Talk:The Godless/Archive 1

Godless subsections
Following the discussion on the Gods talk page, I decided to continue the conversation here, as this is the page about faction or group of individuals identifying as 'The Godless', opposed to an deity named 'godless'. As this page (currently) states, the Godless faction that does not follow any god. In fact it tries to keep the gods out of Gielinor and attempt to keep it a place only for mortals. Seeing as this was the 'death-wish' of Guthix it is understandable that people initially confused it as a solely Guthixian group. And although it may have members identifying as Guthixian (or formerly identifying as such), it is by no means exclusively so. --- On the God-talk page it was suggested to make a subsections of groups and people that would join this faction. Similar things could be done with other factions (e.g.: The Saradomin faction could have: Faladorian White knights and the Myreque as distinct groups with other things that set them apart (like method and values) while they boths till support Saradomin). In the Godless faction it has been suggested to make at least two or three subgroups: Please, feel free to discuss. 22:13, May 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * The (Formerly) Guthixian Godless
 * The Dorgeshuun-style Godless
 * The 'Other'-category

I don't think the Godless Faction or any faction should be broken down into previous factions, as regardless of their previous allegiances, members have come together under one banner. It should be noted however that The Godless faction are less cohesive than other factions and have internal divisions such as;
 * Those who wish to attain godhood.
 * Those who follow none of the gods.
 * Those who would protect Gielinor at all costs.
 * It's also worth pointing out that none of the 3 are mutually exclusive with either of the other two. 04ismailjj6 (talk) 10:23, May 29, 2013 (UTC)


 * I like these better :3 11:25, May 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, but i can't take all the credit. Super-String's forum thread provided the words, since they were better than the ones I had in mind :)
 * I've been wondering if the other factions should be divided up internally too. It seems like they'd be much more cohesive though, I gues I'll wait till God Emissaures comes out in a few hours, hopefully. :D04ismailjj6 (talk) 12:01, May 29, 2013 (UTC)


 * How do we know which banner the Dorgeshuun will be under, afterall they fought for Bandos before? The Godless Faction itself (most likely) refers to Guthixian Godless, while Dorgeshuun Godless is more isolated, as I don't know if they will or will not fight for the Guthixian Godless, or indeed fight at all...? I think the Godless faction should be exclusively Ex-Guthixian, as they follow Guthix's teachings, while Godlessness as a whole should be devided into different branches. Unless, ofcourse, the Dorgeshuun fight for the Godless faction, inwhich case I believe the Godless Faction should be branched off (as they still don't follow Guthix Godlessness)... :D Italay90 (talk) 12:19, May 29, 2013 (UTC)


 * PS. I believe that The Godless should be a seperate article from Godless/Godlessness, as Godless/Godlessness, is a view that there should be no god in Gielinor, whilst The Godless is a faction who fight for this belief, following Guthix's teachings of "Balance".
 * Dorgeshuun Godless believe that all gods, including the now dead Guthix, are evil. Whereas Guthix Godless believe in Balance and peace. Therefore, I think it's best we make two articles, Godless, the view, and The Godless, the faction. If we made a "Godless" or "Godlessness" article, I believe it should consist of the following:
 * Guthix Godless
 * Dorgeshuun Godless
 * Other (if any) Godless
 * Italay90 (talk) 12:30, May 29, 2013 (UTC)

Godless Members
Shouldn't we ad those Godless members NPC? Their NPC, and their part of the Godless. 01:44, December 17, 2013 (UTC)


 * I believe so... I just haven't seen them around :( 12:44, December 17, 2013 (UTC)


 * I have, several times, they come and ask who to ambush more. 16:48, December 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, regardless, we should add them too, we should also add a little description to it. Like what you said. Btw, have you found that wandering alchemist too?? Any tricks in finding them?? :P 17:26, December 17, 2013 (UTC)


 * Just be lucky through convoys. 17:37, December 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Hmm... I wonder what my luck ratio is (and how much I miss) :P I should do more convoys and turn pvp off :P All those Armadyleans keep killing me 18:50, December 17, 2013 (UTC)

Vorago
Now, as excited as I can be that a boss npc is with the godless, should we really be putting it in to early? I mean after all the event isn't out yet, and not much information is out about why he is acting for the Godless. -- 12:50, March 16, 2015 (UTC)


 * Well, Vorago is technically supporting the Godless for the Tuska event, as evidenced by one of his Scopulus representing the faction. We'll know the rest once the event actually begins but for now all we need to know is Vorago will be on the side of the Godless. 13:21, March 16, 2015 (UTC)


 * While we, officially, ought to wait until it's released (Tuska event), I think it's pretty much 'confirmed'. We also don't see it as a problem with other things. I mean, even lore FAQs or twitter statements make it unto the wikia, even the ones that will never (isfaik) go in game. I don't think this is too problematic at all. 21:31, March 17, 2015 (UTC)
 * Vorago is as much of an ally to the Godless as the Gods are, he should not be listed under allies.
 * Proof said by Scopulus himself, sent by Vorago to speak on his behalf:
 * Player: Why are you with the Godless?


 * Scopulus: I am of the earth. The earth is not of the Godless. The earth is of the earth.
 * Scopulus: The earth stood with the Godless as the challenger approached. It was a necessity.
 * Scopulus: I do not stand here to aid these humans in their quest.

The last part says that they are not allies: "I do not stand here to aid these humans in their quest."Kcin2424 (talk) 21:56, July 14, 2015 (UTC)

The last part says that the Scopulus is not there to aid them in their quest of ridding the god, yet he is there helping them, under the command of Vorago, to protect the portal, please do not edit the page unless a discussion of it is made. He is viewed as an ally because represented the Godless in the 3rd world event. This means that if another battle is needed for the Godless to help Vorago, the Earth would roccomand Vorago the Godless. But please stop editing the page with out coming in here first, you changed the "Not guthixian part" when it was already made to leave it like that. You cannot change a page like that unless consulting it here first. 22:38, July 14, 2015 (UTC)

You missed the part of this : "It was a necessity." and this "I do not stand here to aid these humans in their quest." that means Vorago only sided with them as it was needed and that he holds no alliance with them he is not for them nor against them. Should we also add Zamorak, Saradomin and Armadyl among the allies list as they were allies during the world event 3 as well. If you look at the time stamps dude I did post in here first. So get your facts straight before you talk I know that is very hard for you to do but please try.Kcin2424 (talk) 22:42, July 14, 2015 (UTC)


 * The goals of Vorago (protecting the earth from Tuska) and the Godless (protecting Gielinor from Tuska) were aligned for this event. The representatives of Saradomin, Zamorak and Armadyl had a separate goal (obtaining more power) which they were willing to work with the Godless to obtain, but did not consider them allies 22:50, July 14, 2015 (UTC)


 * First, no need to be rude, I done nothing to you, second, You missed the part where i said, "The last part says that the Scopulus is not there to aid them in their quest of ridding the god, yet he is there helping them, under the command of Vorago, to protect the portal, " The Scopulus only spoke for himself, Not vorago, he stated the Earth joined with the Godless because it was needed, meaning if the same situation happens again, the earth will once again join with the Godless. He is listed as an ally, but stated when and where from the Moderate of the Wikia, and it should be kept. Plus, Ik u did post it in here first, but still you shouldn't edit it until other ppl come in, talk about it, and an agreement is done. Like I stated before. Not only that, Before, The Scopulus Dialouge stated they Vorago is with teh Godless as both shared a common goal, like stated Kane source is right here http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Scopulus_(NPC)/dialogue#Scopulus 22:51, July 14, 2015 (UTC)

The definition of allies:"a state formally cooperating with another for a military or other purpos. By definition all 4 factions were allies in this event. Motives might not add upt but that doesn't mean they aren't alleis for the event. If you talked to the NPCs in the event it straight out says they are allies "Player:" What is going on here?


 * Moia: We've got a plan to weaken Tuska, but it requires us all to work together for the greater good.
 * Kamiee: This is true. We are required to be allies to prevent this global threat."

