Talk:Summoning

I noticed that many of the summon familiars are in the newly updated runescape screenshots page at runescape.com! I don't know if they will be of any use, but possibbly until some members of the wiki get the levels to summon them - I'd add them but I don't know the names and I don't like this skill. Edenane 03:11, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Is it worth me adding a list on what creatures you can summon? So far there are two shown via the image icons on the main page: wolpertinger and spirit wolf. Mr. Garrison 12:47, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * They haven't said that those will necessarily be released. Speculation doesn't belong in articles. Skill 19:44, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

A Forum Mod stated that Wolpertingers and Spirit Wolves are definitely going to be Summonable. He also said Dreadfowls will be too. 15:18, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
 * A Forum mod? God knows they are reliable, i mean, its not like they work for jagex or anything, so they must know things only jagex would know. 1diehard1 03:36, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

For training summoning at low level the player can buy chickens in Canifis shop for 9gp each --212.117.117.105 19:02, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Deletion
Should this page be deleted? It seems that whenever there is an article about something that will happen in the future or be released in the future, it gets deleted with the deletion caption being something like "wait, not out yet" (Some examples are 2007 Hallowe'en event, Clan war, Grand Exchange (pages might only be able to be seen by admins)). What would make this different? 23:14, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Seeing as how Jagex has actually released content (Development Diaries, wallpapers, etc) for this upcoming skill, I think the article is at least potentially worth keeping around. As it's only about a month or month-and-a-half until the skill is released and this article evolves anyway, I don't think it matters too much right now whether it exists or not, so why bother deleting it? --Nightforge 23:29, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm just trying to say that if consistency with deletion is going to be achieved, this oughta' be deleted. 04:12, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


 * And by the time that's resolved, it'll probably be time to create the page anyway. Aside from that, though I agree with what you're saying, there's nothing in the Deletion Policy about a case like this, and the closest case I can find being #1 and #2 here. --Nightforge 04:29, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Hhmmm... Criteria number 1 in RS:NIP says that things like upcoming events and mini-games, like that clan wars mini-game, are allowed to be created. Now that I've seen this, I change my point of view. 04:34, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I think this page should only have the skill related things that other pages have. We can move the historical and speculation stuff to another page that we can link to at the bottom of the skill page. Anyway, thats my vote.--Degenret01 04:47, 16 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Why? The history and such are part of summoning, and I see no need to split up articles until they get unreasonably long. We would need to clean up the article, though, and maybe make the tables more compact, but that has to be done anyway. Skill 05:06, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Move to new page upon release
Upon the release of summoning should we move all the content on this page to something such as, Speculation before the release of summoning? Or anything else. Whiplash 19:12, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Sounds reasonable. And merry Christmas. =D
 * We should just keep the current content on the History section which is now the only section of the article. Xammer 17:30, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Monday
This skill is going to be out Monday January 7, 2008. I don't have a source I can list, but I do have one, and it's pretty much common sense. It's speculation, I guess, which is why it's here and not on the article. But still. Monday. 72.240.163.23 14:21, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

The Development Diary will almost definitely be released on Thursday the 10th (don't shoot me if I'm wrong) because the third one said 3 weeks til the development diary, and they were exact when they said two weeks until the wallpaper. The first development diary says these diaries are in the run up to the release of summoning, so I'm putting my money on the 11th or possibly Monday 14th.--Andy mci 22:43, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * You're source was wrong on the 7th... 18:23, 8 January 2008 (UTC)


 * It's out on the 14th, smart guy. 70.49.204.73 21:40, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Looks like yours was wrong, too ... Chocotard 13:05, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Wait! My source says January 15! Chocotard 15:30, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol! :o) 19:20, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

