNS!* *Deletion of this article is an admission of flamboyant homosexuality.') The comment on "Homosexuality" was mere irony. As for blocking that I.P./User that made a mistake forgetting to put a 0 or something, I am only human, and being such, I made a mistake. , 23:30, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * As for the rest of it I leave it for community discretion., 23:32, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Support Demotion to Rollback - Sysops are entrusted with a lot of power over the wiki. Misuse of this trust is not very great in means of providing a very community based setting for our users. Puremexican also stated that on Soldier 1033's RfA that he Opposed for specific reasons, then supported because he felt his oppose was cause he was having a bad day. Sysops need to be consistent with all there edits and beliefs. I too changed my supports in this RfA, but that is because I found additional information to persuade my edit, not because I was having an off day. I wish for Puremexican to continue to support and edit this wikia, but as a Rollback. 23:50, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Stay a sysop - He's not the only admin who has ever assumed bad faith. 00:56, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Another RFA All Sysops should be at least considerate, esp to other sysops. Calling everyone out when he quit is not the quality of an admin. ‎Atlandy 20:34, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Do another RfA - Sorry, but since the time you left and when you came back, the expectations for administrators grew. Not to mention you didn't leave the most honorably. You asked to have your powers removed over a year ago (I think), and I would imagine that you would have to complete another RfA, with expectation inflation and all. If X1011 were to come back (of whom I do not know at all), I wouldn't be suprised if he had to do another RfA himself. When he was sysopped, there was no expectation. The same applies here, but to a lesser extent. 01:30, 1 January 2009 (UTC) (Edit conflict)

Stay a sysop A few mistakes do not constitute removal of power. TEbuddy 02:55, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Desysop if one actually spends a few minute looking at the examples cited above, it is CLEAR he is abusing his powers. How did he even get those tools back when he rejoined? Assuming good faith is critical. I think very very hard every time I have to hit block on someone. I try to imagine how the edit could be an accident before I pull the trigger. I may have made a few mistakes but I really hope not. It's what all sysops should be doing, and he does not. He can contribute for a month or two then do another RFA.--Degenret01 08:17, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Stay a sysop Really torn about this one as while I am trying to assume he's not abusing his powers because his normal edits are constructive, it is clear that he's left some personal attacks and may have abused his rights, however, I am inclined to trust him and I think that he will do much more good than bad if he remains a sysop as he is on a lot and blocks true vandals most of the time, with only a few instances of uncertain use of blocks. Kudos 2 U Talk! Edit count! Contribs! 10:14, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Neutral/Do another RfA - Although he's made his share of errors, he is only human. As for the "for being homosexual" summary when he blocked an IP, I don't think that was a good choice of words for the summary but if you saw the article that IP created you'd agree that the block was fair. I was the one that tagged that page for deletion. As for the other mistakes, he definitely isn't the first admin to make mistakes like that. If he absolutely must then another RfA might need to be started, but I believe in giving people second chances and overall I see that Puremexican has done a lot more good than harm. In my opinion he should either do another RfA or retain his admin privileges. 04:03, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I didn't call him a homosexual, look at the content that was on the page he created. "Deleting this page is a flamboyant sign of homosexuality". Then look at my block summary., 14:53, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Pending - I'm not too sure about this one, I'm particularly confused about the circumstances under which his powers were reinstated. Dtm resysoped him with the comment 'Requested sysop powers - as he had left on good terms, he can be given adminship'. Was Dtm unaware of some of the leaving presents left by PureMexican? If the above revelations concerning PureMaxican would have meant that Dtm would not have given him his powers back had he known, then Desysop/RFA would be appropriate. 15:36, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

RFA Request - I saw some of the posts made, and honestly felt like it was not something an Admin should say or do... Eternalseed