Being sent by Vorago means what he says is what Vorago wants to say but does not want to stand(and probably cannot stand) on tuska's back all day. So in this case what Scop. says is speaking for Vorago as well. The earth will also side with any other faction if the need comes again. Vorago is not just going to help one faction as he is only wanting to protect the earth if another faction needs support and it aligns with protecting the earth Vorago will step up once more.Kcin2424 (talk) 23:07, July 14, 2015 (UTC)


 * What the Scopulus says is not what Vorago want to say, as teh Scopulus talks on his own. If so it's like saying Kamiee wants their god to be stronger and their god wants to be stronger. Either way Vorago was an ally, and is listed because of teh past Dialouge (Link was given upove) . And he would not ally with Zamorakians if their god will jump in for them, even if together a kill, Zamorak will gain the power and probably kill Vorago. If The Godless was not needed, Vorago would have killed Tuska first, and quickly. The otehr Factions wanted to protect the Earth, yes, but give their god credits, and Power. The Godless just wanted to protect the earth, and it's people. Vorago wanted to protect teh earth. And so what happened? Vorago joined the Godless to weaken tuska to allow him to go to Tuska. Because it seems only The Godless Aligned spear would have allowed him to enter even though her edict weakened would alllow an all strike attack. Either way, Vorago is an ally in a way that if Vorago needs them, he would call upon them again, if the same situation happens. if the case was joining anotehr faction if aligned to protect the earth, then he would have done so with the other 3 in the 3rd World event, but instead only did it with the Godless. 23:19, July 14, 2015 (UTC)

"What Scopulus says is what Vorago wants to say. They are both of the earth they are both the same type of being. One was sent by the other to speak for him. Vorago was an ally, so was Zamorak, Saradomin, Armadyl they were all allies to each other temporarily. Then why did he jump into the Tuska conflict there were 3 gods, 4 if you count in the possibility Zaros could have jumped in, that could have taken his place by that logic there was no need for him to join the conflict. Zamorak has no need to kill Vorago and that isn't even close to what Zamorak is about. So did the Godless they wanted to gain their own power and they are trying to give full credit to themselves(atleast Kara is). Vorago did not join the Godless he temporarily allied himself with them for the greater good. Again if Vorago is an ally to them if they need him then that would mean the whole world would be in danger again and the other gods would be allies again as well. So if one of them is classified as an ally to the Godless based on this event they all are.Kcin2424 (talk) 23:59, July 14, 2015 (UTC)

They are the same being with two different minds. What you said backed me up even further on how Vorago tried to do this alone, with out any of the gods helping him. He allied with the godless him self to stop Tuska, him self. Proving he is to be listed, because unlike the other gods, he did it to defend Gielinor, so he joined the Godless, to help. So again, Vorago is an allied, stated only for the third world event, not as an on going. We are listing him as a one being, not an entire faction. 00:07, July 15, 2015 (UTC)

So no followers sent by anyone can be correct what in what they are saying even if they are told to say something by the person they are saying it for? If Vorago tried to do it alone why would you have allowed the Godless to help him by alingnign themselves with him for this event? The other gods tried to defend Gielinor how many times did this need to be said

Player:What is going on here?


 * Moia: We've got a plan to weaken Tuska, but it requires us all to work together for the greater good.
 * Kamiee: This is true. We are required to be allies to prevent this global threat." Vorago is allied, so is Zamorak, Saradomin, and Armadyl for only the third world event as well.Kcin2424 (talk) 00:18, July 15, 2015 (UTC)

Again, we are listing him as a being, not a faction. He did kill Tuska alone, not with a god. He is listed as an ally, as he was representing the Godless for the 3rd world event, through a Scopulus, making him an ally. 00:23, July 15, 2015 (UTC)

I see that, we both agree on that, but now it comes down to having to add in Zamorak, Saradomin, and Armdayl as they are all comfirmed allies in this world ending type event. It was stated in game how can you deny that?Kcin2424 (talk) 00:38, July 15, 2015 (UTC)

Did they represent the Godless in the third world event, or in any way? No, so they are not needed to be added.. 00:43, July 15, 2015 (UTC)

It can be debated that the Vorago didn't represent the Godless too, he was representing himself as apparant by his I am in no part of them and the Godless rallied behind him making it the Voragoian faction. They were all in it together it was considered a Gielinor win and not a Godless win in the grand scheme of the event. So yes if one is added as an ally all of them are. It was one join effort: He did represent the Godless, if you look through the Dialouge that is pretty much you are looking through, you will see that the Scopulus states it is representing the Godless. And that,as well, through our interface, we saw that we were aligned with the Godless (if you were that is) Showing Scopulus representing them. As well as the God aligned spear that the Scopulus state, is also of the Godless, enough proof to say, he represented the Godless. So he is an ally, for representing them in a way to avoid other gods from gaining power, (it is within the Dialoud before Tuska death) as well as defending gielinor in the main cause of it all. SO Vorago remains as an ally, as he represented teh Godless in a way. It after Tuska death, the Scopulus states the earth allied it self with the Godless because it was needed. 00:58, July 15, 2015 (UTC)
 * "Moia: We've got a plan to weaken Tuska, but it requires us all to work together for the greater good.
 * Kamiee: This is true. We are required to be allies to prevent this global threat."Kcin2424 (talk) 00:52, July 15, 2015 (UTC)

To your representing point I present to you this again: You can't represent something you are not a part of. That would be saying a follower of Zamorak claiming to represent Bandos.The other gods are allies because they literally say in game dialog that they are allies. How does that make them no allies? When every faction agrees they are allies with each other in this event how can they not be allies?Kcin2424 (talk) 01:21, July 15, 2015 (UTC)
 * Scopulus: I am of the earth. The earth is not of the Godless. The earth is of the earth.
 * Scopulus: The earth stood with the Godless as the challenger approached. It was a necessity.
 * Scopulus: I do not stand here to aid these humans in their quest."

Once again, I state what I state, he represented teh Godless i nthe third world event, No denying that, you can representing something you are not part of, if both have a common goal, which once again I seem to have to repeat, Was ridding of Tuska, and not allowing the other gods to gain power. What the Scopulus is saying that, that he is not there to aid them in the quest of ridding of the gods, he is there (looking further into the talk, where he states why he is there) to guard the portal.

The Godless was represented by Vorago, an ally. He is an ally, and remains in it, as he represented the godless in the third world event, during the battle. After that, it was done. 01:28, July 15, 2015 (UTC)

Zamorak, Saradomin, Armadyl are all the same type of ally Vorago is to the Godless as proven by this:

"Moia:We've got a plan to weaken Tuska, but it requires us all to work together for the greater good.


 * Kamiee: This is true. We are required to be allies to prevent this global threat."Kcin2424 (talk) 02:41, July 15, 2015 (UTC)

Once again no, the Godless was represented by Vorago, not the other factions, or their gods. Vorago represented teh godless, making him an ally, if by ironic plot story from jagex, Zamorak represents teh Godless, then yes, he would be an ironic ally, but Vorago, represented the Godless, as a faction, he did not represent other factions. Why, As I stated before, Vorago is listed here as an ally, because he represented the godless for the 3rd world event, The other gods, represented their own faction. They are only allies in means that they helped each other out, while representing their own Faction. Vorago represented the Godless, and was stated in the dialoug during the event, that they "share a common belief, that teh gods should not have an agenda". Vorago is the only mean of ally to be listed, as he represented the godless alone, and not for another god, or being. Again, Vorago is listed as a being ally, not a faction. The Godless allied with the faction, not the god themselves. I am not going to continue this, as all we are doing is repeating our selves, mostly me, with the same thing i am stating, again, We are putting Vorago as a being, not a faction, the godless allied with the other 3 factions, not with the god themselves. So the page is to be left alone, as it is. we already went into an agreement of leaving Vorago in the page listed how he is. Because as i stated above, that you seemed to have ignored, Vorago is an ally because he represented the Godless, not other factions. What you keep putting doesn't prove that the gods represented the Godless as well, it only proved that each factions were allied. Which I keep saying, Vorago is a being, not a faction. 03:13, July 15, 2015 (UTC)

Please explain to me what exactly this means: Please explain how you can't understand this. what part of ALL OF US WORK TOEGETHER AND WE ARE REQUIRED TO BE ALLIES, makes it sound like the other gods aren't invovled in it?
 * "Moia: We've got a plan to weaken Tuska, but it requires us all to work together for the greater good.
 * Kamiee: This is true. We are required to be allies to prevent this global threat.

Also there was no discussion to agree that vorago should be listed but not all the other allies from the world event. Kcin2424 (talk) 11:09, July 15, 2015 (UTC)

Once again I repeate. "Vorago is listed as an ally because he represented teh Godless in the third world event." None of the other faction represented teh godless, they represented their own faction. Again, Vorago is listed as a being, not a faction, I don't know how hard it is for you to understand, that we are listing him as a being who represented the Godless, not a faction that helped with an army to stop Tuska. 15:30, July 15, 2015 (UTC)

Please explain to me what exactly this means: So since no one is denying it can we now add this:
 * "Moia: We've got a plan to weaken Tuska, but it requires us all to work together for the greater good.
 * Kamiee: This is true. We are required to be allies to prevent this global threat.Kcin2424 (talk) 19:35, July 15, 2015 (UTC)

Allies:


 * Vorago - The living force of the Anima Mundi on Gielinor who allied temporarily with the Godless, in order to defeatTuska out of necessity, but does not actually support their cause.
 * Zamorak - The god of chaos who allied temporarily with the Godless in order to defeat Tuska out of necessity, but does not support their cause.
 * Armadyl - The god of justice who allied temporarily with the Godless in order to defeat Tuska out of necessity, but does not support their cause
 * Saradomin - The god of order who allied temporarily with the Godless in order to defeat Tuska out of necessity, but does not support their cause

based on the dialog that occured during the world event stating all four factions were allies working towards the same cause and set their differences aside for the bigger picture.Kcin2424 (talk) 02:32, July 16, 2015 (UTC)

Kcin, Cane stated that the page is to be left like that. Vorago is a being, not a faction, it was said to drop this discussion, so drop it. Again, we added Vorago as a being, not a faction. 02:36, July 16, 2015 (UTC)

