Talk:Player-owned port/Archive 1

Sailing?
whatever happened to the Sailing skill? 15:25, April 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Uh it was never real? <.< 15:26, April 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * It was just a theorized skill. Nothing real. Blaze  fire 12  15:27, April 29, 2012 (UTC)

Runecast 2 - your questions answered states that PoP will be out towards the end of 2012.

Is it confirmed to be open to both f2p and members? Or only members?78.147.34.227 21:27, November 16, 2012 (UTC)

I believe it has been confirmed to be for very high leveled members Xicor12345 (talk) 23:48, November 16, 2012 (UTC)

Anyone have any ideas or hear anything about the requirements? I have 80 Smithing, Crafting, and Construction, but does that count as "very high levelled?" They also said the new Grandmaster quest would be "very high levelled," but I've completed all the current Grandmaster quests, so I'm assuming 80 is "high."

N1ghtshade3 (talk) 03:13, November 19, 2012 (UTC)

Confirmed to be released next week by Mod Mike http://services.runescape.com/m=forum/forums.ws?15,16,241,64128882,goto,1 --71.161.115.132 19:29, December 4, 2012 (UTC)

Did not knw how to add a reference but Mod Mike confirmed you will need 90 smith/craft/runecraft for the full set so you will not be required to get higher than 90. http://services.runescape.com/m=forum/c=M0IxNcBAncc/forums.ws?15,16,241,64128882,goto,4 fixed this do not know why when I added the hyper link it made it go to the first page url the confirmation is on page 4. --71.241.214.52 08:41, December 8, 2012 (UTC)

Its finally here!
Thats right! Its finally here! Talking cabbages are now in-game!

Naaaawwww, I'm just messing with you. Settle down there. Player-owned-ports is whats here! I don't have the requierments but I'm working torwards it. Gratz on anybody who can get anything good! I know I will >:) God of the Forge (talk) 15:05, December 11, 2012 (UTC)God of the Forge

70.16.220.137 17:17, December 11, 2012 (UTC)Good Luck on getting the skills I'm having fun with this new minigame and currently working on trying to get a cyclops sailor.

FYI: captains, crew and voyages are randomly generated. Therefore, it might not be ideal to document them on separate pages. Special voyages are not randomly generated however, so you can document these. - 212.44.29.52 17:55, December 11, 2012 (UTC)(Mod Michelle)

Traits vs. non-trait bonuses
Crew members can have traits that give them increased stats, as well as random bonuses to stats that don't show up as traits. My theory, based on my experience, is that the random bonuses only go up to +60 per stat, and anything +70 or above appears as a trait. Has that been others' experience as well?

152.7.49.48 19:27, December 12, 2012 (UTC)

OK, I found that I have a Varrock Chef with the Plucky trait but only an extra 40 Combat, so so much for that theory. As far as I can tell, then, there's just no difference between traits and random bonuses? Perhaps traits still tend to be higher, there's just some overlap? 152.7.49.48 09:38, December 13, 2012 (UTC)

Time to remove the "Under Construction" tag?
Kudos (and not Varrock Museum ones, either) everyone. Amazing amount of work and detail by everyone in a mere 36 hours. Thank everyone who tweaked my additions to make them better, I'm still learning this wiki editor stuff. :^)

As for the page, I think it's time to remove the "under construction" tag, as it's more tweeks and normal additions, corrections, and updates than actual construction of the page. Thoughts? Thundar the Barbarian (talk) 23:55, December 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * No, PoP is like a few hours old. The page needs to be reformatted too, it's hard to understand. I'm working on a better lead section right now. 23:56, December 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * Did you notice the massive reformat I did to organize all the port stuff in one place, the ship stuff in another, etc?  What other reformats would you suggest? Thundar the Barbarian (talk) 23:59, December 12, 2012 (UTC)

How do stats actually work?
On the topic of leveing up, are we sure it only gives 10% bonus to the base stats? I am pretty sure after leveling up I've had crew gain bonuses in their non base stats, and not the base stat. For example I have catherby fishermen with  bonuses to non-seafaring, who don't have traits, and that only happens after I level up..