Comment - At this point I could care less what happens to my powers. As I have seen in past RfA's (not mine) my opinion/attempt to "fend" for myself does not matter. Whats done is done and I can't change that no matter how much i regret doing so. In the end, if you want to reap my powers because of a couple misjudged mistakes fine. If not thats great too., 20:32, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Puremexican, my goal is not to get you desysopped. My goal is to get these things to stop (sorry I didn't make that clear earlier). If you just want to go "Okay, I won't do it anymore", I'll drop the whole thing now. Butterman62 (talk) 22:58, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * If thats the case you could have taken this up with me on my talk page before going through all this trouble. It would have made me see my errors and taught me to be more careful..., 00:18, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, that was my mistake. I've had bad experiences before doing that (not on this wiki, but elsewhere), with a message along the lines of "Go away, or else", and further rage ensuing of said people I talk to. I've got to remember that things are different here. So, it's over? :) Butterman62 (talk) 01:42, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I guess so? :)?, 03:20, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Keep admin rights So what? He made some mistakes, big deal. Everyone is human and there is always the chance of mistakes in one's life. I'm certain he has learned from his mistakes. For the last couple of weeks since his return, I have seen many positive edits, many good things he has done. There is no reason to demote him for something that was done over 7 months ago. I feel that he will do a lot of great edits staying a sysop. --http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk119/spencemac724/thheadshot-1.png  Spencer   TalkundefinedContribsundefinedEdits  21:13, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * All the edits are from about one week ago to now, except for the ones concerning his resysopping. That's what concerns me. Had they been from that long ago, I wouldn't be as concerned. Butterman62 (talk) 22:54, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

New RfA - I don't care what anyone thinks of ME when I write this, it is about Puremexican. I don't understand why his powers were just given back to him either. But regardless, if he seems unfit, then they should be removed. If people think that he is fine, then he should not have to worry about completing another RfA successfully. Clearly blocking me for fun was stupid. What's worse what making a video of it and posting it on youtube. Adding the "flamboyant sign of homosexuality" to the block reason cannot be justified by "he did it first" because doing what Puremexican did was just feeding the trolls (along with the other edits and blocks that Butterman mentioned above), and this is something an admin should not do. I don't care if people don't like me, but it cannot be argued that I ever blocked anyone for fun, nor left in a huff and insulted people on my userpage. So no mentions of hypocrisy or any comments about MY behaviour here, this isn't about me. I don't see why a new RfA would be a big deal. Christine 02:25, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Ahaha. I knew that he would remove that video if I posted the link here. For anyone who would like to see it, I've saved a version. You can download it here. Chia has seen it, he should vouch for the authenticity. Someone tell me if the file and/or link doesn't work properly. Christine 19:27, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I closed the account and the warning said the videos and channel would remain on there..., 19:29, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * =/ 19:31, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Blogging option for RS Wiki
The following message was posted on my user talk page today:

Newspaper - random thought

 * I saw the discussion on the Runescape newspaper - very exciting!
 * I don't know if this would help or not, but Wikia recently launched a collaborative blog tool, that lets many people write their own blog posts in one place (think more magazine than newspaper) but maybe it would help. If you're interested, you can see it here: http://gaming.wikia.com/wiki/Blog:Recent_posts   If the group wants one, we're happy to turn it on.  If not, sorry for the bother color="Blue">Gil (color="Blue" size="1">talk) 07:00, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

This sounds like something that would be rather interesting, and I certainly would like the larger community to be aware of it. No, I don't know why my user talk page was singled out, other than that I am one of several admins here and I guess I've been pretty active lately.

As a part of the editorial section of the RS newspaper, perhaps this would be an interesting part to add. I'm certain that some rather interesting editorials could be developed that discuss various parts of the game (PKing, mods, new game features, Mechscape, etc.) and how they would affect the player community. It is at least something that deserves discussion here, and is another tool we can use in terms of discussing and promoting this game and wiki. --Robert Horning 16:51, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Support - looks interesting and useful. I see no reason not to support this. 18:21, 3 January 2009 (UTC) Oppose - Per below. I wasn't aware of the archived discussion. 03:20, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - Absolutely not. We have already had this discussion here. Read the whole post before commenting. Christine 02:35, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * This is not strictly the same issue here, and some of the problems that caused all of the grief for Halopedia would not, I believe, be an issue here, but it is useful to bring up the previous discussion. I would have to agree with you, the point system is simply silly and a complete waste of time or effort and can be highly counter-productive, but this isn't about the "personal profile" feature that Halopedia is using.  I also agree with some of the points below about Wikia trying to turn into a social networking site that seems contrary to the goal of developing a site full of information about how to play the game of Runescape.  I am not sure why the issue was raised on my user talk page instead of here at the Yew Grove, and that is what really causing me to scratch my head.  The only real reason I'm bringing this forward is due to the fact that this tool was suggested to me by Wikia staff.  --Robert Horning 10:35, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Strong Oppose - Christine is right; this idea has not only been shot down, but the passengers killed and the remains burning. I opposed then, as well.