Please tell me how in game dialog is wrong? What part of all of them were temprary allies do you not understand? If you reread what I posted its a copy past of what vorago is the god as a being not a faction in your words. So if you say that is wrong then you are saying you are wrong to put vorago on as well. Untill it is proven that they were not allies(impossible) it should be added.Kcin2424 (talk) 02:47, July 16, 2015 (UTC)

And what part of adding Vorago as a being don't you understand? you want to add the Faction as alliance, we are adding Vorago as a being, not a faction, Cane said to leave it, so I reccomand u leave it, and drop it. 02:49, July 16, 2015 (UTC)

Adding him as a being instead of a faction doesn't change in game dialog stating all four factions(vorago as a being since you are adamant of repeating that for some reason). Please tell me how Cane proved in game dialog as wrong? Please tell me how it is wrong. Do the impossible prove the game is wrong about itself. It should be added as I suggested untill it can be proven wrong.Kcin2424 (talk) 02:52, July 16, 2015 (UTC)

Once again, He isn't a faction, Vorago is a being, No one is saying it is wrong, we are saying you're seeing it wrong, you want to add the faction, we are adding a being, enough Kcin, Cane said to drop it, and leave it to that, I am dropping it, two ppl out of one said to leave it, so leave it. 02:55, July 16, 2015 (UTC)

Again him being a faction or a being doesn't matter. The fact still stand all of them were allies in this event. If it isn't wrong why is it not on the wiki page? Please state where I say faction. Cause I state gods not factions. Last I checked gods are beings and not factions. Why don't you drop it let it be added because we both know you can't deny in game chat.Kcin2424 (talk) 03:00, July 16, 2015 (UTC)

How about this based on in game dialog:


 * Vorago - The living force of the Anima Mundi on Gielinor who allied temporarily with the Godless, in order to defeatTuska in Tuska comes out of necessity, but does not actually support their cause.
 * Zamorak - The god of chaos who allied temporarily with the Godless in order to defeat Tuska in Tuska comes out of necessity, but does not support their cause.
 * Armadyl - The god of justice who allied temporarily with the Godless in order to defeat Tuska in Tuska comes out of necessity, but does not support their cause
 * Saradomin - The god of order who allied temporarily with the Godless in order to defeat Tuska in Tuska comes out of necessity, but does not support their causeKcin2424 (talk) 11:25, July 16, 2015 (UTC)

It is already stated in the article that the Godless joined forces with the other three armies:

Scopulus acted as representative of both Vorago and the Godless on a temporary basis and actively worked with the Godless to defeat Tuska, while the other three had no such representation and passively worked with the Godless, which is why he is listed as an ally and the others are not, despite what Moia says 12:05, July 17, 2015 (UTC)

Then why is Vorago set alone in allies, he has as much loyalty to the Godless as Zamorak, Saradomin, or Armadyl does. The page should either have all four on there or none at all, they are all the same type of allies, it doesn't matter if one represented the other because they all represented Gielnior as a whole. So again either all of them should be on or none of them. You can't pick and choose when it comes to lore if you want your page to be correct.Kcin2424 (talk) 15:57, July 17, 2015 (UTC)

I Quote what Cane said; "Scopulus acted as representative of both Vorago and the Godless on a temporary basis and actively worked with the Godless to defeat Tuska, while the other three had no such representation and passively worked with the Godless, which is why he is listed as an ally and the others are not, despite what Moia says" Again, we are putting Vorago as an Ally as he represented the Godless in this event, we are putting him as him, not a faction. This page is a page based off the orginization. Zamorak, Saradomin, and Armadyl are no where loyal to this orginization as they do not represent the Godless bellef, nor did they represent this orginization as all, show us proof that they "ALONE" represented the origization, as a being, and we will add them. PLEASE DO NOT SAY "Moia" because that is a faction alliance, not a being that represented the godless, and their belief. Vorago, as i stated about, what twenty times, is here because he represented the orginization, and their belief, proof is here.:

Scopulus: My master represents the Godless here as we all share the same belief that Gods should not force themselves upon the people of the world and have agendas. What will happen remains to be seen.

So again, the reason we add Vorago is for teh following quote, He represented the godless as they all shared a common belief. So if for some ironic reason, Saradomin himself represents the godless, sharing tthe same beleif, ironicly, he will be an ally. But due to the fact that It was only a faction alliance. Vorago is an ally for the matter, as he represented the godless faction alone. So the pagee remains as it is, it is correct like that, and otehr agrees, end of this discussion. 16:25, July 17, 2015 (UTC)

Scopulus: It's true. Our masters are all forced to work together. We've been sent here in their stead as they cannot come themselves."

"Scopulus: It's not straightforward. Tuska is an ancient beast. Whilst we are here shielding everyone else from her gaze, we require defenders of Gielinor to step forward and infiltrate a weak-spot on Tuska."

Scopulus: I stand ready to act, should the Challengers parasites choose to despoil the earth.

Scopulus: The earth has no further interest here."

Scopulus: I am of the earth. The earth is not of the Godless. The earth is of the earth.

Scopulus: The earth stood with the Godless as the challenger approached. It was a necessity.

Scopulus: I do not stand here to aid these humans in their quest."

Please do go on about how much Vorago is loyal to the Godless. As well as please go on about how the other weren't allies too:

"Moia: We've got a plan to weaken Tuska, but it requires us all to work together for the greater good.

Kamiee: This is true. We are required to be allies to prevent this global threat."Kcin2424 (talk) 16:34, July 17, 2015 (UTC)

This discussion was over long ago, it will remain as it remains now, over, you can continue if you wish, cane's and my statement stands against yours, so the page remains as it is, if anyone else wishes to debate with you, they can, but this discussion is over and the page remains as it is, as you showed no proof of what I asked for, this the discussion is done. 16:37, July 17, 2015 (UTC)

DIdn't you say this? "What the Scopulus says is not what Vorago want to say" so why now are you claiming what Scop says represents what Vorago says now? There is a 7:1 dialog that states VORAGO IS NOT LOYAL TO THE GODLESS 8:0 depending how you view one of them. Yeah this discussion was over when in game Dialog stated all of them are allies the same and euqal. It was even more proven when dialog was presented that Vorago holds no loyalty to the Godless. My statements along WITH THE GAME'S stand against yours, and I'm sorry but you don't hold more say about the game than the game does itself. The page should not stand as it is as it is false and needs to be changed. I have shown no proof? Really no proof at all?

"Scopulus: It's true. Our masters are all forced to work together. We've been sent here in their stead as they cannot come themselves."

"Scopulus: It's not straightforward. Tuska is an ancient beast. Whilst we are here shielding everyone else from her gaze, we require defenders of Gielinor to step forward and infiltrate a weak-spot on Tuska."

Scopulus: I stand ready to act, should the Challengers parasites choose to despoil the earth.

Scopulus: The earth has no further interest here."

Scopulus: I am of the earth. The earth is not of the Godless. The earth is of the earth.

Scopulus: The earth stood with the Godless as the challenger approached. It was a necessity.

Scopulus: I do not stand here to aid these humans in their quest."

"Moia: We've got a plan to weaken Tuska, but it requires us all to work together for the greater good.

Kamiee: This is true. We are required to be allies to prevent this global threat."

Here I'll even add another one for you from Vorago himself:

"Vorago: No. Their concerns are not mine. I seek only to defend the deep earth, and to repel those who would do it harm."

You sure about none at all? Because that is a lot more than you have brought to the table. Kcin2424 (talk) 16:42, July 17, 2015 (UTC)

So as there is no response against the point that Vorago and the other 3 Gods are the same type of allies to the Godless, the page should either be updated to remove Vorago from the allies list or put in the other 3 Gods as allies as well. It was also agreed on that they are all the same type of alliance for the event. I see no need for the continued discussion as it is proven they were all allies during Tuska comes and the alliance ended when that event ended.Kcin2424 (talk) 03:17, July 19, 2015 (UTC)

Yes, no respond because the discussion is over, and the page is to be left how it is as enough ppl stated it should be left to how it is So good day to you. :D 03:26, July 19, 2015 (UTC)

There has been no response proving that Vorago is a long time alliance with the Godless, and everything saying it was purely temporary and Vorago has no interest in any matters unless it affects the Earth itself. Sorry but you can have all the people in the world saying an opinion that is wrong but when the facts state other wise the opinion is not true. So the page NEEDS to be changed. Unless it can be proved Vorago is a long time ally with in game lore to disprove the ingame lore that states it was purely temporary and Vorago does not care for the Godless. You cannot claim a discussion is done because you cannot back up your side, nor can you claim a discussion is done purely to help your side when it clearly is not done. Now I am in the position to claim it is done as all the evidence presented backs up my side and have the page changed based on lore. Kcin2424 (talk) 03:32, July 19, 2015 (UTC)
 * I haven't been following this interminable discussion so I don't know if a case has been made or not, but you do not have clearance to change the page simply because there has been no response. Please read our policy on silence and consensus. -- 04:55, July 19, 2015 (UTC)