So some people dont pay attentio to the fact that 7 out of 10 updates happen on Tues.--Degenret01 04:50, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Nessisary Edits
Since someone had decided to lock the article unjustly and I do not have an account (Nor do I plan to get one), I request the following edits to be made. --- Change the last sentence of the first paragraph to "According to Development Diary 3, The skill will be released approximately the second week of January" as I’m certain it did not mean literally 3 weeks after its release and my statement is open-ended and non-speculation. Change all the members-only speculation and remove the section and delete the photos and add in the sentence, "Paul Gower has confirmed that Summoning will be member's only." Change "Skill Icon" To "Mysterious Icon," and include that it is speculation that it is the skill Icon. Also delete the interface as it is not cannon. Delete the "KB Leak" sentence as the picture #1: includes the wrong skill name, and #2: does not feature the commas or XP Until next level ans is obviously a fake. Delete the penguin egg speculation in Dev Diary 2 section as it is not been confirmed by Jagex and players have searched for it and there is no SOLID evidence that it is the supposed "Penguin egg." Then re-word the entire section into a paragraph. Enter a "BTS Jan 2008" section with the information provided in the BTS, right before Wallpaper 3. Even though it would not work chronologically of release, move the pet shop underneath Dev Diary 4, as a way too keep the news and in-game separate and keep that section clean. Finally, unlock the article. One person’s action does not constitute a lock. The members are doing more harm to the article than the anonymous are. Just because someone wrote in a profane word does not mean that the article is a hot-spot for taggers. Thanks! 70.109.13.69 20:54, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
 * On the same token, someone should put that Taverly might be given to the Free players, as they did give us the duel arena. Plus, as most know, Mod Piers is the co-creator of runescape, and it is entirely possible that he let that piece of information slip, and now the other Mods are trying to cover it up. Members get a humongous world, it wouldn't hurt for them to give us 1/999 of it. We could get a few more quests and perhaps even herblore. I can assure you though, if Free players do not get summoning, I will be protesting. 72.161.204.183 23:13, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Though Piers said it will be F2P, Paul Gower said it will be P2P, which further puts the on-going argument of Summoning being either free or not free at a stalemate. Odds are though, Summoning will be P2P, or at least greatly limited by F2Pers. 23:26, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
 * "Plus, as most know, Mod Piers is the co-creator of runescape"

That is not true. Andrew and Paul Gower are the original creators of RuneScape.

In game hints that could be related to summoning

 * Eggs (in the wallpaper):
 * Red egg (from birds nests)
 * blue egg (from birds nests)
 * raven egg (from birds nests)
 * vulture eggs (drop from vultures around agility pyramid)
 * karthulhu (mentioned in dev diary, drop from zombie pirates on brainded isle)
 * incubator (can be found in Yanille when playing on low resolution)

Summoning definitely exists
Don't buy the troll's BS. Chocotard 14:29, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

glich to be put on summoning page ( please give me opinions)
I previously put the hiscore glich on the summoning page, but some one deleted it, i see no reason for deleting it, it's important and related to the topic ( the undefined skill appeared for an hour on high scores) and i have a picture for it's page with 20 names lvls 42 and 41, should we put it? tell me 23:02, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

The mysterious icon
I'm probably going to look stupid by saying this, but the icon at the bottom of the page almost looks like a rune, maybe it is the new life rune or something similar, others of you may have noticed this too.

I don't want to state the obvious but it just looks that way.

JU®n¥mAñ01 17:40, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

It's not stating the obvious - in fact, it's unlikely that it's a rune. That would imply that it's an addition to the Magic skill, which the mods have already said it's not. I think it's the skill icon, but we'll have to wait and see. Chocotard 13:07, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Trapping
Apparently, according to the Yanille Petshop Owner, when you buy Nuts, Beetle Bits or Flies from her, you can use them as bait in Box traps to catch squirrels for pets. I bought a box trap from the hunting store. I'm gonna test it right now.

the article should be deleted and redesigned
after the release of skill, the article became bale and not effective, We should delete it. and redisign a new nice article. but we should wait untill our members' writers become experts in summoning cause i am f2p.