Can crew members pick up those invisible traits from voyages? I am pretty sure I've had some crewmembers increase in their non base stats after voyages... I will try to keep an eye out for this in the future.

Platinummyr (talk) 05:12, December 13, 2012 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure it's just the base stats, but I could be wrong. The main thing that convinced me was having a Plucky Smuggler with 70 combat who didn't gain any combat when she leveled, since obviously a Stowaway with 70 combat will gain combat when he levels. I'm pretty sure the rest of my units have been like that as well, but I haven't documented very much. One example that I did document is a Varrock Chef with 20 combat and 10 seafaring, which didn't increase when he leveled.

My suspicion is that your Catherby Fishermen actually had their extra bonuses before they leveled up as well, but you just didn't notice at the time. I'm pretty sure that's happened to me. The crew roster doesn't show these bonuses before you recruit them, so it's quite possible for the first time you notice them to be after they've leveled, especially since when choosing the crew to use for a voyage, everyone sorta looks the same and their level isn't immediately noticeable.

152.7.49.48 10:00, December 13, 2012 (UTC)

I often have crew members gaining stats in various skills, not just their main one. E.g. Varrock Chef: 205 morale, but also 30 combat and 10 in rest. - Mavo (talk) 12:31, December 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * I also have crew members that I thought started with just 150 in a skill, but they have 10-30 in other skills now. I can't confirm if they had them at level 0, but they definitely do now and increase at further level up. As a second question, my crew members seem stuck at level 4, does anyone have a member at level 5? 08:34, December 14, 2012 (UTC)


 * I have crew members level stats that are at a base of 0. I have found it happens more often when I put them on a voyage that requires a stat that they don't have.173.26.190.140 09:18, December 18, 2012 (UTC)

Standard/Special voyages
Other than the names, these change constantly as the game progresses, the same name voyage may have vastly differing rewards or adversities... so why even have those listed in this section? Thundar the Barbarian (talk) 08:58, December 13, 2012 (UTC)

Traits
Has anyone seen a standard crewmember with more than one trait? Captains can have more than one, but I have over 20 crewmembers, and not one has more than a single trait. I keep having to change the "Traits" section back to reflect a single trait for crew members (as opposed to Captains), because it keeps getting edited. I'll happily stop defending the single trait for crew members if I can get some confirmation that they can have more than one, I'm just going by empirical evidence to the contrary. Thundar the Barbarian (talk) 08:58, December 13, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I'll answer myself here. I finally recruited a crew member that had two traits. It must just be massively more % chance for captains to start with two traits than for crewmembers to do so. I will admit defeat and go amend the page :)    Thundar the Barbarian (talk) 10:14, December 13, 2012 (UTC)

One of my Ardy Shopkeepers gained a trait on levelling up yesterday. He started with Merchant (obviously), but now he's a Plucky Merchant.

I have had one of my captains gain a trait (after unlocking that trait via a voyage for captains) that it already had. Darsstar (talk) 16:19, December 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * Just like I now see Glutton has been corrected to be the exact opposite of Workhorse, I expect that Cursed should be the exact opposite of Multi-talented, and thus bestow -50 morale instead of -30. I haven't seen the trait myself, so so far only speculation. 01:45, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

Double reward?
Has anyone else noticed double rewards? I have 3% chime bonus from my warehouse, but nothing for gunpowder. Not using any traits like 'Merchant' either. This voyage was supposed to give me 350 gunpowder http://puu.sh/1ArGX

- Mavo (talk) 14:38, December 13, 2012 (UTC)

Was that the barmaid's tip? I got ~1400 chimes and 700 gunpowder from that as well, though it only claimed to give 700 & 350. 24.40.156.230 03:56, December 14, 2012 (UTC)

-- Yes it was, other people are getting it too, so it seems like the gossip can give double rewards. - Mavo (talk) 04:52, December 14, 2012 (UTC)

Crew Table
Do we need a column to indicate which classes have automatic starting traits (e.g., Ardy Shopkeepers always start with Merchant, First Mates with Solidarity, etc.)?

