User talk:Saftzie

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 * Archive 1 *

Gielinor game prep
I'll take the pic after daily reset. And why would it have a maximum of 57 points for cooking when the other two activities give 60 each? 07:02, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * It seems odd to me, as well, but 19 pts is all I got. The chance of getting the one dish that has a score of 27 may make confirming the pt value a challenge, though. -- 07:08, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * I've been getting 20 points off of dishes with a score of 26 and 19 off of dishes with 25, I have yet to get a 27, idk if there's a glitch where 27 gives less than 26 or if there's other restrictions involved. 07:12, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * That makes sense, and is probably what they intend. I'll edit the page that way, then, and see if anyone else disagrees. -- 08:29, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. 08:31, July 13, 2012 (UTC)

Games ring redirects
And they're still useful redirects. "Oh, that silver ring from the games, I'll look for silver games ring". 22:54, July 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Saftzie, could you make it a bit clearer for me (sorry if I didn't understand it) 23:00, July 24, 2012 (UTC)

Please leave it next time
http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Distractions_and_Diversions_Locations/Penguin_Hide_and_Seek?diff=next&oldid=6293308 Leaving the code helps the 90% of people who will use the Fairy Ring, there is no reason not to include it on that page.--Degenret01 (talk) 03:54, September 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * We don't include direction for how to get to locations on the page. -- 04:09, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

Not for every penguin, no, it would be long and complicated. But in this case it just makes sense, and since our mission is to help the players, then how about we help the players. --Degenret01 (talk) 04:24, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

The maps are the same for each world, the sentence I removed was from a time when we had very narrow specific areas listed. Stop undoing helpful edits.--Degenret01 (talk) 05:04, October 31, 2012 (UTC)
 * Piscatoris, Rellekka, Feldip, and Digsite are the same roam range. We don't include a map of the whole world, nor should we. Your edits are the ones that are truly unhelpful and disruptive. Please stop. You should know better. -- 19:56, October 31, 2012 (UTC)

The maps for the area are what we include for the players to use. If they are not supposed to use them, then why do we include them? Get it? They are supposed to use the maps. That is, the information we provide. Okay? Don't call me disruptive when I make edits to help players, and you undo them.--Degenret01 (talk) 02:44, November 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * Penguins are named after their spawn point. The title of the column in the table is "General Spawn Area." However, penguins move. That's why the page says "NOTE: The information regarding area should not be used as a basis for your search due to the penguins large roaming areas and that they are in different places in each world" (even though you keep deleting it). You are being not only unhelpful, but disruptive when you delete accurate and current information. If you don't understand it, please leave it alone while you attempt to learn it. Furthermore, I also don't appreciate your insinuations that I am unhelpful (as in the previous discussion above, which is also not resolved). I understand that you feel justified, but you're not, so chill out and take a second to learn the topic. -- 04:06, November 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * So it is pretty obvious that you will continue to remove helpful edits, but I can't waste any more time on you.--Degenret01 (talk) 14:02, November 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * Helpful edits are welcome. Your drunken thrashing about is not. And, yeah, I'm done with you, too. -- 19:37, November 1, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Degenret here (and I hope you can reply to this in a calm way). In this case, the fairyring leads to within the fences, and the penguin is always within the fence (so it is always close to the fairy ring). In this case it is helpful to list the fairy ring code, and I myself would find it useful to have it there too. For locations where the penguin may range from the white wolf mountain to yanille it is indeed pointless to include a fairy ring code, but if it's trapped, it is useful to include it with the location. 20:03, November 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * There's a little bit more to the discussion than putting directions about how to get places into the table. However, there was also recently discussion about how to pare the table down, not expand it. That's why some people are adding a second table to the page almost every week which is a "light" version of the table. The discussion kind of died out with adding some js to hide some columns (optionally, mostly the maps) but leave others unhidden. As for adding directions, there are two points to be made. First, every location has a link to the article on the location which contains far more info about it. Second, not everyone has access to fairy rings. If we include fairy ring directions, do we also include non-fairy ring directions? It can get messy pretty fast. -- 21:04, November 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * It doesn't have to be that complicated. Just put the fairy ring there because it is just so extremely practical doesn't hurt. There doesn't need to be further information for other penguins that can roam freely, because they can roam freely, but for this specific case, it is useful to add the info, and it is just annoying to let people look it up on a seperate article, when atleast 90% of the users who read it could save a lot of time and effort by seeing the code in the table. It doesn't have to be so extremely complicated. Just put the thing there, and don't do it for any others, because that's just pointless. The point of putting the code there, and not other transportation methods (such as "you can use ardy tele to go to this polar bear") is that people tend to forget the code WAY more easily than what teleport to use. So, it doesn't hurt to have the code there, and I don't see why it would be better to remove that single exceptional code. 21:41, November 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * I can give you a more complete response later, but you really don't help your point by making up statistics. -- 22:20, November 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * And you don't help your point by only replying to one of the arguments I gave you, and taking that one point completely literally while is it not meant as data. What I meant with it is that a LOT of the users who do PHAS are able to use a fairy ring, and putting that single exceptional fairyring code wouldn't hurt. 10:11, November 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Did you read above where I said "I can give you a more complete response later" ? That meant I would give you a more complete response later. In the meantime, I'll point out that you are the one dealing with only one point (and quite hyperbolically), twisting my words to your desire, and ignoring everything else, which is quite ironic when you were the one who started with "I hope you can reply to this in a calm way." If you change your mind and decide to react more rationally, perhaps we can begin again. Let me know what you decide. -- 06:11, November 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, what are you trying to achieve with this message? Does this just mean you don't have anything else to say, or that you are just trying to lure me? 14:04, November 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * It's a cautionary note. I've already had one pointless series of exchanges with a fanboy drama queen this week. I'm not interested in another. If you can learn to be dispassionate and objective, we can have a discussion. I'm asking if you can be dispassionate, because so far you haven't been. -- 23:37, November 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * The following message is cross-posted to User talk:Saftzie, User talk:Degenret01 and User talk:Joeytje50.