Training the Skill

 * I am totally lost as to how to really train this skill and get some xp to raise my levels. If anyone knows where the xp comes from can we start a section on main paige of the skill for that purpose? I am not starting the section because I have no knowledge to put in it yet.--Degenret01 23:29, 15 January 2008 (UTC)


 * We won't need a whole new page for it, just put it on the summoning article. 01:35, 16 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I have added some text to the training section. The key element appears to be to get enough charms to be able to make pouches. This is roughly equivalent to the herbs (or weeds) in the herblore skill. The other element needed to make a pouch is then roughly equivalent to the secondary ingredient from herblore. The combination of spirit shards and empty pouches resemble the vials in Herblore. The main difference is that players now need to bring all the items to a summoning obelisk to get some experience (no standing in a bank anymore). Like herblore, getting charms will be the main challenge for training the skill. Like weeds, lots of monsters drop the charms some with a better drop rate than others. My experience with some monsters show that it is very hard to get decent quantities of charms. Miw

Split
If anyone is talking about a split, it should be to move the massive tables to another article. They take up a lot of space visually and make it harder to scroll through the article, which is important if any useful content is to be added to it. At the very least they need to be below the main content that explains how the skill works. Skill 05:14, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Went ahead and moved them to the bottom, but I would still prefer they be split into a separate article, as this makes the trivia and external links sections inaccessible. Skill 05:27, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The worrying part is that even more familiars will be added to the skill in a month or so. It would be nice to have a structure to deal with this abundance of items (pouches and scrolls). Given the low experience gains from using the skill, perhaps it would be better to make a separate "Summoning Usage" page. The main summoning xp elements (pouches) would stay in the main summoning page. If a pouch table gets to large, my suggestion would be to split it according to charms needed. Charm requirements are the main constraint for this skill (and decent amounts of coins of course). Miw 10:24, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

My suggestion would be to make the following pages: So on the main page there would be areas talking about making pouches, with a link to the table that contains all the pouch making info, and so on for the other abilities. The history area could be moved, the charts can be moved, and the training area (kind of the more important spot on the page) can be expanded. 16:12, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Main page:let it reflect similar information as other skill pages, so a summary of the skill, how to use the different areas of it(pouch making, using the familiars, obtaining pets, locations of obelisks, tons of information still), and training techniques/suggestions. This would also have brief summaries of the other pages, with the links to them obviously.
 * History page: which explains it's coming about, development diary info, anticipation, maybe trivia
 * Chart pages, which display the tables.
 * Great idea Redekopmark 19:52, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Big Changes to the tables
I've changed the page and moved most of the history section to Summoning History (with the exception of a short summary). I've also taken a few tables out and put them on other pages, namely: Summoning Pouches, Summoning Familiars, and Summoning Scrolls. There is still a lot of information missing from the skill guide, but I will see if I can at least add a little bit of something to make it somewhat functional for those who are interested. The skill, while there is a lot that can be going on, isn't too difficult to figure out. 23:06, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Gold and Blue charms drop less?
I removed that line becasue it is just a couple peoples experience so far., while other people have had the opposite results. As for myself and a couple others I talked to, Gold has dropped at a rate equal to all the others combined. The Blue is dropping slower but everything is to new be sure of a judgement call yet. Maybe some monsters will drop better than others. —Degenret01 (talk • contribs) forgot to sign this comment.


 * Different monsters have different drop rates for the charms. Some may drop one type more than others.

 Doomedrusher|Talk| |Contributions| |Edit Count| 01:22, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