Is there a better way to show which crew are not immediately accessible? (Cyclops requires a voyage to be completed, for example.) Does Bamboo Golem require something to unlock? I've never seen one, but it's only been a couple of days since it launched.

Should it be broken into tables for each area? I'm assuming there will be another tier of crew available in the next area.206.221.149.50 16:03, December 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * Awww... after I put so much work into that table originally??? .  How about *organizing* it relative to area, then adding one more column that shows which area the crew is unlocked in (cyclops is when you get that island as a voyage, not before, so you would have "the arc", "cyclops island" [or whatever it's called], "the Skull", etc., for that column's entries), and another one to show automatic starting traits, if any?   There's so many tables as it is now, and stuff relating to each other really should be kept in the same table so people don't have to go back and forth between them to try to get all information. Thundar the Barbarian (talk) 19:29, December 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * That's what I did (and thanks for your work). They are now organized by area, and sorted by increasing resource cost within each area. For now, I just placed the Cyclops info below the table. If, as I suspect, there is a new tier of crew for each area you unlock, this will probably have to be spun off into its own page. That might be a good time to break up the table to make it easier to find what you're looking for.206.221.149.50 19:42, December 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * And I just added the two new columns.  The inherent traits need to be populated.  I also moved the table below the information paragraphs, it makes more sense there than in the middle of them. Thundar the Barbarian (talk) 20:38, December 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * I've just re-re formatted this table. Before I make it live, see what you think:  I changed the costs to icons so that scrolling up and down the page is not necessary any more, and removed the individual icon columns so that there's not a lot of blank space, renamed the first column, which allwed the complete removal of the regions column.  All this was to try to make the table more stable width-wise and keep it on the screen page without having to expand by the reader to see the full table, as it was starting to push the limits of page width again.  Thundar the Barbarian (talk) 02:34, December 25, 2012 (UTC)


 * {| class = wikitable style="text-align:center; white-space: nowrap"