On that point, I am making the same argument King does, but in my case it is valid to do so as it is backed up by the game. No matter how many people think other wise you can't prove the game wrong about itself. It could be claimed that under this: "The topic's arguments have been refuted and there is general consensus on which is the better and more accepted option." As there hasn't be a refute on the Vorago has no allegiance outside of the Tuska event, and it has been refuted that Vorago has an alliance forever with the Godless it is a consensus that the one that hasn't been refuted, because it can't be, is the better option. As King will never agree with something I stated, as you can tell by his denying of RS lore, there cannot be a consenus from him but the Game states what the Games states, and that cannot be refuted.Maybe read up on a topic before entering it so you know what you are talking about and what both sides are doing in the discussion, as well as what they are bringing to the table. King in his last several posts has stated the discussion is done which is going against any point under the policy but you single me out? I wonder why...Kcin2424 (talk) 05:04, July 19, 2015 (UTC)

Ontop of my last comment, Vorago being added onto the members list then switched to allies list wasn't a consensus and just happened. So if anything it should be removed like it was before untill this conversation is done.Kcin2424 (talk) 14:56, July 19, 2015 (UTC)

Based on the policy on silence and consensus presented by - Iiii I I, there has been closure based on these statements by Kinglink: " " Vorago tried to do this alone" "it only proved that each factions were allied.", and by Kane: "Scopulus acted as representative of both Vorago and the Godless on a temporary basis" And by myself stating that Vorago was only a temporary ally and by in game dialog:

"Vorago: No. Their concerns are not mine. I seek only to defend the deep earth, and to repel those who would do it harm."

"Scopulus: It's true. Our masters are all forced to work together. We've been sent here in their stead as they cannot come themselves."

"Scopulus: It's not straightforward. Tuska is an ancient beast. Whilst we are here shielding everyone else from her gaze, we require defenders of Gielinor to step forward and infiltrate a weak-spot on Tuska."

Scopulus: I stand ready to act, should the Challengers parasites choose to despoil the earth.

Scopulus: The earth has no further interest here."

Scopulus: I am of the earth. The earth is not of the Godless. The earth is of the earth.

Scopulus: The earth stood with the Godless as the challenger approached. It was a necessity.

Scopulus: I do not stand here to aid these humans in their quest."

"Moia: We've got a plan to weaken Tuska, but it requires us all to work together for the greater good.

Kamiee: This is true. We are required to be allies to prevent this global threat."

This discussion on Vorago being a temporary allie and should be removed from the permant allies list can come to a close.Kcin2424 (talk) 18:29, July 19, 2015 (UTC)

Guthixian in Nature
No they aren't, they are a new religion that doesn'y follow his full religion, only his death wish, Jagex stated the two religion are different, but Guthixian would be condiered Godless to others in NPC 00:50, June 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * This is from this wiki page as well: "This is backed by the fact that Kara-Meir contacted Biehn after having received his letter. The two agreed to create a faction to continue Guthix's belief of a world belonging to no god."
 * There is no evidence in the lore stating that they do not follow guthix only that they do follow guthix. His teachigns is him now that is what the wanted he didn't want to be seen as a god.
 * They donot follow Guthix, they follow his Death wish, no Gods on Gielinor. Kara-Mier and Biehn agreeing of a new order that is to follow no god, doesn't mean it is Guthixian in nature, it just mean it was founded by two Guthixian. Please do not continue to edit the Page until it is worked out, or a Wikia mod will block this page... 01:01, June 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Guthix isn't on Gielinor now is he? He passed away last I remembered. He accepted his death because he did not want gods on Gielinor and wanted people to lead their own lives. The godless follow Guthix's wish as a teaching and not Guthix himself because he did not want that. That being said doesn't mean they don't follow him still. Following someone's teachigns is still following the person.
 * Either way that doesn;t make them Guthixian in nature, it is a another faction it self, stop editing the page, we are causing a edit war. 01:08, June 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * By saying it isn't guthixian in nature you are contradicing what is said later. Please explain how it is not guthixian in nature if they are following GUTHIX'S TEACHINGS.
 * First, stop changing the page already, if u want an explanation, Second, they aren't worshiping the god, or following his entire teaching of balance, they are only following his death wish.if they were Guthixian in nature, they would have been named Guthixian, or followed his Teaching of balance, but tthey aren't, because NOT ALL follow the taeaching of balance. Biehn never believed in it, and Kara-Mier either. 01:15, June 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * You are the one changing it from what it was all day. So if anyone should stop it is you. They don't have to worship him as a god for it to be guthixian in nature, they aren't guthixians I'm not saying that. They are following his teachings which his teachings are guthixian because they are his. His philosophy wasn't about balance it was about having no gods impacting the people living on the planet. The balance was what came from having no gods. Just read what Guthix said in his dying words during the world wakes to realize that.


 * Now that the page is protected we can settle it in here. They do not follow his teaching, they follow his death wish, Following his teaching would mean for them to follow the side of balance, nature, and so on, and they do not, they only follow his Death wish, no gods on Gielinor, they follow no teaching, their own teaching is Protecing the mortals, and the world, no balance, which is Guthixian Teachings. 01:38, June 5, 2015 (UTC)


 * Since you don't know lore I will post it here for you since you are to lazy to find it yourself. This is guthix's belief and his philosophy this is taken from the world wakes:

Guthix: I chose tribes who had no concept of gods, and I brought them to Gielinor, to live uninfluenced lives while I retained the balance.Guthix: I was foolish; my plan would never work. I will continue my tale along the path. Please, meet me when you are ready.Guthix: I should have seen it coming. I introduced them to the world, I had a power greater than they had ever seen.Guthix: The mortal races began to worship me. They built shrines to me, made sacrifices. They waited on my every word.Guthix: It pained me deeply to see myself becoming what I had always loathed.Guthix: They should not have been living beneath me, serving me. I wanted them to be free, balanced, to make their own decisions.Guthix: The races brought in by the now-banished gods remained, and disrupted the balance at every turn. Battles raged on, in the names of the absent gods. Nature and balance were the aftermath of his philosophy not his beleif nor his philosophy. And here are his teachings: But Guthix never wanted me - us - to worship him. He wanted to abandon the notion of worship completely, so that he could retire and leave the world to mortals.- Book of the Godless.

Now please show your evidence saying they are not following this. Please show yoru evidence of why this isn't guthixian in nature when it is Guthix's belife, his philosophy and his teachings.

I am not saying they do not follow Guthix wish of No gods in Gielinor, and not to worship him, I am not saying they did not get that idea from his real ideal, I am saying they do not follow the GUTHIXIAN teaching of BALANCE. They may be following HIS DEATH WISH, but it doesn't mean it is GUTHIXIAN in Nature, it just mean they agree with the idea, because they see it is true of the gods destruction. A Wikia staff had reworded the Wikia into a way that I see is fair. But again, I am not saying they do not follow his death wish and True Ideal, I am saying the Guthixian teaching, the one Druids, Gnomes, Dwarves, and the Guardian of Guthix Juna Followed, they do not Follow that teaching, as they do not follow the TEACHING on balance, Biehn never did, nor did Kara-Mier, They did Worship him as a god, Kara-Mier followed some of religion teaching of balance, as the Druid turned off Biehn teaching od portals, due it it being unholy. So the Godless is not Guthixian in Nature, not inherently Because His Teaching, his TRUE Teaching of no gods wasn't discovered until his death, and the only teaching Guthixian had that was true, was Balance in all things. 01:58, June 5, 2015 (UTC)

Just what I thought you have nothing backing your opinion. You have yet to show why it is not Guthixian in nature. To be of guthixian nature that would be to use his teachings and his beliefs. Which I have already shown you have a misconception of. Please tell me where he has the beleif of nature first in this "Guthix: I chose tribes who had no concept of gods, and I brought them to Gielinor, to live uninfluenced lives while I retained the balance.Guthix: I was foolish; my plan would never work. I will continue my tale along the path. Please, meet me when you are ready.Guthix: I should have seen it coming. I introduced them to the world, I had a power greater than they had ever seen.Guthix: The mortal races began to worship me. They built shrines to me, made sacrifices. They waited on my every word.Guthix: It pained me deeply to see myself becoming what I had always loathed.Guthix: They should not have been living beneath me, serving me. I wanted them to be free, balanced, to make their own decisions.Guthix: The races brought in by the now-banished gods remained, and disrupted the balance at every turn. Battles raged on, in the names of the absent gods"

There you are wrong, I gave you the story of teh Book of the gods, as well as Old lore before the World wake, and what Juna said about Guthix's death. U just aren't trying to see the point, that they DO not follow his teaching, only his death wish. Again, they aren't Guthixian in nature, as they do not folow the teaching of the religion. because The religion still shun portal magic, working with demons, and other race that they think is a threat to balance. Godless disobey all of that teaching, So again, Guthixian in Nature no, if they do not follow the Religion Teaching. 02:21, June 5, 2015 (UTC)

Where was the quote you gave I didn't see quote and citation. Old lore can be very outdated(as shown by Zaros's old lore compared to his new lore) Please how they do not follow his teaching of no gods, please explain how they do not follow his do not worship gods teaching. He was the god of balance, that doesn't mean his teachings are balance. Just like Zamorak's teaching isn't chaos, its strength through chaos.Kcin2424 (talk) 02:46, June 5, 2015 (UTC)