Strong Oppose as well - That is something I hate on Halopedia, and I don't want this wiki to have to put up with that nonsense. --http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk119/spencemac724/thheadshot-1.png  Spencer   TalkundefinedContribsundefinedEdits  03:30, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Strong Oppose - Per myself in that archive, Christine, and everything. Halopedia practically got ruined community-wise after that was introduced. We don't want any part of it. Not to mention the potential newspaper project is in the opposite direction of the blog feature. Newspaper = informative. Blogs and all the other stuff = ...Must I say? 03:37, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * After what was introduced? I just want to make sure we are on the same page here and talking about the same thing.  This is not the same thing that ruined Halopedia, even though the blogging aspect is something to be concerned about.  This is strictly a blogging feature where a user can add some content that can only be edited by that particular user, nothing more.  Essentially, this is another variant of the forums and could even be a replacement of the forum feature we currently have.  I don't know all of the issues here in terms of what this sort of blogging would do to us as a community, and I would agree that it is something very un-wiki like in nature.  If the concern is an eventual creep into what has been happening on Halopedia (including the "personal images" issue... no wonder there is nearly religious opposition to any personal images), I can buy that argument as well.  --Robert Horning 10:51, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - As per everyone else. 05:13, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - Isn't there a policy against blogging anyways, right here? 11:04, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * This policy comes from Wikipedia (i.e. mostly copied from Wikipedia), where the concern on Wikipedia was over objectivity with the development of the content. There were several issues for this policy:


 * When the policy was originally implemented, there were huge concerns about flooding the early Wikipedia database with blogging content, that the server database would be nothing but blogs if it were permitted. Data storage costs were at the time huge, and those involved with Wikipedia didn't think they could sustain a website like some of the other blogging sites that were then brand-new.  Mind you, there are essay articles that are essentially blogs anyway on Wikipedia, but those tend to be about policies and politics internal to the wiki than something regarding external issues like Iraq, 9/11, and Israel (to note some hot-button issues).  Long-term data storage costs have substantially dropped over the years so this is not nearly as huge of a problem as it once was, and data storage costs for textual information is now incredibly cheap, so concerns about storage costs are now largely irrelevant.
 * Concerns (which I think are just as valid here with the RS Wiki) about maintaining a neutral point of view and objectivity for creating an encyclopedia. Opinions can't be challenged for validity as one person's opinion is just as good and the next person's.  While this wiki isn't strictly an encyclopedia, I do think some sort of scholarly standards should apply here as well.
 * Limits to the scope of the project are ignored by adding features like this. I know that I have encouraged and fought for expansion of different features on this project (like the GEMW), but at the same time there does reach a point that you have to ask if adding blogging is going to change the community in a more destructive nature.  Certainly on Wikipedia there were concerns about blogging bringing in an aspect to the community of a group of individuals that would be there for the blogging and not for trying to develop the content.


 * There is no reason this policy couldn't be changed via community consensus (which is precisely what is happening here... at least trying to see if the community is ready for this), so I don't buy the argument that we shouldn't do this strictly because there is a policy against it. All that means is you shouldn't start a blog here without at least trying to change the current policy.  Policies are never immutable once set, and from time to time it is healthy to question why the policy exists in the first place, even if the ultimate decision is one to keep the policy in place.  --Robert Horning 12:27, 4 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment - I agree. This an old policy that clearly needs re-looked at. I was not using the policy as an argument per say, just bringing it to user's attention. 12:33, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Comment - Should this discussion really take place here? The wiki newspaper has not yet achieved consensus at all. This issue should be brought to attention RuneScape:WikiGuild/Proposals/RS Newspaper here to see if the users who are going to work on the newspaper want this. If they do, this feature can be added to the wiki if the newspaper project reaches consensus. Dtm142 19:16, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

RuneScape Records
I was thinking about a new page called: RuneScape Records. All of the records are written down in this page like:


 * Closest Furnace to a bank
 * P2P: Edgeville
 * F2P: Falador

For example, and ofcourse, player records, like Zezima:


 * First player to achieve 1,000,000,000 total experience
 * Zezima

And even more! How about that? 17:24, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I am neutral on this idea, but leaning more towards oppose (I know this isn't a vote or anything, but I'm unsure how to describe my position). But I don't think "Records" fits for your first examples. And how will you judge the closest of anything? What about shortcuts and such? But anyways, I don't think distances are really records. And I don't know how I feel about the player page records, because first, how do you cite it, and second, how do you determine what is notable enough to be written about? This is pretty much why we don't allow player pages to begin with. Christine 19:00, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Oppose per Christine. Player records are not notable nor verifable. The closest furnace to a bank could be noted in the furnace article, but we do not need a page listing miscellaneous records. Dtm142 19:07, 4 January 2009 (UTC)