RuneScape:Yew Grove

The Yew Grove is a page where community members can discuss larger changes to the wiki, such as policy proposals. It serves as a way for anyone to get involved without having to find the relevant discussion page. Messages should be left on this page, not on the talk page.

What this page should be used for:
 * Policy proposals or changes
 * Discussion of community processes (such as RS:AOTM)
 * Changes to significant wiki features.
 * In general, anything that the community at large would be interested in.

What this page should not be used for:
 * Promoting or beginning a project. Use RuneScape:WikiGuild
 * Discussion that is not related to the wiki but rather to the game itself. Use the forums.
 * For anything that does not have a wide impact, use RuneScape:Requests for comment.

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Updated Logos and Favourite Icon
'''Consensus has been reached upon updating just the two wiki logos. The favicon discussion will still be up for comment'''

Again I am going to put this to the Yew Grove. I am recommending that we update the logos and favourite icon. The version that most people seemed to agree upon before the discussion was archived what seemed a bit prematurely were as follows:

Discussion section

 * Update - I still think that a blue party hat would have been good. http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/runescape/images/6/6e/Blue_phat_favicon.PNG
 * Update - As I'm posting this again I'm going to vote for updating these images. 04:38, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay I'm going to have to agree with people below regarding the favicon. It wasn't intended as fan art but i can't argue with the definition (except that it was intended directly as fan art of the wiki and not directly for roonscape).  20:36, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Update - except the "favicon.ico" image. It's too small for my eyes.  I had to zoom it 400% before being able to figure out that it is a combination of fire + law runes.  I think "Astral rune" is nice, or even "Chaos rune" is much better.  I suggest that you stick to existing runes, rather than combining different runes.  My two cents...  08:32, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Update main page logo but keep fave icon - The Fave icon sucks. It looks worse than the current favicon. In fact, a fire rune fused w/a law rune is soooooooo ugly. 21:42, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Update the logos but keep the favicon, I agree with Amethyst... except for the ugly wording. Oddlyoko talk 23:42, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I reckon get the herblore and the mage symbols and put the mage hat ontop of the herby symbol and call it 'mage potion'. I think that would make a great Favicon. I would make one but i'm on the laptop. I'll make one tomorrow and show you. R0KK1 =] ((20:40 20/8))
 * Update both Favicon and Logos. 15:00, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Update The logos, but not the favicon. I don't really think the new one looks that good (no offense) and I really don't think that we should replace the favicon with fanart (especially since we delete fanart here(mixed signals anyone)) this may confuse new users. 15:13, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Update both. Am I like the only one who liked the proposed favicon? O_O 15:19, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Update - I recommend that both are updated. But might I suggest the new Omni-talisman as the Favicon? Ok, so it reminds me of an insect thingy...but it is RS icon and not fan art.--Kashibak 19:23, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment - Oddlyoko, Amethyst is Derilith. =Þ 21:19, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't care about the logo, but I would prefer it if we keep the current favicon. The Fire rune in all of my tabs on this site seems iconic somewhat. 07:02, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Update the logo. I would like to have the one favicon below this message that is the RuneScape "R". Also, will the new logo be transparent? 22:53, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Idea how about this one? [[Image:RSW_logo_idea.jpg|50px]] Btzkillerv 15:03, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * No. Btz, your logo is too large (minimum 16 x 16 pixels), and the logo is completely 'violating copyright laws, which close down RSW, and eventually close down Wikia themselves. —Derilith (talk • contribs) forgot to sign this comment.
 * Update logos. But even though I like the favicon, I agree with Azliq far above me. I canrt notice what it is. Maybe better if we stick to one rune alone (I dont mind which one). Cheers, 13:17, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Idea How about for the favorites icon, we create sort of a 'smily face rune'? it would be a basic blank pure essense image, with a smily face inside it :D. Gondor2222, 30 august 2008
 * No That is just too silly! [[Image:ExplorerRing3.png]]Btzkillerv has entered the building! [[Image:Cape_blue.png]] 17:22, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Why not just use a party hat?sirfishalot 15:27, 10 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Consensus - for just the wiki logos because of all support and no oppose. But favicon consensus still needs to be reached. 23:58, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Compressed versions