I never said, again please read, I did not say they do not follow his teachings of no gods. I only am stating they do not following the Religion's full teaching. as stated above, beinng. The proof is IN the book of the gods, look it up, as I am not going to do what u say, because you want me to. His teachings were also balance. So again. The informations I told you are on The book of the gods, Juna, and Old lore of HIS religion, where they thought his teachings were like the druids study. As again, it is even still in the current lore, in the 5th age timeline. SO again, I am not saying they do not follow his death wish of No gods in gielinor, and no worship, but that doesn'y make them Guthixian in Nature, as again, Biehn left teh religion, and Druid to form a new Religion that can achieve his Death wish. and A lot of Mortals agree, and not all of them are Guthixian. SO please, Understand I am saying they aren't in nature as teh Religion (Guthixian, not the God him self) Teaching was, and still is based on what it is, Balance, peace, No gods, but only humans, gnomes and dwarves. Something Godless are different in. This is the 5th Time I had to repeate my self, Please look at the page, the Wikia Staff had ediit it a better wording. 02:53, June 5, 2015 (UTC)

Again no quote but again you claim blance, again I counter saying Zamorak is the god of chaos but his philosophy/beleif/teaching is strenght through chaos not chaos itself. In Guthix's case here it would be his belief is no gods, his tool is balance. Please provide quotes with sources showing how Guthix's teachings is not guthixian in nature when it is created by him. You can't say something isn't of x nature when x created it. Kcin2424 (talk) 02:58, June 5, 2015 (UTC)Kcin

I am not gonig to give u the proof, that u can look through your self. And his teaching is balance, meeting history, claims it, but if you want proof, go look for it, it is late over here, I am tired, I am not gonig my way to give someone proof, when I had to repeate several time where u can find it. Believe what you want, but they aren't Guthixian in Nature. Period they are their own religion and beleif, yes from another gods, who they agree with,. 03:05, June 5, 2015 (UTC)

You aren't going to give me that proof because you don't have it because it doesn't exist. Meeting history is old outdated lore. From Guthix himself it is not his belief it is an after affect of his belief. DO i have to requote that again? Do you not know the difference in lore from 5th age quests and 6th age quests? You repeat the same false opinion, you haven't been able to prove your side. It is not on me to find the proof to back you up, it is your job to do that and if you cannot do that then you show that it isn't there and you have nothing. They are Guthixian in nature all the evidence in this Talk points to it. Kcin2424 (talk) 03:22, June 5, 2015 (UTC)Kcin

It does exixt, U are a big boy, look for it. They aren't Guthixian in Nature, Meeting history is a quest, even in the Guthixian memories, From the tribute of guthix supports the Quests lore. U are a big boy, look for it. Don't want to, it's not my fault u cant see it here. I gave you location, I will not respond until u find it. 03:27, June 5, 2015 (UTC)

The burdon of proof lies on you, not me. I should not have to find a quote that disproves me, that is your responsiblity if you do not provide you are admitting you are wrong in this debate. You haven't proven they aren't Guthixian in nature not in a single bit. Meeting history is a 5th age quest, The world wake is a 6th age quest so in this case the world wake lore overrides the meeting history lore. Again it isn't my responsibility to find evidence for yoru side that is on you. It is your fault I can't see it because you haven't provided it. So with your last statement you are admitting it is Guthixian in nature as you fail to provide evidence other wise. Case closed they are inherently Guthixian. Kcin2424 (talk) 03:49, June 5, 2015 (UTC)Kcin

So can the page be fixed as we have shown and he has not shown they are guthixian in natureKcin2424 (talk) 13:02, June 5, 2015 (UTC)kcin


 * Besides them not being 'Guthixian in Nature', what would that even mean, it's not explained at all, not on the Guthix page either. Besides it being needlessly divisive, it's also likely false... why is it still locked and a problem even? Where is the other person arguing for the inclusion? And if that person does not show up, how long will it still be locked? 11:33, June 6, 2015 (UTC)
 * The page will remain protected until [ 01:19, June 12, 2015 (UTC)]. If the edit wars continue after the protection expires, the page may be protected again and those engaging in it may also be blocked. 16:44, June 6, 2015 (UTC)


 * To be Guthixian in nature would mean it resemebles of have the nature of what guthix said. In other words the roots of it are in Guthix which they are. Another way to say it is that they follow what Guthix teached, which again they do. They have the Guthixian nature that Guthix had against the gods. As well as the definition of inherent is "existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute" so following the teachings of Guthix(the wanting and having no gods on/effecting Gielinor) being essential to the godless belief would say it is inheretnly Guthixian in nature. I have proven that it isn't false to say it is Guthixian in nature as it follows Guthix's philosophy of having no gods on Gielinor. The other person left the discussion because he could not prove it is not Guthixian in nature which shows it is Guthixian in nature if that can be proved but it can't be proved that it isn't. So I ask again, in light of all the evidence, and no evidence showing it isn't in the nature of guthix could the page please be corrected.Kcin2424 (talk) 00:01, June 7, 2015 (UTC) kcin


 * Here you go.


 * 1. They are not Guthixian in nature for the fact that Guthix's Teaching in balance, is not what the Godless do. Remember, the Guthixian went against Guthix in worshipping him, and went into HIS teaching of Balance. "Where does it say he is the god of balance?" Right here of course <This page explains all of his philosophy, how he wished for a world of balance, and taught the mortal balance. The Godless do not follow this belief of balance, as the religion GUTHIXIAN do, and most member before going godless went against some of those rules. Like Biehn In the book of the gods, he states how he never believes in the religion, and how Guthix view on balance in all thing was false as the god him self was higher, HE questions the religion that was Mortal made. Not god made, as Guthix never wanted a religion dedicated to him, he study blood magick and portals against the Religions study. Oh? Proof? Right here in The Book of the Gods/The Book of the Godless it states, and I will gladly quote


 * "I noticed the flecks of blood on your last letter. It's always fun to play this game, and I get to uncork my bloodsource potions (not much call for them in sleepy Taverley). The potion's past its best, but I'd hazard a guess that the blood's human, from West Ardougne. Am I right? It would make the score 3-2 to me, I believe.

Anyway, Kara, I have news, some of which you'll have heard.

Guthix is dead, and the other druids are spreading the word to towns and cities. I'm not with them, as I'm leaving the order. It'll come as no surprise to you; I've been thinking about leaving for some time." (It pretty much shows there how he was going to leave being a Guthixian druid, as the next words there>)" I t rung false: why would Guthix want us to live as equals, if he was above us in every conceivable way - in wisdom, in morals, in power? I always mistrusted him for that ." He never beleived in the teaching and history of that religion, which is created by the mortals

"But Guthix never wanted me - us - to worship him. He wanted to abandon the notion of worship completely, so that he could retire and leave the world to mortals. When Kaqemeex told me that, a fog cleared. Everything I'd thought until then was wrong."

So I've left the druids, Kara. My new address is attached. When you've finished your bloody tour of Kandarin, would you come see me? I have a proposal, and I wonder if you'd be interested in pursuing it.

Safest regards,

- Bieh"

BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE!

"Biehn,

Yep, you guessed right - she was from West Ardougne. Not sure you get the victory, though, as your details were a little vague. She was middle aged, a Zamorakian spy, and missing an arm when she died.

Sure, I'd heard about Guthix - hard not to. The Zamorakian monks to the west keep claiming the kill, as if they slipped a knife in his side personally. Course, the monks say that with Guthix gone, chaos reigns, the world is Zamorak's etc.

Glad to hear you've moved on from the druids. They were bound to chuck you out for your blood potions and portal magicks," ( This means that being a Guthixian druid, the religion told him against the work of portal Magicks and blood potions.)"anyhow. I guess you keep your reputation this way - whatever that reputation is. Old, gruff and verging on crazy?

I can't make it to your new address - not for a while, anyway. Do you mind sending me your proposal in a letter? Should be safe as long as you threaten the courier a little. An honest threat dispatches a letter, quick and unread.

I'm developing an entourage - if one person counts. You said I should travel with others, so I'm with a demon called Ux. Don't worry, he's not your traditional horns-and-brimstone type. He's broken from the Demon Pact and plans to take arms against Zaros and Zamorak. Thought that might interest you.

- Kara-Meir"

This here means Kara-Meir, a Guthixian who didn't follow the Religion's teaching COMPLETLY was willing to work with a demon, even in the Novel she showed some signs of, agressive behavior before being godless.

More evidence to come :D

"Dear Kara-Meir,

Good grief - a demon? Always wanted to know about the Infernal Dimensions, and how Zaros got them to sign the pact. You have to admire using the demons' love of contracts against them." (No Guthixian wants to know this.)

I've risked writing my proposal in a letter. It's against my better judgment to send it like this, but the post-boy had an honest face and - once he read your name on the envelope - he knew what would happen if it was waylaid.

So, to my proposal. I apologise for the bombast. It's a fantastic opportunity to be self-important:

'This world - Gielinor - is for mortals. It is not for gods, since they can find no peace with one another, let alone us. Gods bring war, know war, and are war. It is mortals alone that can find peace, as long as they share a common ground, and that common ground is a defence against gods.'