! colspan="1" rowspan="2" | The Arc Region Crew Types ! colspan="4" rowspan="1" | Statistics ! colspan="1" rowspan="2" | Cost To Recruit ! colspan="1" rowspan="2" | Inherent Trait(s) ! style="font-size:80%;" | Morale ! style="font-size:80%;" | Combat ! style="font-size:80%;" | Seafaring ! style="font-size:80%;" | Speed Drunk Pirate Fisherman Engineer Shopkeeper ! colspan="1" rowspan="2" | The Skull Region Crew Types ! colspan="4" rowspan="1" | Statistics ! colspan="1" rowspan="2" | Cost To Recruit ! colspan="1" rowspan="2" | Inherent Trait(s) ! style="font-size:80%;" | Morale ! style="font-size:80%;" | Combat ! style="font-size:80%;" | Seafaring ! style="font-size:80%;" | Speed Bannerman Musketeer Enthusiast Golem Overseer Whalerider ! colspan="1" rowspan="2" | The Hook Region Crew Types ! colspan="4" rowspan="1" | Statistics ! colspan="1" rowspan="2" | Cost To Recruit ! colspan="1" rowspan="2" | Inherent Trait(s) ! style="font-size:80%;" | Morale ! style="font-size:80%;" | Combat ! style="font-size:80%;" | Seafaring ! style="font-size:80%;" | Speed Clansman Clansman Clansman Expert ! colspan="1" rowspan="2" | The Scythe Region Crew Types ! colspan="4" rowspan="1" | Statistics ! colspan="1" rowspan="2" | Cost To Recruit ! colspan="1" rowspan="2" | Inherent Trait(s) ! style="font-size:80%;" | Morale ! style="font-size:80%;" | Combat ! style="font-size:80%;" | Seafaring ! style="font-size:80%;" | Speed Sniper
 * style="text-align: left;" | Travelling Drunk.png Travelling
 * style="text-align: left;" | Travelling Drunk.png Travelling
 * 70 || 0 || 0 || 0
 * 0
 * none
 * style="text-align: left;" | [[File:Stowaway.png]] Stowaway
 * 0 || 70 || 0 || 0
 * 0
 * none
 * style="text-align: left;" | [[File:Smuggler (POP).png]] Smuggler
 * 0 || 0 || 70 || 0
 * 0
 * none
 * style="text-align: left;" | [[File:Varrock Chef.png]] Varrock Chef
 * 150 || 0 || 0 || 0
 * 80 Chimes icon.png|| none
 * style="text-align: left;" | Brimhaven Pirate.png Brimhaven
 * 150 || 0 || 0 || 0
 * 80 Chimes icon.png|| none
 * style="text-align: left;" | Brimhaven Pirate.png Brimhaven
 * style="text-align: left;" | Brimhaven Pirate.png Brimhaven
 * 0 || 150 || 0 || 0
 * 80 Chimes icon.png|| none
 * style="text-align: left;" | Catherby Fisherman.png Catherby
 * style="text-align: left;" | Catherby Fisherman.png Catherby
 * 0 || 0 || 150 || 0
 * 80 Chimes icon.png|| none
 * style="text-align: left;" | Dwarven Engineer (Player-owned ports).png Dwarven
 * style="text-align: left;" | Dwarven Engineer (Player-owned ports).png Dwarven
 * 0 || 0 || 0 || 400
 * 60 Chimes icon.png 30 Bamboo icon.png || none
 * style="text-align: left;" | Ardougne Shopkeeper.png Ardougne
 * style="text-align: left;" | Ardougne Shopkeeper.png Ardougne
 * 50 || 0 || 0 || 0
 * 60 Chimes icon.png 30 Bamboo icon.png
 * Merchant
 * style="text-align: left;" | [[File:Bamboo Golem.png]] Bamboo Golem
 * 60 || 100 || 0 || 0
 * 60 Chimes icon.png 30 Bamboo icon.png
 * Staunch
 * style="text-align: left;" | [[File:First Mate.png]] First Mate
 * 50 || 50 || 50 || 0
 * 100 Chimes icon.png 100 Bamboo icon.png
 * Solidarity
 * style="text-align: left;"| [[File:Cyclops (Player-owned ports).png]] Cyclops
 * 100 || 150 || 0 || 0
 * 300 Chimes icon.png 200 Bamboo icon.png
 * Rallying Cry
 * style="font-size:80%;" colspan="7" rowspan="1" |
 * 300 Chimes icon.png 200 Bamboo icon.png
 * Rallying Cry
 * style="font-size:80%;" colspan="7" rowspan="1" |
 * style="font-size:80%;" colspan="7" rowspan="1" |
 * style="text-align: left;" | Eastern Bannerman.png Eastern
 * style="text-align: left;" | Eastern Bannerman.png Eastern
 * 350 || 0 || 0 || 0
 * 250 Chimes icon.png 80 Gunpowder icon.png
 * style="text-align: left;" | Eastern Musketeer.png Eastern
 * style="text-align: left;" | Eastern Musketeer.png Eastern
 * style="text-align: left;" | Eastern Musketeer.png Eastern
 * 0 || 350 || 0 || 0
 * 250 Chimes icon.png 80 Gunpowder icon.png
 * style="text-align: left;" | [[File:Eastern Guide.png]] Eastern Guide
 * 0 || 0 || 350 || 0
 * 250 Chimes icon.png 80 Gunpowder icon.png
 * style="text-align: left;" | Fireworks Enthusiast.png Fireworks
 * 250 Chimes icon.png 80 Gunpowder icon.png
 * style="text-align: left;" | Fireworks Enthusiast.png Fireworks
 * style="text-align: left;" | Fireworks Enthusiast.png Fireworks
 * style="text-align: left;" | Fireworks Enthusiast.png Fireworks
 * 0 || 0 || 0 || 800
 * 100 Chimes icon.png 120 Gunpowder icon.png
 * style="text-align: left;"| [[File:Palmist.png]] Palmist
 * 0 || 0 || 200 || 0
 * 100 Chimes icon.png 120 Gunpowder icon.png
 * Good Fortune
 * style="text-align: left;" | Exploding Golem.png Exploding
 * Good Fortune
 * style="text-align: left;" | Exploding Golem.png Exploding
 * style="text-align: left;" | Exploding Golem.png Exploding
 * 170 || 200 || 0 || 0