 * The original suggested logo was 18.5kb. This is 8kb.  The only noticable difference is the shortened padding and less visible shadow. The 10kb difference could mean something when hundreds of people are visiting this site each day.  13:41, 16 September 2008 (UTC)


 * There is a reason that the original versions were not compressed to maximum and that was to allow for the 8-bit alpha layer, which, as you already noticed, provided a better shadowing effect. The logos compress smaller in indexed PNG format than what is afforded from GIF format. (see Image:Suggested_new_Wiki_logo-low_shadow_quality.png|here and Image:Suggested_new_Wiki_logo-wide-low_shadow_quality.png|here) 14:21, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah ok. 23:59, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

New favicon
I created an alternative icon. 08:35, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Just an R. Simple and effective. [[Image:Example favicon R.png]]
 * Zoomed to 40 pixels. [[Image:Example favicon R.png|40px]]

Who keeps Deletin' the pic in my signature!?!?!? 09:24, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I like the 'R' the best. 09:58, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Hey everyone, just a quick note that the favicons need to be 16 by 16 pixels in size, like this one: which is one I created from the current logo. 22:37, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The RuneScape "R" is 16-by-16 pixels in size. 02:58, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I like RW the best. Here's my order (from most fave to least fave).
 * 1) [[Image:RW logo.png]]RW logo - Votes: 5
 * 2) [[Image:Example favicon R.png]]RuneScape "R"1 - Votes: 3
 * 3) [[Image:Favicon.png]]Fire rune - Votes: 0
 * 4) [[Image:Example Favicon.png]]Fire-Law Rune - Votes: 0
 * 5) [[Image:Law rune favicon.png]]Law rune - Votes: 1
 * 6) [[Image:D&D icon.png]]Distractions and Diversions - Votes: 1

1Needs to be recreated
 * I don't see the point of recreating this icon. See "Fair use" section below. 02:45, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

00:07, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't like how the logos and such are mage-oriented. Maybe a non-combat rune, like a law, would be best. 00:43, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I would vote for the RW favicon since it is directly from the logo and as such would clearly stand out. To me the current fire rune is simply too dark in contrast to related icons as seen here: At the least I'd suggest lightening it namely it's background. 09:29, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Comment -- I'm really not trying to be an ass or anything, but the "R" is copyrighted by Jagex. While that in its own doesn't really matter, using a section of the RuneScape logo as our own favicon definitely does not constitute Fair Use. It implies affiliation with Jagex, and that's not good at all. We could write a disclaimer or something saying that we aren't jagex, but it'd kind of kill the whole point of a favicon. The favicon imho should represent us as a Wiki (again IMHO). 05:56, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * See "Fair use" section below. 02:45, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * What if we changed the shape of the R a bit? I don;t know any legal stuff but I think if our R doesn't look like their special R, it's ok.--Degenret01 13:56, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yup, that's perfect. =) 04:04, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I think a law rune would work well. Kind of symbolic of RSW in a way. 05:56, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

The RW works for me.--Degenret01 06:09, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment - I think that the "RW" is goodlooking, but still, its deprived from the RuneScape "R" which is still "(c) Jagex under 'Jagex Limited' from 1999-2008". So, like Earthere, I don't really think that the RW will work, but I still support "RW".


 * For those favouring a law rune here's a cleanly rendered version [[Image:Law_rune_favicon.png]] and it's .ico version. (Has anyone else noticed that the detailed law rune image that we have appears to be an older and darker version than what is shown in the official RS GE DB?) 22:43, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I prefer the RW logo. It is the best imo - 01:56, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Another favicon: DnD icon added. 02:07, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't really like the DnD one. Per Earthere, the icon should represent us as a wiki. I vote for the RW logo. 20:39, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the RW logo. It's nice and clear. 07:19, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Fair use
Taken from Fair use article in Wikipedia.