So, I want to gather like-minded people. I want to gather those that have a shred of doubt when they pray; who feel a tug of fear that the gods are returning; who question the right for gods to rule. I want to gather these people and form an alliance, changing the minds of the populace, standing firm and silent against the gods. I want the gods to be faced with a wall of resistance - and I want them to leave.

And I want you to help me do it. What do you think? That sit right with you? I was considering 'The Antitheists' as a name.

Safest regards,

- Biehn"

So, from all this, two Former Guthixian made a Faction not for Guthix's name, but for mortal's sake, into taking action against the gods.

2. Guthix IS the god of balance. Not because he says so, no, remember, he never wanted to be worshipped, or have a religion dedicated to him. My proof? Up there on Number one. What can't seee it? it's on Guthix's Page of course. What made him into the GOD OF BALANCE is from what he taught the mortals on the 1st age of Gielinor before sleeping. What? Need proof? Ok here you go:

Laura, Meeting History:"[Guthix] spoke a lot about balance, and encouraging us to live in harmony with our surroundings - to feel free to use our environment; but not to abuse it."

Here, from what Guthix told them, they saw him as a god when he showed them Gielinor, and sought him as teh God of balance soon. Oh, need proof of the worshipping him asap? There you go!:

Guthix The World Wakes/Transcript "The mortal race began to worship me. They built shrines to me. Made sacrifices. They waited on my every word. it pained me deeply to see my self becoming what I had always loathed."

Pretty much Guthixian is a religion for Guthix made by mortals, only going to what he taught and beleived it. "But where does he say his belief is Balance?"

Again? Well if you insists :) He says so right in the Guthixian Memories

Memory 15

"...The creatures still remembered me, and I could not help but reveal myself to them as I rebuilt. Yet, I still wanted them to forget. The world was as safe as I could make it. I resolved to sleep once more, for as long as it took. No gods, no war. Nature, balance, freedom, and peace..."

Lets not forget in the World wakes he states:Guthix: Player, I have been the most powerful being on Gielinor since my arrival. Of course I could have stopped Sliske if I had desired to. But I embrace my death. It must occur, if the world is to be balanced.

He clrearly states be believes in balance there, his philosophy even during the quest, which you can see the walk through here:The World Wakes Where there is a puzzle door that shows a bar on either you being good, or evil, and picking a neutral/Balanced side will grant you Guardian of Guthix power. even in his Wikia page quotes. "Guthix was the god of balance, and wished to have a world without gods where mortals could live in peace and balance without interference."

He was on the side of balance.

Point to take. All this proof comes to show that

1. Godless do not share the Religion (not the god, religion) teachings, which shows they are not inherently Guthixian as they go against all of the Religions teachings, a few memberrs may be Guthixian, but other mortals from around the world, in other race and religion joined them, which goes against them being inherently Guthixian.

2. His death wish is not is a philosophy, yes he did want it, and believed it to bring balance into the world, but it doesn't mean that his religion follows it. Remember after his death his religion no longer exists, as the truth of what he wanted is out. He never taught those who worshipped him about a world of no gods. if he did, then yes, the Godless would be inherently Guthixian due for him teaching them that only difference would be that the Godless don't worship him, and never did. But he didn't taught them that, it was revealed that we worshipped him when he didn't want it, he was being a teacher, not a God for a religion.

An example on how his philosophy is not a religion thing is Publix. Their founder has a philosophy where all customers needs to be treated like guests in a house, and all employees needs to be treated as a family member. This doesn't mean the company worships him, are Georgians, and do his Philosophy as a god. It means they respect it, and wish to continue it after he died, to respect and honor his view of a better work place. This goes to the same with Guthix. His religion was going against what he believed in because he said nothing. But once he said the truth, a few stood up together to honor his dying wish, that he asked the World guardian to do, not a bunch of random mortals. He would be proud of us yes. But this doesn't make us inherently Guthixian, as the religion went against his belief, only went to his philosophy of balance, and knew nothing of his truth after his death. So no my friend, after proving to you, that they are not inherently Guthixian, due to the fact the religion had nothing to do with Guthix death wish, is no longer a religion but a belief after his death, and him giving us his death wish doesn't make it a teaching he gave to those who worshipp him, because he never wanted to be worshipped, or a religion to begin with. So teh Godless are not Guthixian inherently or in Nature, as the Religion was false from the start, and Guthix wanted nothing to do with it. Two people agrees that they are not. 03:58, June 13, 2015 (UTC)

To the people who misunderstood what Kcin2424 said he was saying they have roots of guthix and not a guthix faction and reread these quotes: From the world wakes : Guthix: I chose tribes who had no concept of gods, and I brought them to Gielinor, to live uninfluenced lives while I retained the balance.

Guthix: I was foolish; my plan would never work. I will continue my tale along the path. Please, meet me when you are ready.

Guthix: I should have seen it coming. I introduced them to the world, I had a power greater than they had ever seen.

Guthix: The mortal races began to worship me. They built shrines to me, made sacrifices. They waited on my every word.

Guthix: It pained me deeply to see myself becoming what I had always loathed.

Guthix: They should not have been living beneath me, serving me. I wanted them to be free, balanced, to make their own decisions.

Guthix: The races brought in by the now-banished gods remained, and disrupted the balance at every turn. Battles raged on, in the names of the absent gods.

Please tell me how that has nothing to do with no gods teaching.

And here is the other point that backs up that they follow Guthix's teachings and are Guthixian IN NATURE and not a Guthixian faction.

But Guthix never wanted me - us - to worship him. He wanted to abandon the notion of worship completely, so that he could retire and leave the world to mortals. When Kaqemeex told me that, a fog cleared. Everything I'd thought until then was wrong. - Book of the Gods/GodlessKcin of Zamorak (talk) 14:08, June 13, 2015 (UTC)

Same proof the numbered one gave out, how they started, and I still stand with my source. Those aren't teachings because he never taught a religion that, he just stood there and watched. As I stated before. Guthix death wish is a wish, something he wanted for mortals, not a teaching as the religion it self had no teaching of it, and is not a belief to others. Godless is a new Philosophy that agrees with Guthix's death wish of the world. They may agree with a belief, but that doesn't make them inheritly Guthixian. IF a Jagex mod is to say otherwise, all case would be closed. But there is nothing supporting that they are Guthixian in nature, as nothing shows them following the Religion (not the god, religion) teaching, and believe in a world of no Gods. If you reread what I posted, the only roots they have, is belief of no gods in gielinor, but it doesn't mean they are Guthixian in Nature. Those Proof you gave me, are teh same as Kcin2424, just information on them being made, nothing shows they are Guthixian by Nature, because they aren't. As I said, if a Jagex Mod says otherwise, then anything goes. But nothing supports that proof. 14:25, June 13, 2015 (UTC)

Page changes/edit war
To the person who keeps changing the page to false information please read the discussion. It has been proven that they are guthixian in nature and nothing to show that they aren't.Kcin2424 (talk) 01:48, June 13, 2015 (UTC)

"Guthixian"
First of all, I have no idea which side of the argument above is right, nor do I have an opinion on the matter. Seeing the discussion, I wonder if everyone has the same definition of what "Guthixian" (in the current context) encompasses, however. Does "Guthixian" mean "the religion formed by people worshipping Guthix as the God of Balance in all things", or "following the true wish of Guthix to create a world without worship"? IP83.101.44.209 (talk) 14:20, June 13, 2015 (UTC)


 * Now adays it's a belief. True wish of guthix in a world with out gods would be Godless view. Guthixian wwould be of Godless view in no gods, but also in his teachings of balance in all things as well. 14:33, June 13, 2015 (UTC)


 * Are we going to say then that Kara-Meir is Bandosian in nature, since all she seems to want to do is Fight and Kill all the gods? The Godless are a seperate facion from the Guthixian, it's even stated in the letters the FOUNDER of the organisation. Just because they happen to have at least one main point of view similar (or even identical) to that of Guthix, doesn't mean they're Guthixian in nature let alone Guthixian. Also... if this is what you'd define as "Guthixian" would you also say that "Guthixians" are not "Guthixian", because some still follow Guthix as they did before TWW? Just because they share one of two things with something else, doesn't mean you can and should equate them. All it does is giving people the wrong idea, while it doesn't really make it a ot more clear (it warrants further explanation, which would not be needed if it wasn't added, a different explanation would be just as good - from your pov, surely). It doesn't add anythin substantice at all, all it does is seed confusion. 82.74.146.3 17:24, June 14, 2015 (UTC)
 * Pretty much my point proven there. With so much saying no on Guthixian in Nature, the words in the page should stay how it is. 17:31, June 14, 2015 (UTC)

Re:Everything above
Holy crap, guys, what's wrong with you! O.O 07:10, June 15, 2015 (UTC)


 * I wanna say everything lol. Nah, just this dude trying to hard to say Godless are Guthixian in Nature. His stuff shows no proof, so I how my stuff on proof how they are not. Any statement on your own :o? 14:07, June 15, 2015 (UTC)