 * 100 Chimes icon.png 120 Gunpowder icon.png
 * Staunch
 * style="text-align: left;"| Eastern Overseer.png Eastern
 * style="text-align: left;"| Eastern Overseer.png Eastern
 * 120 || 120 || 120 || 0
 * 400 Chimes icon.png 300 Gunpowder icon.png
 * Solidarity
 * style="text-align: left;" | Siren Whalerider.png Siren
 * style="text-align: left;" | Siren Whalerider.png Siren
 * 0 || 200 || 350 || 0
 * 600 Chimes icon.png 300 Gunpowder icon.png
 * Rallying Cry
 * style="font-size:80%;" colspan="7" rowspan="1" |
 * style="font-size:80%;" colspan="7" rowspan="1" |
 * style="text-align: left;" | Blazing Lantern Clansman.png Blazing Lantern
 * style="text-align: left;" | Blazing Lantern Clansman.png Blazing Lantern
 * 500 || 0 || 0 || 0
 * 600 Chimes icon.png 120 Slate icon.png
 * style="text-align: left;" | Golden Katana Clansman.png Golden Katana
 * style="text-align: left;" | Golden Katana Clansman.png Golden Katana
 * style="text-align: left;" | Golden Katana Clansman.png Golden Katana
 * 0 || 500 || 0 || 0
 * 600 Chimes icon.png 120 Slate icon.png
 * style="text-align: left;" | Storm Riders Clansman.png Storm Riders
 * style="text-align: left;" | Storm Riders Clansman.png Storm Riders
 * style="text-align: left;" | Storm Riders Clansman.png Storm Riders
 * 0 || 0 || 500 || 0
 * 600 Chimes icon.png 120 Slate icon.png
 * style="text-align: left;" | Fireworks Expert.png Fireworks
 * style="text-align: left;" | Fireworks Expert.png Fireworks
 * style="text-align: left;" | Fireworks Expert.png Fireworks
 * 0 || 0 || 0 || 1200
 * 400 Chimes icon.png 160 Slate icon.png
 * style="text-align: left;" | [[File:Trader.png]] Trader
 * 150 || 0 || 0 || 0
 * 400 Chimes icon.png 160 Slate icon.png
 * Merchant
 * style="text-align: left;" | [[File:Soothsayer.png]] Soothsayer
 * 0 || 0 || 300 || 0
 * 400 Chimes icon.png 160 Slate icon.png
 * Good Fortune
 * style="text-align: left;" | [[File:Slate Golem.png]] Slate Golem
 * 250 || 300 || 0 || 0
 * 400 Chimes icon.png 160 Slate icon.png
 * Staunch
 * style="text-align: left;" | [[File:Feral chimera.png]] Feral Chimera
 * 350 || 500 || 0 || 0
 * 1200 Chimes icon.png 400 Slate icon.png
 * Rallying Cry
 * style="font-size:80%;" colspan="7" rowspan="1" |
 * style="text-align: left;" | [[File:Feral chimera.png]] Feral Chimera
 * 350 || 500 || 0 || 0
 * 1200 Chimes icon.png 400 Slate icon.png
 * Rallying Cry
 * style="font-size:80%;" colspan="7" rowspan="1" |
 * style="font-size:80%;" colspan="7" rowspan="1" |
 * style="text-align: left;" | [[File:Card Sharp.png]] Card Sharp
 * 750 || 0 || 0 || 0
 * 1000 Chimes icon.png 140 Cherrywood icon.png
 * style="text-align: left;" | Sniper.png Crows' Nest
 * style="text-align: left;" | Sniper.png Crows' Nest
 * style="text-align: left;" | Sniper.png Crows' Nest
 * style="text-align: left;" | Sniper.png Crows' Nest
 * 0 || 750 || 0 || 0
 * 1000 Chimes icon.png 140 Cherrywood icon.png
 * style="text-align: left;" | [[File:Cartographer.png]] Cartographer
 * 0 || 0 || 750 || 0
 * 1000 Chimes icon.png 140 Cherrywood icon.png
 * style="text-align: left;" | [[File:Explosives Expert.png]] Explosives Expert
 * 0 || 0 || 0 || 2000
 * 500 Chimes icon.png 220 Cherrywood icon.png
 * style="text-align: left;" | [[File:Merchant.png]] Merchant
 * 250 || 0 || 0 || 0
 * 500 Chimes icon.png 220 Cherrywood icon.png
 * Merchant
 * style="text-align: left;" | Cherrywood Golem
 * 300 || 500 || 0 || 0
 * 500 Chimes icon.png 220 Cherrywood icon.png
 * Staunch
 * style="text-align: left;" | [[File:Bureaucrat.png]] Bureaucrat
 * 250 || 250 || 250 || 0
 * 1200 Chimes icon.png 500 Cherrywood icon.png
 * Solidarity
 * style="text-align: left;" | [[File:Seawitch.png]] Sea Witch
 * 350 || 0 || 750 || 0
 * 2000 Chimes icon.png 600 Cherrywood icon.png
 * Rallying Cry
 * style="font-size:80%;" colspan="7" rowspan="1" |
 * }
 * Chimes and "other" should be in their own columns. In-line icons with text is ugly and can border on illegible. Also, I wouldn't shrink fonts below 80%, e.g., the refs. -- 04:02, December 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Hmmm... that's the way 90% of the other tables on the POP series of pages are, showing the mini-icons rather than the text.  For me, it's more consistent with those other tables, and I disagree about it being ugly (it's immediately clear what it is), and it doesn't require the user to find the top of the table to look up what a simple number (otherwise) means and then to trace the correct column down to the row they are lookng at. Thundar the Barbarian (talk) 04:23, December 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Also the Engineer, Shopkeeper, Bamboo Golem, First Mate, and Cyclops cost chimes and bamboo, not bamboo and gunpowder, of course. -- 04:08, December 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * And yeah, I goofed on the gunpowder vs bamboo, I was going to proofread the whole thing before it got put up (if it did).  