Additional points:
 * All icons (regardless whether it is taken from the website, or the game itself) are technically copyright of Jagex. The use of "Fire rune" icon is the same as using the "R" or "RW" icons.
 * "The third factor assesses the quantity or percentage of the original copyrighted work that has been imported into the new work. In general, the less that is used in relation to the whole, ... the more likely that the sample will be considered fair use." This may sound counter-intuitive, but the less it looks like the original, the more likely it is considered to be fair use.
 * "Although normally making a 'full' replication of a copyrighted work may appear to violate copyright, ... it was found to be reasonable and necessary in light of the intended use." Since the intended use of the favicon is to promote RSWiki, and that RSWiki is a non-commercial site, I do not think that the use of images/icons violate any copyright laws and thus falls under "Fair use".
 * By using these icons, it doesn't imply that we're affliated with Jagex, and we have clearly stated THAT in the copyright notice at the footer of the Main Page: "RuneScape is copyright 1999 to 2008 Jagex Ltd. The RuneScape Wiki is in no way affiliated with Jagex."
 * A simple way to state that the Favicon is copyright image is to put within the summary page of [[Image:Favicon.ico]].
 * The Favicon can EASILY imply we are affiliated with Jagex. It looks like something Jagex would use (first letter of their most popular game), as it would "go really well" with the RuneScape official site, and most anons aren't going to notice the fair use info either.
 * I appreciate the effort, but the fair use rationale still isn't sufficient. 04:08, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Talk/user pages for vandals
I've noticed some very well meaning people who have recently been putting up warning notices on talk pages of vandals, and in particular for anonymous "ip user" vandals. I completely understand that sometimes people do make mistakes and deserve a second chance, but in this case I want to focus on users who exclusively vandalize the wiki or set up incredibly offensive user names meant to incite flamewars or simply piss off administrators.

Simply put, I believe that attempts to reason with trolls simply is feeding their behavior. Or more to the point, what is the likelihood that one of these blatant vandals even read the warning message? More often than not, they are already well versed in the basic mechanics of wiki editing... indeed a great many of them get into cute games to fight against specific administrators and are pushing for a fight. Some are previous users that have been banned from this wiki for some reason or another.

What I'm proposing is a general policy to delete (aka a "speedy delete") all user pages and talk pages of users that have made zero contributions to this wiki and are being used exclusively for the purpose of vandalism. In other words, treat these users as if they never existed in the first place. They deserve no recognition, and even the distinction of being a "banned user" is giving them too much notoriety.

Warning messages do have a place, but I believe they are much more effective if they are place on pages of what are obviously new users who have made a few mistakes and have other edits to show they have made some valid contributions somehow. I am not asking that users of this nature be denied the ability to edit their talk pages or to be punished more severely.

I can understand a few minor exceptions when a banned user page/talk page is repeatedly hit with offensive content for some reason, but I believe that to be a major exception rather than typical behavior even among trolls. This exception is that a minor note ("This is a banned user") can be posted and the page protected from all but admin edits. Use common sense here, but I don't believe that these sort of vandals are unaware of what they are doing. Unfortunately, a great many of the current set of users who have been banned (see Special:Log/block) have talk pages, and it certainly seems unlikely that they will be monitored in the future even if the user tries to respond there. --Robert Horning 16:44, 31 August 2008 (UTC)