(Indentation reset) Alright, I've had a look at this, and the diffs at issue seem to be: Given the following: I would say that editing precise locations is going to be a waste of editors' time, so it shouldn't be done; the roam area maps should stay (obviously); and, even for roam areas containing one fairy ring, given that locations are all wikilinked and generally contain a "Getting there"-style section ('location', 'teleports' etc.) I'd say the fairy ring codes should not be in there because everything is just one click away. Maybe fairy rings are one person's choice method of teleportation, but for Yanille someone could use a ring of duelling; for Ardougne someone could use the Ardougne cloak; and so on. I also remember hunting for penguins with just fat stacks of runes and a friend. Including just the fairy ring codes, and just for the areas that contain one fairy ring, would be inconsistent. 01:45, November 4, 2012 (UTC) Some clarifications, which I don't think are going to change what you said:
 * r6513376 and its parent, r6510392 (about the roaming area);
 * r6433130 and its parent, r6432016 (about the roaming area); and
 * r6293309 and its parent, r6293308 (about the Fairy Ring code).
 * Maps giving the roam area of a penguin are in the table.
 * Each penguin is guaranteed to be in its roam area on all worlds, but the precise location of the penguins differs per world and can reset with system updates.
 * Editing the precise location of all penguins on a world at all times into the page would favour that world (even the unofficial world, 60), as well as create lots of edits that would flood RecentChanges and take a lot of time. Including only the roam area creates only a few edits at the start of each penguin week (Wednesday ~00:00 UTC).
 * Certain possible roam areas are narrow and contain one, and only one, fairy ring, but other areas have more rings.
 * Adding the fairy ring code does not make the row's height increase.
 * There has been discussion about hiding individual columns at a reader's discretion, which would presumably hide the roam maps if the reader wants them gone, decreasing rows' heights. The fairy ring codes would increase that again.
 * Location names are wikilinked in the table.
 * Crossposted among User talk:A proofreader, User talk:Joeytje50, and User talk:Degenret01.
 * The maps are maps of spawn points, not roam ranges. In cases where the roam ranges are small (McGrubor's Wood, Dragontooth Isle, etc.), the map does include all the borders. In other cases (notably Piscatoris, Oo'glog, Rellekka, and Digsite to name only a few spawns in one range), they're not.
 * I don't think anyone was thinking of continuously updating penguin locations in place of spawn locations.
 * Although IMO w60 is the most popular penguin-hunting world, w71 has at least one group as well. (For double peng points in Oct 2011, w60 and its backup world w66, were the only two worlds where logins went into a queue; w71 and its backup world w99 didn't.) My understanding (I wasn't involved and didn't observe it) is that there has already been an extensive edit war on Jagex's wikified game guide regarding unofficial worlds. It's worth keeping in mind so nothing similar happens here.
 * HTH. -- 03:29, November 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see. So for those roam ranges that are wider than the spawn range, the map will be different, and the penguin could roam farther?
 * Noted.
 * Yeah, about that. I've seen a string of reverts for a piece of information that RzVids (talk) had added to the article, which is the Friends Chat that established World 60 as the main unofficial world for penguin hunting (RS:PDDA vs notability, go figure - but that's a discussion for another time!). World 60 stands out as the main unofficial world used by that forum thread filled in by a forum mod (sorry, forgot the name), and there haven't been any recent edit wars about the world number, thankfully. Also, worlds used only during that weekend shouldn't really count, indeed.
 * An additional point: Has there been any progress on the column-hiding script, and if not, what help does it need? Rendering the same list in the short form at the click of a button would be pretty handy. 04:14, November 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, for the largest roam range, the map of the range would be almost the whole world. Let's just say some penguins can leave the area where they spawn, and a map of the whole world wouldn't add much value.
 * It was one day only and a Thursday. (Existential question: What was Jagex thinking?)
 * There has been no progress on any js for the table. In my life, I've written js, but I'm not primarily a coder. The discussion at the time was about hiding individual columns one by one, at the user's discretion. There was some code written (not by me) as a prototype, but never implemented, for just the map column. Ultimately my position was that update/maintenance of two tables with the same info on the same page seemed really silly, but if other people wanted to add the second one every week, that was fine. That's where we are now. Having a one-click solution that turns the big table into the small table goes even farther than one column at a time, but if we could do that, that actually seems pretty cool. My question would be what that would do to table maintenance. -- 05:29, November 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, and the main w60 thread is by Canada Grrl. However the w71 thread is by Twillow, who is also a forum mod. -- 05:33, November 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * (aside, indentation 5) Ah, Canada Grrl, that's the one I was looking for. Thanks!
 * (indentation 4, replying to There has been no progress...) I code, but I code mainly in Java, not JavaScript. I understand that Tyilo (talk) made a penguin location script already, and could probably maintain something like that for the table columns. 05:46, November 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * (indentation 4, replying to There has been no progress...) I code, but I code mainly in Java, not JavaScript. I understand that Tyilo (talk) made a penguin location script already, and could probably maintain something like that for the table columns. 05:46, November 4, 2012 (UTC)