My fault. Won't bother fixing it above, will do so if the table goes live after feedback here. Thundar the Barbarian (talk) 04:23, December 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * ... which would be a good reason for a different convention. Fewer errors means better maintainability. -- 04:38, December 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * It had nothing to do with routine "maintenance" - it had to do with copying/pasting, cutting columns, moving things and revamping the whole table all at once, and my carelessness in that one section.  An error on my part is certainly not grounds to dismiss ... I've noticed a few mistakes even admins have made that had to be either self- or other- corrected.  Mistakes get made, people correct them.  That's a Wiki.  So to show how tough it would be, I went ahead and corrected those mistakes above, and bumped the reference text uo to 80% as you suggested (I was looking at the headers and the 80% size that was already being used there, thinking that was way too big, as reference text is almost always smaller than its referenced text, so I cut that down even further  Your comment made me realize that it was 80% of normal column header size) Thundar the Barbarian (talk) 04:56, December 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Calm down, dude. We're talking about a table on a web site. Yes, it's a wiki. People, even people who aren't you, are going to change it, and everyone who reads it has to understand it when they're done. That's why it has to be maintainable. It has nothing to do with any mistakes you specifically made this specific time. That's only an example. -- 05:04, December 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * reset indent
 * style="font-size:80%;" colspan="7" rowspan="1" |
 * }
 * Chimes and "other" should be in their own columns. In-line icons with text is ugly and can border on illegible. Also, I wouldn't shrink fonts below 80%, e.g., the refs. -- 04:02, December 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Hmmm... that's the way 90% of the other tables on the POP series of pages are, showing the mini-icons rather than the text.  For me, it's more consistent with those other tables, and I disagree about it being ugly (it's immediately clear what it is), and it doesn't require the user to find the top of the table to look up what a simple number (otherwise) means and then to trace the correct column down to the row they are lookng at. Thundar the Barbarian (talk) 04:23, December 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Also the Engineer, Shopkeeper, Bamboo Golem, First Mate, and Cyclops cost chimes and bamboo, not bamboo and gunpowder, of course. -- 04:08, December 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * And yeah, I goofed on the gunpowder vs bamboo, I was going to proofread the whole thing before it got put up (if it did).  My fault. Won't bother fixing it above, will do so if the table goes live after feedback here. Thundar the Barbarian (talk) 04:23, December 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * ... which would be a good reason for a different convention. Fewer errors means better maintainability. -- 04:38, December 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * It had nothing to do with routine "maintenance" - it had to do with copying/pasting, cutting columns, moving things and revamping the whole table all at once, and my carelessness in that one section.  An error on my part is certainly not grounds to dismiss ... I've noticed a few mistakes even admins have made that had to be either self- or other- corrected.  Mistakes get made, people correct them.  That's a Wiki.  So to show how tough it would be, I went ahead and corrected those mistakes above, and bumped the reference text uo to 80% as you suggested (I was looking at the headers and the 80% size that was already being used there, thinking that was way too big, as reference text is almost always smaller than its referenced text, so I cut that down even further  Your comment made me realize that it was 80% of normal column header size) Thundar the Barbarian (talk) 04:56, December 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Calm down, dude. We're talking about a table on a web site. Yes, it's a wiki. People, even people who aren't you, are going to change it, and everyone who reads it has to understand it when they're done. That's why it has to be maintainable. It has nothing to do with any mistakes you specifically made this specific time. That's only an example. -- 05:04, December 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * reset indent