So maybe we could include a section on best places/mosters for the different charms? Or maybe that hsould be on the charms pages instead? Thoughts?
 * In my opinion this (best drop monsters) should be pointed on the pages for each individual charm. Golduin 08:21, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Hiscores trivia
Summoning hiscores lvl 30 = 13,363. lvl 99 = 13,034,431 (For comparison Talk:Hunter, however day numbering was different, hunter day 1 was day after release, whereas summoning day 1 is same day as release.)
 * Summoning was released about 14:54 15 January 2008 (UTC). Dark Dude 98 was the first to show up on Hiscores with level 30 at or before 19:55 15 January 2008 (UTC), which is about 5 hours after release. This includes completing the quest needed before starting the skill without using any guides except maybe the Knowledge Base.
 * At the end of the day at 2359 15 January (about 9 hours after release) there were 122 players on hiscores with one at level 37.
 * Day 3 - 5,892 on hiscores with 3 lvl 58s Owlcraig, Davis 123, Turbostrider Chrislee33 09:43, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Day 4 - 11,500 on hiscores with 1 lvl 64 Turbostrider Chrislee33 08:29, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Day 5 - 17,003 with 1 lvl 70 Ancace Chrislee33 06:50, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Day 6 - 23,979 with 1 lvl 73 Ancace at exactly 1,000,000 xp  Chrislee33 08:20, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Day 7 - 29,732 with 4 lvl 74s Miner Cire, Opiate, Turbostrider, Lady Elenasg (Interestingly Ancace now #9 is keeping his xp at 1,000,000) Chrislee33 08:38, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Day 8 About 1 week - 33,750 with 1 lvl 77 Miner Cire (Hunter day 7 - 124,270 with 1 lvl 93) Chrislee33 07:36, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Day 9 - 36,774 with 2 lvl 80s Ancace (2.04M xp, that's 1M xp in 2 days!) Turbostrider Chrislee33 07:45, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Day 10 - 39.302 with 2 lvl 81s Artemis 1330, Kingduffy 1. Chrislee33 08:27, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * 2 weeks - 51,453 with 1 lvl 88 Kingduffy 1. Chrislee33 07:53, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * 3 weeks - 61,372 with 1 lvl 96 Nercychlidae at exactly 10,000,000 xp. Chrislee33 10:02, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * 1 month, 1 week - 83,845 with 2 lvl 99s. Chrislee33 06:51, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Pures
Are there summoning pures yet? If so, maybe we should add something about pures in the article. (I'm not p2p, so I really can't tell.)

Is there a reason for pures now that pvp is gone? 02:05, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
 * There's always Bounty Hunter. 05:32, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I doubt the possibility to create pure summoner, because charms are drop from high-level monsters. And the dreadfowl (the only offensive familiar) that is available for low-level summoners is not that strong.Golduin 06:39, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
 * With the addition of the thiefing option to get charms, it is theoretically possible to make a summoning pure. Miw 10:46, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Training in the Chaos Tunnels?
How the hell are you supposed to train in the Chaos Tunnels when the familiars' attacks give you 0.1 xp each time it hits? You might as well cut down regular trees to train your Woodcutting to level 99. So, unless I'm misunderstanding something, the tunnels can't be used effectively to train Summoning. You'll get, like, 10xp an hour?

Oops, I think I should have put that in the article about the Chaos Tunnels, not here. Sorry. 13:36, 18 January 2008 (UTC)


 * As I gather (not member yet), the relation of the Chaos tunnels to Summoning is that a lot of the monsters there can drop charms, and that as a multicombat area, it is a good place to deploy a combat familiar to help you, whether or not you call on its special attacks. Ace of Risk 23:54, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Other fansite Summoning guides
Other sites listed here (on talk pages) as resources:
 * to make this guide more comprehensive
 * to improve quality of our information
 * to check that nothing here has been copied outright from other sites - RuneScape:Copyrights
 * for new skills, to see when and which sites have their guides up; if this info is timely

In Alexa order:
 * http://runehq.com/RHQSkills.php
 * http://www.zybez.net/skills.php
 * http://www.tip.it/runescape/?page=skill_guides.htm
 * http://runescape.salmoneus.net/
 * http://www.rsbandb.com/ Skill Calculators only, no skill guides
 * http://www.global-rs.com/skills/
 * http://www.runecrypt.com/index.php?pid=119
 * http://runevillage.com/Rs2skills.php
 * http://runescape.gamerzrealm.net/

Guides now up:
 * http://www.zybez.net/skills.php?id=25&runescape_summoning.htm
 * http://www.tip.it/runescape/?page=summoning_guide.htm
 * http://www.rsbandb.com/ Summoning Calculator only, no skill guides Chrislee33 06:08, 19 January 2008 (UTC)