 * From what it looks like to me is this, you(king) are saying they are not a Guthixian faction. While kcin is saying they originate from Guthix's teachings meaning they have some history from there and it is a part of their faction even though the two factions are different. Both are correct it looks like everything is just a miscommunication.Eragon the Slayer (talk) 16:01, June 15, 2015 (UTC)


 * If you read through everything i said, i am saying they aren't Guthixian in Naure, or even part of any roots, as Godless not something Guthix taught to his followers, and is something that exist even before him. Example is teh Icyene, most fought against Saradomin but failed. Zamorak, in the view of killing a god. And the eastern islands, who don't worship no gods, only a few worshiped one, but most only go through the point of Anima mindi as power source. 16:12, June 15, 2015 (UTC)


 * This wiki page even states that they follow/continue the teachings of Guthix. As the page puts it "to continue Guthix's belief of a world belonging to no god. "Eragon the Slayer (talk) 16:23, June 15, 2015 (UTC)


 * Their belief is the same as Guthix wish, doesn't make them Guthixian in Nature. Guthix wish is not a teaching, it's a belief, he never taught his followers about no gods and worship. This page only stated that their philosophy is similar to the wishes of the god of balance, Guthix, not teaching (which is balance in all things) Wish, something he wants us as world guardian to do. The Godless follow no teachings, and just have the belief that Guthix wanted us to have, a world where mortals can rule. 21:56, June 15, 2015 (UTC)
 * Hell no, I'm staying out of this! 08:41, June 16, 2015 (UTC)

For the record, Kcin of Zamorak and Eragon the Slayer are sockpuppets of Kcin2424. 11:59, June 16, 2015 (UTC)


 * Then from everything else done. This this page is to remain with the wording it has.Seeing how ppl agreed they are not Guthixian in nature during the time, and there being no proof of them being it in Nature. Only change of that will be made if Jagex said other wise 15:02, June 16, 2015 (UTC)

First off those accounts were created by Adventureres and not myself so do not try and drag my name through mud.

Everything is not done until the wording is correct. The Godless are inherenetly Guthixian in nature. The only people who agreed they are not Guthixian in nature are you and Gaz both of which blocked me because I was proving right. I come bearing more evidence. This time direct comparisons to what Guthix has said, and what Godless faction members have said as well as other sources that have been told of guthix and his edicts and such and as such Jagex has said otherwise against you. Here you go see all of the almost word for word in some cases:


 * Mortals are made to be free. I am in no hurry to be led by an imbecile who craves nothing but power. Why should anyone but me decide my fate?
 * Biehn, our leader, set up the Godless in the hope that we might free mortals from the tyranny of gods. We do not need to worship them.


 * – Kara-Meir on tuska’s back


 * I chose tribes who had no concept of gods, and I brought them to Gielinor, to live uninfluenced lives while I retained the balance.
 * I was foolish; my plan would never work. I will continue my tale along the path. Please, meet me when you are ready.
 * I should have seen it coming. I introduced them to the world, I had a power greater than they had ever seen.
 * The mortal races began to worship me. They built shrines to me, made sacrifices. They waited on my every word.
 * It pained me deeply to see myself becoming what I had always loathed.
 * They should not have been living beneath me, serving me. I wanted them to be free, balanced, to make their own decisions.
 * By a mortal. Someone with the power to defend against the gods, but not the power to be one.
 * If the gods are not stopped
 * -Guthix the world wakes


 * I remember why it was agreed with Guthix. Gods and their wars are something to be rejected.


 * -Hero’s welcome( V )


 * Guthix’s edicts:
 * When Guthix laid down his edicts and forced the other gods to flee


 * –Hero’s welcome(Yrsa)

The godless not wanting gods(ban/kill depending on the side within the faction).Kcin2424 (talk) 21:56, July 14, 2015 (UTC)


 * You were blocked for edit warring and ban evading. If you start editing the page again before this discussion is settled, you will be blocked again. Both of you, if needed. 22:30, July 14, 2015 (UTC)


 * I was blocked for 1 day for edit warring(which adventureres never recieved seems suspsicous) I did not ban evade as you never provided anything showing all the accounts you claim were mine matched me. Again as I said above check the time stamps, I posted in here before editing.Kcin2424 (talk) 22:44, July 14, 2015 (UTC)
 * Holy shit. We provided so much proof. You can stop denying it and living in your delusional little world! 22:45, July 14, 2015 (UTC)


 * Oh you mean the mismatching ip addresses that didn't match mine? I also like how you guys avoid the points I make because you cannot deny that GUthix and the Godless are intertwined in some way shape or form on the making.Kcin2424 (talk) 23:09, July 14, 2015 (UTC)
 * Kcin, Once again you only provided little to no proof as before, now you are providing the same proof once again, only adding the Hero's Welcome update. Once again as I stated above before, enough, it was already proven to you that a one person belief is not a Religion belief. So enough. Your are once again dragging this to the same line as you did before. They are not Guthixian in Nature or inharited. Because Guthixian had a different point of view long ago, and only relized what it was afterwards, when guthix died. Leave the page alone, continuing this will just lead you to continue an ongoing spam of things, it was put to an end long ago, so please just let it go. (No song please lol) 23:34, July 14, 2015 (UTC)


 * Multiple forms of proof were provided, and after the final block I was contacted by Wikia staff who confirmed (using other tools) that all of the accounts were yours.
 * I largely don't care about the argument of each side. I'm not going to be the deciding admin. I'm also not going to continue. You've had your warning, now try to come to a consensus. 23:30, July 14, 2015 (UTC)


 * @ advent Actually it is not the same proof it is a comparison, showing how very much alike both are. Did you not compare the highlighted parts I tried to make it obvious. And of course when new lore comes out that will be included so why would I leave it out? It might seem the same line to you, but that line still wasn't proven wrong and now are you going to say in game dialog that matches up to saying almost the same thing will be wrong? Why don't you leave the page first I am showing how they are related to Guthix's beliefs on no gods on Gielinor. How about we just leave the part under debate out of the page untill it is fully decided?


 * @Gaz care to explain the below "formal investigation" thing? I'm confused.Kcin2424 (talk) 00:08, July 15, 2015 (UTC)


 * Kcin, you already did several times before, and I told you once again, YES, both GUTHIX him self and the godless share the same common goal, a world with out gods. What you are trying to prove, is that GODLESS and GUthixian are the same belief. I already told you, GUTHIX and GODLESS same Goal GUTHIXIAN (no longer a religion) Not the same goal, as in the past, they had different view, and now, it is more of a belief of balance, something Godless do not do. Yes, it is the same thing you are showing, as nothing up there backs you up rather than showing how the Godless were made, and how much of a hero Guthix is seen. Nothing more, Again, GUthix and Godless, yes both share a common goal, but you're once again, stating religion, not the God him self, it is already stated on this page, that Godless share the death wish of Guthix. 00:19, July 15, 2015 (UTC)


 * So a god dying with the same goal as you call it, belief as i call it, with a faction that only rose after his death has nothing to do with each other? The god dying led to the creation of the Godless faction. I am not trying to say that the Godless and the Guthixians(nature ones) are the same belief. I am saying the Godless and Guthix himself share the same belief of a world with no gods.Guthixian in the case I am saying is of Guthix, not of Guthix's old faction. Guthix himself had a beliefe of balance coming from a world with NO GODS the Godless want the same goal(but without calling it balance but as free will type thing) from a world with NO GODS. I am stating the God himself I am using his own words and what he believes compared with what the godless say and their own beliefs.Kcin2424 (talk) 00:43, July 15, 2015 (UTC)


 * If you are stating the god himself, the Page already states it, That teh Godles share the same beliefe as Guthix, Yes his death rose them up, everything u just said now, right there, is on the page. But they are not in any matter, the same as Guthixian, even if you mean by Nature or so, because the two have different belief, even if now one has a goal. But again, The page already states, that the Godless shares teh Death view of Guthix. But are not related to Guthixian, as teh religion Guthixian has a whole teaching based off what Guthix tought the mortals in the first age. 00:49, July 15, 2015 (UTC)


 * Then why doesn't the page state that they are inherently Guthixian(the god) in nature because they share the same belief and the god was the original "godless member"? The godless have two differen't beliefs within themselves so does that make them not themselves by nature to since they are divided? You are condracting yourself by saying they have the same belief as guthix but they don't have the same belief as guthix.Kcin2424 (talk) 00:56, July 15, 2015 (UTC)


 * Because again, Guthixian is a religion, not the god himself, Again, it is stated that they share the view of the god's death wish, but they are not inherently Guthixian because Guthixian is a religion thing, that has teachings that Guthix tought the mortals in the first age, it is considered as a belief now because the god is dead, but the Godless do not share Guthixian teaching, nor has it originated from Guthixian teaching, it originated from a god, who had a death wish, not from his teaching. 01:02, July 15, 2015 (UTC)


 * There are 2 guthixian meanings, to be of guthix, and the religion. Just as there are 2 godless, to be of the faction and to not have a god. I am talking of being of Guthix not the relgion how many times do i have to repeat that? So is not having a god but you don't count all those into the Godless catagory. So you can be guthixian following the gods beliefs without being guthixian faction. But it has originiated from his teachings the whole idea of no gods on gielinor is his teachings.Kcin2424 (talk) 01:17, July 15, 2015 (UTC)