Don't patronize me by telling me to "chill". I don't need to "calm down," I'm presenting my reasonable counter arguments to what, so far, are only your own personal opinions. So far, you're the only one who's chimed (no pun intended) in here, and that's not surprising knowing it's Christmas Eve. Just because I'm standing behind my reasonings doesn't give you the right to treat me as if I am out of control by telling me to calm down. Yes, we're talking about a table on a website. Yes, others will change it. If they mess it up, another will come along and fix it. Others have fixed my mistakes in the past, and in doing so, I've learned from them and their fixes in many cases. The last time I changed a table that radically, it just got reverted, so I was doing the courtesy of wanting to get several opinions before that happened again. Let's wait until some others voice those opinions. Thundar the Barbarian (talk) 05:31, December 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not patronizing you when I tell you rationally that you're reacting emotionally to a totally non-emotional issue. Yes, calm down. -- 06:02, December 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * So, any time anyone responds with disagreement over your opinion, they're "reacting emotionally", but if you disagree with them, you're little Miss Rational?  Check a mirror, Missy.  Pot, Kettle, Black.  I'm trying to have a discussion on the merits of one version of a simple table over another, and you're getting almost ad homenim because I continue to support my opinion.  "Emotional"?  "Calm down" (implies out of control)?  You're certainly not discussing the issues, you're throwing out epitaphs based on your somehow perceived knowledge of my state of mind.  I was expressing my opinion, logically rendered, in a calm, reserved fashion. Note that I have not called you irrational, out of control, or implied any such things as you have done to me, but rather attempted to discuss a feature in the Wiki.  Is that not allowed, or does that merit implying somene is out of control simply because their opinion is not in agreement with yours? We each have our own, so, as I said, let's allow some others to comment on the merits of the versions.  Until they do, I'm done with this conversation, as you obviously aren't interested in the original question any more.  My somehow perceived knowledge of you is that you'll certainly go ahead and get the last word in here, and that's fine. Thundar the Barbarian (talk) 06:21, December 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Dude, if you can't see how writing a flaming essay in response to a comment to keep a cool head over a table is an over-reaction, this really isn't going anywhere constructive. -- 06:25, December 25, 2012 (UTC)