 * That is a good idea. I don't mind us having a policy about that. Are you also suggesting deleting IP talk pages, like ones with the "No Vandal" temp or a "Test" temp? I wouldn't mind deleting those too. -- 18:05, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm going to swear in this reply, so anyone who dislikes foul language should probably just skip past the example I give here.
 * I totally support this idea. Trolls are ridiculously stubborn, let alone forgiving, and their flames usually take a while to smolder away to nothing. In fact, I have a VERY good example. of what trolling does to people, should some of you not understand their idiocy.
 * This site, which appears to have a few users from the wiki appears to be preparing for a flame war with these bastards, who actually worship Tehnoobshow. Yes. That's right. Tehnoobshow really DOES have no feelings. And why would I say this about the godlike YouTubing RuneScape moviemaker? Well, personally, I think he's waaaaay overrated, but that's not the point. From what I see, Teh is trying to just harrass people who dislike him by spamming any sites they go to. For example, Danger Pks U, one of Chia's friends (not sure if he has a wiki account) has had his YouTube spammed by Teh and his subscribers. Which of the many spammers/flamers happens to be Teh is a complete mystery, but both sites have suffered. From what I can see, Ubnub.com started this whole problem, and a few dedicated users from that site were spamming Kiotomi.com's shoutbox. Chia alerted me of the problem on IRC, so I went to check it out (even though there was practically nothing I could do). The THREE users there flamed me relentlessly, believing that I had spammed that fucking Ubnub. When I provided proof that I hadn't, they *miraculously* accepted it, but kept flaming me, thinking that I just wanted to leech off of their "diety's" YouTube popularity! After 20 minutes of attempting to trigger their brains into acting reasonably, I gave up, just as one of the fuckers was about to launch a VERY racist commnent (I saw it when I came back later and they were gone...they called me an Aisan, which 1. I'm not, and 2. is racist).
 * My main point is that if we fuel the troll's will to flame, like I was inadvertantly doing, we'll lose in the end. So, without further ado, I support this idea.
 * I mostly agree with this proposal. While I often like to give people the benefit of the doubt and offer them a chance to redeem themselves, I often go straight from rollback to CVU, then the warning. Often times, a week or so later, I find the vandal back being stupid again, with a tag with my sig on their page from the last time I reverted their vandalism. It really seems to be a waste of time sometimes, but I don't think that pages that currently have them should be deleted. I personally feel that the majority of the vandals to the encyclopedia are very young and just think they can do it and get away with it, usually not checking back to see if their vandalism has been reverted. In time, they will most likely mature, and perhaps the warning on their page will cause them to stop and think: "Damn I was stupid, what was I thinking?" I hate to stereotype, but I feel it's entirely correct. By acknowledging that they were once here, and now they are not, I feel it gives the Administrators an aura of authority, and could show people that vandalism will not be tolerated. We are all here to better the encyclopedia, and to ensure it provides accurate information for everybody who needs it, and I think those who have a different mindset deserve to be labeled as they are; vandals.
 * On the other hand, I think just one warning is sufficient, and the could probably be done away with. The no vandal template lets whoever the individual is know that what they did was wrong, and they should review the rules. Warn3 is, in my opinion, and as Stinko would say "fueling the trolls". If they didn't get the hint the first time, then tough for them. Ugh, I'm getting way off track... Their talk page needs one template. No other comments, not "DON'T DO THIS AGAIN!!!!!!1!11!11one!1" or anything else. Keep calm, and let them know they screwed up.  19:48, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I like Ubnubs and Kiotomis...=s. 00:03, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I support this policy. Simply put any sort of feedback is basically giving the vandal what they want which is, in a word, attention. That type of vandal doesn't care if the attention is positive or negative, so, I feel that giving zero feedback ala the "never existed" treatment/policy is definitely the way to go. 14:53, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

AOTM changes
These are really a few disconnected ideas regarding the current AOTM process, so I'll list them in bullet points:


 * On the RS:AOTM page, each candidate is given its own subpage for voting at the moment. While this is a relatively minor point, I'd rather have the discussion on the page itself. It really is one big discussion in a way, and the page length wouldn't be very long if this were done. Combining the discussion would also make the page easier to maintain and organize.
 * Template:Featuredarticle should incorporate the entire lead section of the featured article, or for leads longer than about two paragraphs, significant parts of it. This draws more focus to the article itself and hopefully gets more readers interested in its content. (As was mentioned on the UOTM VFD the AOTM text is generally very short compared to the UOTM text, and I agree that this should be changed.) If the article featured doesn't have a substantial lead, it shouldn't be the AOTM!
 * This is a bit off topic, but I posted above in the section about an "article of the week" regarding a focus/collaboration article that could be chosen every week and listed on the main page. I really think this could improve the overall quality of some of our "core" articles, articles that could go on to be featured. If it looks like there's some interest in this I'll try to write up a more detailed proposal.

Any thoughts? (If anyone would like to list some ideas of their own I wouldn't mind.) Skill 06:37, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Whoa, Whoa, are you saying changing "month" to "week"? If that's the case, then no.I really don't think that would help because we don't have that many articles to show (or at least good quality ones) every week. Wikipedia can do one every day just because they have so many articles. I don't think this would work out in the long run. -- 14:10, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Not really what I was suggesting, see the comment I had written in the linked section... it's more of a "collaboration of the week". I do recognize that it would be impractical to have a weekly featured article for the moment, but that's not the idea here. Instead, we link an article from the main page in an effort to improve its quality. It really doesn't need to be too formal, it could be changed by whoever thinks a particular article could be improved, given a few guidelines that we can post on a project page. The idea is to target potential featured articles that aren't ready yet, and articles that most readers would find essential to a complete RS resource. Skill 21:03, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I can haz edit helps? I love this idea better than the AotW idea (which as i had suggested above, would just rotate previous AotM but would have to repeat after a half of a year. Realising that what Skill is saying is that some of the AotM morph over time with exposure to the masses, I have to concur with the idea of having mediocre articles improved upon through a CotW as being a better idea than the variations of AotW suggested thus far.
 * However, the wily nily aspect of how the CotW would be picked concerns me slightly but only in the fact that someone someday will somehow go off about their pet article being constantly neglected, so in order to circumvent such whinings I would suggest some mostly informal voting-like page (one that isn't really a voting page) that lets anyone/everyone state whatever it is that they feel should be next up for CotW.
 * Another thought - I would recommend new RS features (e.g., DnD this week) be explicitly excluded since they will already be getting plenty of attention regardless. I'm out of thoughts now. 18:21, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * (Sorry about the late response, I've been a bit busy lately.) I'm fine with the exclusion of new features and the like. On the informal voting page, I'm thinking that we could just have a list of candidates, and if there are no complaints for a given candidate, we post it on the main page during whatever week happens to be free. Does that work to prevent any problems with the feature being used to unnecessarily direct attention to certain articles?
 * Also, does anyone have any other thoughts on this, or should I start writing up the detailed proposal? Skill 20:16, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I think that should work to mostly circumvent any foreseeable issues.
 * Just one last comment from the peanut gallery; I totally love this concept for the simple fact that it encourages casual perusers of this wiki to become an active part of it as opposed to just being passive mouse potatoes. 15:03, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Images and animations
One thing has been bothering me recently. I've noticed that images and animations of a single player are appearing all over the wiki at astronomical pace. It deja vu all over again, as this issue was debated in July. See the link below for the thread.
 * RuneScape:Yew Grove/Archive4

Some of the things that clearly bothers me:
 * Replacing perfectly good HD images - with the same animated version of the player
 * Overemphasis of the player in the image - especially since all the images have the same costume. (This is the reason of my deja vu.)
 * Animations are used where images would be perfectly fine - Used for item articles (i.e. players wearing a certain armour/costume.)
 * Creating new images, instead of uploading newer versions of the images. - This creates a lot of "orphaned images".
 * Using a lot of animations clearly slows down the load time. This is because animations are generally larger in terms of size, compared to its still images.  Quest articles are bogged down when there is a lot of animations.