 * http://runehq.com/RHQSkillsView.php?id=00920 . Chrislee33 08:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

History
Why was everything related to the skill's history removed from the page? I don't think it's too much to ask to have a short summary on here and leave the details for the split article. Skill 05:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Never mind, didn't see that the section was moved to the bottom. I still think it should be at the top, since it seems to be the logical way to order the sections. And there's still the matter of the paragraphs on history in the lead, it's relevant to note that it was released differently from other skills and that there are more parts coming. Skill 05:05, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I will see what I should do 05:13, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

What other skill page has a bunch of history stuff at the top of its' page?Degenret01 07:48, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * None, because at the time they were released this wiki wasn't there (except maybe for hunter, which has a small section about runescape design changes when the skill was released). 07:52, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I think it's because most other skills were surprise releases, or were only mentioned in the behind the scenes articles immediately prior to their release. Summoning is pretty much the only one that differs. Skill 05:45, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Talk option for familiers
In the Runescape database, it mentions the talk option. Something like 10 lvls more than the requirement to summon them allows you to understand your familiers.Go ez1 01:51, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Summoning Pictures/Animations
We really need summoning pictures and animations (Hence the Wiki Cleanup box and the top of the page). I am working on this myself, but I need help with higher leveled pics of creatures, etc. Thank You! Invincibility 23:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

i already added gecko, crab, penguin, terrier and platypus animations so i wonder wich animation you've added as far as i can see none--j-g 00:20, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Errrr, so how does one take a picture of an animation? If the answer involves much computer speak just tell me to never mind.--Degenret01 10:11, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

How do u make animations? Invincibility 13:14, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Uncomfirmed
This sentance in the summoning guide is absolutely uncomfirmed maybe you can talk to it immediatly no-one knows YET

You can talk to a pet if you have at least 10 or more summoning levels above the required Summoning level to obtain that pet. You will never be able to talk to the dragon, monkey, or chameleon because it is impossible to get a "natural" summoning level over 99
 * Actually this was stated by Jagex in the Summoning-The Basics section of the knowledge base.Dark shark31 01:24, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

When I put that sentence in I got it from the knowledge base. Yes, I know that no one has gotten to level 99 yet and it may be false, however Jagex stated that information, so thats why I left the sentence in. Invincibility 01:40, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

British spelling?
So I understand the game is based in the U.K., but where is wikia based? Maybe that should determine whether we use color or colour. The 2nd one just plain looks wrong to most users I would bet.Anyone?


 * Wikia's policy is that if the article is about a British game, the spelling should take the British form. Chocotard 16:37, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Emote video
Well, for one, it's pretty sloppy. Also, it seems to be more of a "glory to whatshisname" instead of being focused on the emote itself. As soon as someone comes up with a clean animation of the emote we should move the vid to a sep page, just give it a link.

Why has it gotten removed? It was the only video we had of it, even though it wasn't the greatest. Invincibility 13:13, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I guess cuz it sucked. But i would rather have waited till we could replace it, just deleting stuff like that isn't all that helpful.After all, it did show the emote. Even a poor vid is better than none. Maybe there is some other reason I am unaware of.--Degenret01 08:40, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Technical Difficulties
"However for the time being the development of the second batch of creatures has encountered difficulties, and will not be released in February."

Since when did jagex say that they had a problem with the second batch of summoning monsters?--Pkthis 15:44, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It was posted on the forums about a week ago.Dark shark31 18:12, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Monkeys no talk?
'You will never be able to talk to the dragon, monkey, or chameleon because it is impossible to get a "natural" summoning level over 99.' Has this been confirmed with monkeys? I know that Karamjan monkeys aren't very clever but I'd be surprised if an amulet of monkeyspeak doesn't have any effect when they talk. 21:11, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Stat spying........
While i was stat-spying some of the monsters, to find out anything interesting, i noticed that some of them are immune to poison damage. THese monsters are: Bronze Minotaur, Bull ant, Compost mound. There may be other monsters that are immune to poison, but i have also found out some of them arent. If other people could stat spy the monsters, that would be great.