"Add cherrywood, jade, and stainless..."
The problem is, you've now created a table that massively extends beyond the right edge of the page It doesn't show that way on the "edit" page, only on the live page). It was better back when there was a single column for costs, and just the cost and items icons were in that one column, then the entire table fit properly on the page.  Just sayin' Thundar the Barbarian (talk) 09:48, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * It was wider before I added the separate columns, because there were stings of icons. There is going to be a need for the other 3 resources eventually. It was going to get messy and hard to read. I think the solution is probably to narrow the other columns somehow. -- 10:06, December 17, 2012 (UTC)

POP crew table: There is no reason to believe any crew members will cost trade resources. untill that information exists, leave the table so it shows all the colums rather than cutting the right side of the table off to add a bunch of empty columns. Tortilliachp (talk) 12:17, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Each area is going to have its own, unique resource, like the Arc has bamboo, Skull has gunpowder. They're clearly broken out in the displays. -- 12:19, December 17, 2012 (UTC)

Notice how there are two different resource columns, one labelled "trade resources" ? Slate is not a unique resource from an area. I know this because I'm in the Hook region, and have received a mission where the reward is a single slate (difficulty 10,000). It is definitely not certain trade resources will be used in recruiting crew. If it is the case later on, it's a simple thing to add. Right now it messes up the whole table to add 3 empty columns that may or may not be used in the future because it makes the table overflow. The overflow means that you don't see the inherent traits column on the page, but have to click the table to see it. that's essential information used to decide whether or not to hire someone. Tortilliachp (talk) 12:32, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * I hidden the 3 section headers, as it was blocking the last one. 12:40, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Roger. I'm still pretty sure they'll be back. -- 12:45, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * I was in the middle of reverting when Jr Mime did it. I'm still pretty sure they'll be back. -- 12:42, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * When they release or we find out, we will add them back and find a way to make it all go in. 12:44, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Slate is a unique resource. You saw Plate; there will be missions to get a single Plate. Slate is under resources and Plate is under trade goods.

"/* Trade Goods */ The log lists them in this order;"
Lol, Jagex's famous consistency.... I originally listed them in the order they appeared in the dropdown interface in the port's main screen. :) Thundar the Barbarian (talk) 19:03, December 18, 2012 (UTC)

Son of Better pengLocations
The proposal was successful; you can implement the proposed changes.

P.S. Not sure if anyone has said this, but I really appreciate you updating the PHAS locations every week, even though most people might take it for granted. I'm sure it has made the lives of penguin hunters easier and has made the wiki a more reliable source than most others.

-- 00:17, January 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for letting me know. Also (ps) you're welcome. -- 00:21, January 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not the most active peng hunter (I can't remember the last time I did), but would I be wrong in thinking that the locations repeat over a certain length of time? Is it possible to automate, either by script or bot, the posting of the locations?
 * Penguins and the bear used to repeat before the update that added Zanaris, Dorgesh-Kaan, and Keldagrim as possible spawns. Since then, there has been no regular pattern, although people still call the algorithm that selects locations "the pattern." The algorithm is a partially unanalyzable (so far) function that makes updating the locations programatically impossible. Penguins are found quickly each Wednesday by flooding w60 (or w71 as some prefer) with lots of people looking for them. -- 23:44, January 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's a shame. Boo for Jagex making it actually random
 * They're not completely random, just partially unanalyzable. After studying the new "pattern" for more than a year, some people can predict them with better than 80% accuracy. It's the other 20% that's the kicker. -- 10:27, January 11, 2013 (UTC)

Just used the new table and it is wonderful. thanks for the great work Saftzie. Chrislee33 (talk) 03:51, January 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. Thanks for the motivation to do it. -- 04:14, January 12, 2013 (UTC)