 * He did not teach the beleif of no gods, is what I am trying to tell you, he hid that to himself, until he died, his goal on a world of no gods was not a beleif. The Godless originated from his death wish to us, the player, on a world of no gods. Not from a religion, who had no idea until the end. Again, it is stated their belief is the same as Guthix's Death wish, but he did not teach it, he only revealed it, as a mortal, with a dying wish, not a god, teaching it. 01:31, July 15, 2015 (UTC)


 * He didn't because he couldn't he was asleep. When he awoke he did teach it, he taught it to us to defend the world giving us the world guardian title. He did teach it when he brought godless(those without a god) mortal onto this plane. So the Godless originated from Guthix sounds like what I have been saying...Kcin2424 (talk) 02:39, July 15, 2015 (UTC)


 * Wrong, he didn't teach his life goal to us, he told us his goal, He didn't teach it to the mortals either, because if he did they wouldn't have followed any god, they would have nor worshipped him either, but instead, he tought them of balance, and they worshipped him as a god of balance, and he hid away, hoping to be forgotten. Again, yes, The Faction was made after Guthix's death wish, but it does not have anyything connected with the Religion at all. Which As I said, it is stated in the wikia, that Guthix's death wish is the Godless belief. Guthix didn't teach Godlessness, Godlessness was formed because his goal inspired people to form it. The Religon that haad no teaching of Godlessness, did not originate it. So the page is to remain, as it already state what you been aiming for, That the Godless belief is similar to Guthix's Death wish. 03:04, July 15, 2015 (UTC)


 * You sir are wrong and stubborn you are literally changing what you are saying in every response to make you seem like you aren't confirming what I am saying. How do you teach someone something, you tell them knowledge. Guthix did teach us his belief. He didn't have to teach it to the original mortals as they were already following it by not having a sense of gods, that backfired on him and he admitted that. Please cite where it states he taught of balance, and cite where it says he wanted to be worshipped. For the hundreth time I am not talking about the religion, you keep going back to stuff I'm not talking about is proving I am correct as you are trying to avoid the point at hand because you cannot defeat it. So I'll post it again for you to read:

The Godless are inherenetly Guthixian in nature. The only people who agreed they are not Guthixian in nature are you and Gaz both of which blocked me because I was proving right. I come bearing more evidence. This time direct comparisons to what Guthix has said, and what Godless faction members have said as well as other sources that have been told of guthix and his edicts and such and as such Jagex has said otherwise against you. Here you go see all of the almost word for word in some cases:


 * Mortals are made to be free. I am in no hurry to be led by an imbecile who craves nothing but power. Why should anyone but me decide my fate?
 * Biehn, our leader, set up the Godless in the hope that we might free mortals from the tyranny of gods. We do not need to worship them.


 * – Kara-Meir on tuska’s back


 * I chose tribes who had no concept of gods, and I brought them to Gielinor, to live uninfluenced lives while I retained the balance.
 * I was foolish; my plan would never work. I will continue my tale along the path. Please, meet me when you are ready.
 * I should have seen it coming. I introduced them to the world, I had a power greater than they had ever seen.
 * The mortal races began to worship me. They built shrines to me, made sacrifices. They waited on my every word.
 * It pained me deeply to see myself becoming what I had always loathed.
 * They should not have been living beneath me, serving me. I wanted them to be free, balanced, to make their own decisions.
 * By a mortal. Someone with the power to defend against the gods, but not the power to be one.
 * If the gods are not stopped
 * -Guthix the world wakes


 * I remember why it was agreed with Guthix. Gods and their wars are something to be rejected.


 * -Hero’s welcome( V )


 * Guthix’s edicts:
 * When Guthix laid down his edicts and forced the other gods to flee


 * –Hero’s welcome(Yrsa)

The godless not wanting gods(ban/kill depending on the side within the faction)

Guthix didnt teach it, he told us his goal, once again I tell you, the page remains as it is, no one agreed with you, I am not alone with this, Others on the top even stated no, page has been edited even open for edit, and no one touched it. Godless are not related to Guthixian in any way. The page is to be left as it is, as I repeated that tons of times, You want me to site you proof that I did before that he taught them of balance? Here, let me give you the entire essay I wrote for you before:

Laura, Meeting History:"[Guthix] spoke a lot about balance, and encouraging us to live in harmony with our surroundings - to feel free to use our environment; but not to abuse it."

Here, from what Guthix told them, they saw him as a god when he showed them Gielinor, and sought him as teh God of balance soon. Oh, need proof of the worshipping him asap? There you go!:

Guthix The World Wakes/Transcript "The mortal race began to worship me. They built shrines to me. Made sacrifices. They waited on my every word. it pained me deeply to see my self becoming what I had always loathed."

Pretty much Guthixian is a religion for Guthix made by mortals, only going to what he taught and beleived it. "But where does he say his belief is Balance?"

Again? Well if you insists :) He says so right in the Guthixian Memories

Memory 15

"...The creatures still remembered me, and I could not help but reveal myself to them as I rebuilt. Yet, I still wanted them to forget. The world was as safe as I could make it. I resolved to sleep once more, for as long as it took. No gods, no war. Nature, balance, freedom, and peace..."

Lets not forget in the World wakes he states: Guthix: Player, I have been the most powerful being on Gielinor since my arrival. Of course I could have stopped Sliske if I had desired to. But I embrace my death. It must occur, if the world is to be balanced.

"He clearly states be believes in balance there, his philosophy even during the quest, which you can see the walk through here:The World Wakes Where there is a puzzle door that shows a bar on either you being good, or evil, and picking a neutral/Balanced side will grant you Guardian of Guthix power. even in his Wikia page quotes. "Guthix was the god of balance, and wished to have a world without gods where mortals could live in peace and balance without interference."'

Again, there is a different in teaching, and revealing his goal. Guthix gave us, world guardian a task to protect the world from the gods, because he was against it. HE did not teach us this, he revealed and tasked us this. The page already revealed that their belief is the same as Guthix's goal/wish, and the religion did not originated the faction, which is why we are saying it is not related in any matters, as the god did not teach his religion his life goal/wish. So again as i repeate so many times, the page already states that it has connection to Guthix's wish. but it is not the same as Guthixian because it is a religion that was formed out through balance, not through his life goal of no gods. PLEASE DO READ EVERYTHING CAREFULLY.

Second, you weren't blocked by me, as I cannot block, you were blocked for having more accounts to back you up on you're own statement, when it is against the Wikia rules, you were asked to stop but continued, they show you proof but you don't accept it and try to go away to even blame someone else, you weren't blocked because you showed proof, even others above this statement states those aren't proof. Either way, you need to stop and let teh past go, and as well as carefully think on what you are doing now, no one is responding to you because they given up on trying to explain, I haven't, I am still putting up a few fight, even while you're still being rude and hard headed and so on.

So again, the page is to be left as it is, as it states that their beleif are the same as Guthix deathwish, something you wanted to point out. 15:30, July 15, 2015 (UTC)

Guthix was a god who had a religion dedicated to him, with his teaching of balance, Guthix has no relation to that. Guthix's death wish was not a teaching, it was a goal, a task given to us as world guardian. SirNigel (talk) 16:22, July 15, 2015 (UTC)SirNigel

@ Both of you reread all of this:

We do not need to worship them. 

– Kara-Meir on tuska’s back

no concept of gods

I wanted them to be free

to make their own decisions .

<span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:115%;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-attachment:initial;background-size:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;background-position:initial;background-repeat:initial;">-Guthix the world wakes

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in0in0.0001pt0.5in;line-height:15.75pt;"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;border:1ptnonewindowtext;padding:0in;background:yellow;">agreed with Guthix. Gods and their wars are something to be rejected. <span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in0in0.75pt0.5in;line-height:15.75pt;"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">-Hero’s welcome( V )

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in0in0.0001pt0.5in;line-height:15.75pt;"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;border:1ptnonewindowtext;padding:0in;background:yellow;">forced the other gods to flee <span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in0in0.75pt0.5in;line-height:15.75pt;"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">–Hero’s welcome(Yrsa)

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in0in0.75pt0.5in;line-height:15.75pt;">

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in0in0.75pt0.5in;line-height:15.75pt;"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">Yes no relation, yes guthix didn't make the godless they say, they are correct they say. The evidence is stacked against you Guthix was "godless" before the godless were even a faction.75.170.248.222 19:32, July 15, 2015 (UTC)

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in0in0.75pt0.5in;line-height:15.75pt;"> Once again, my statement still stands. 19:40, July 15, 2015 (UTC)

Formal investigation
After a thorough investigation I have determined beyond a shadow of a doubt that User:Kcin2424 is actually User:Gaz Lloyd. The IPs match exactly and their mannerisms are identical. As users are only allowed to have one account, all of Gaz's side accounts will be blocked per RS:GTS. I have issued a warning to Gaz and will be closely watching his behavior in the coming months. Thank you and have a pleasant tomorrow. 23:19, July 14, 2015 (UTC)
 * Better idea: Lock the page from editing. 01:00, July 15, 2015 (UTC)