Btw, the lunar spell, monster examine, will ONLY work if their combat level is displayed. If it is not displayed, then you cannot use the spell on them.--Pkthis 23:28, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Cheapest route doesn't include tertiaries
The cheapest route for training doesn't include tertiary ingredients which, while difficult to update, make a huge difference. Example: at level 13, you can summon a thorny snail. This costs one more shard than the previous best familiar, the spirit spider, for the same xp. However, the third ingredient costs about a quarter of the price. I haven't actually calculated the total price for any given familiar to determine the cheapest, but I'd be willing if people thought this was a good change to make. copppro 18:52, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Best Routes for Summoning
Calculating the cheapest route for summoning is significantly more in depth than set out in the current Summoning page.

Shards are just one part of the calculation. The cost of making pouches needs to include the 2nd (after the early levels you will not be able to collect all 2nd's yourself, you will need to buy them). On the flip side Pouches can also be alched, traded in GE and traded to a special shop (for 70% of their value) to recover a significant portion of the original cost.

The cheapest route to 99 summoning is therefore based on the net cost per XP:

( (Shard Cost + 2nd Cost) - (Highest of GE price/shop trade price/alch price) ) / XP per pouch

I have a spreadsheet that tracks this. Using a bit of cut and paste it didn't take as long as you might think to set up.

Unfortunately that isn't the end of it. The GE price of pouches is continually changing and not all pouches will sell in GE at the currently listed prices (most are in freefall until they reach a price attractive to alchers). So in practise even after all the maths some practicalities require consideration.

Djmoody 05:24, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Re wrriten
wow i remember the first day this page was set up. the only thing thats been updated is that call to arms scroll. Update the dang page already Rabbadxs 12:21, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Minimum Charms Method
I reverted the edit on the Minimum Charms section, as the rationale for its deletion.... that you can't possibly collect 15,000 blue charms is not really a sound reason for simply removing this section.

There certainly are multiple methods of trying to get to this goal, and of course trying to get to level 99 is a long and difficult process for nearly any skill. Keep in mind this is the "minimum" number of charms at each level.

Rather than simply deleting this page, perhaps it ought to be divided between each of the types of charms (on a separate page, perhaps?) which goes into detail about what the path to minimum charms are for that type of charm. It does change as you move up through the levels, as some creatures are certainly much better for you in terms of experience than others.... although there are several kinds of factors you can weight when trying to decide what creature you want to create a pouch for.

Some hard work has gone into this table, and without a compelling reason to delete it I would rather not be losing this information because somebody thinks "it is impossible" to find so many charms. I'd argue that it is possible, and in fact somewhat easier for players with high combat stats. We're talking level 99 here, not just trying to get to level 30. Is it tedious and time consuming? Yeah. Is it something that a player is going to "power level" to get? I don't think so, but in the long run it doesn't matter. This table simply spells out what the "minimum number of charms" would be required in order to get to level 99.

Removing this table also removes information that was added with hard work to the article, and doesn't help with providing an alternate method of crafting pouches. --Robert Horning 02:46, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I believe that the new top xp pouch is the talon beast which is one of the new familiars from the summoning skill update. This should be directly applicable to the minimum charms method. 03:56, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I added the Spirit mosquito pouch into the table, but I haven't looked at the other familiars which certainly should be re-examined. That is why I'm suggesting perhaps re-vamping the table somewhat to show the best xp for each type of charm, as it seems lop-sided to suggest only training with blue charms when you are going to be having plenty of other kinds of charms as well.  --Robert Horning 05:22, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Correct me if I'm wrong but shouldn't the minimum charm method also add the experience gained from pouch to scroll conversions? Obviously that extra experience comes from charms that have already been transformed and would thus further reduce the total charms needed. 15:59, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Tertiary Notes?
Can you use noted items for the tertiary ingredient? 04:04, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * No, I'm afraid not.  5:41, 24 June 2008 (UTC)