This is what I think should be the case:
 * Replacing old images (i.e. pre-HD) with HD images (not animations).
 * Uploading the image into the same filename (i.e upload a newer version of the image), instead of creating a new one and changing the link within the article.
 * Use of animations only where it is required. (i.e. where action is involved, not when the player is displaying the Worn Equipment, Equipment stats, etc.)
 * For example, animations may be permitted for:
 * Fight sequences.
 * For use in templates.
 * Sequence of actions that explains something, and is important (i.e. casting a Magic spell, a Spinner exploding.)
 * Bad examples:
 * Non-player characters (i.e. Ticket vendor bouncing, Ringmaster bowing, etc.)
 * A player just standing at a location (i.e. in quest-related locations).
 * A player doing nothing important (i.e. juggling).
 * A player "rotating" in the Worn Equipment interface.

I'm assuming good faith here, but if this trend that I'm seeing is not stopped, I won't be amazed if all images within this wiki is replaced with animations of this person. I have nothing against this person, but I like variety and seeing this person in the same costume all over this wiki is definitely not variation, it is repetition. There are positive contributions, but clearly the negative outweighs the positive. 07:36, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * This depends on which person you are talking about. If it the one in the Fire Cape, then we're replacing her. All of those images are pre-HD. If you're talking about one in the Bomber Gear, he's doing all the replacing. While I agree with your point I think you're being a little harsh. I'm all for banning the "rotating" images, and you don't need a .gif for a location spot (unless it's skill-related or a minigame). But NPCs should have animations, so long as they are doing something besides standing around. 22:26, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The one in the bowman hat is Tarikochi and the one in the bomber outfit is TEbuddy. I like what you're saying that we don't need certain gifs. like a monster just standing in a treasure room, but I don't think there needs to be a wide diversity in the characters in a gif. I think whoever wants to upload a gif. they can, and I don't care if it is the same 4 guys doing all the gifs. There is nothing wrong with repetition. -- 04:00, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Many of our contributors only have dial up internet, and/or older computers. If the pic does not require animation we need to leave it out. Being thoughtful of others is not a crime. And variety adds more color and life to the wiki. Since we could never get a consensus on this, just go ahead and change any pic you don't like. What the hell, its what hes doing anyhow.--Degenret01 05:53, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * People getting all up in arms about stupid stuff like this is what made me contribute less to this wiki. A gif image gives more detail than a still image ever can, and the nature of Runescape's graphics allow them to be easily made. Not only that, but whats with all the hate? If you even cared to glance at my user page, you will see a list of every image I have uploaded or replaced. Very few of these images are bad quality, or pointless. I find it pretty disturbing that I am being personally insulted because of a certain users opinion. Dialup users do not make up a majority of this wiki's internet traffic. Making pages more friendly to them is something we should do just as a courtesy, it should not be our priority. Even some of the more complex gifs usually don't use more than 500kb of storage space. On a residential dsl connection which the majority of internet users have, an image of that size would load instantly. There are an excess amount of gif animations, and I agree that having pointless ones like a monster standing in a treasure room are a waste of time and storage space. I'm not a mindless gif replacing zombie whose goal is to spread the revolutionary bomber uniform to everyones monitors. Capturing these images can be very difficult and time consuming, its not something as simple as taking a normal screenshot, and because of that I don't waste my time.

My biggest problem with this is that users are complaining about a useful resource that they themselves are not willing to replace, yet they feel it necessary to place limitations and guidelines on it that drive away new users interested in it, and make it harder for the people who already make the images to get them placed on the wiki. TEbuddy 05:10, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps a good example of somewhere to replace some of Tarikochi's images would be on the Skill cape emote page. They are all in low detail mode and none of them even show the hood. I suggest recreating all the skillcape emote to a certain width specification (perhaps keeping the 200px width as they are now) in HD with anti alising and wearing relevant clothing. For example, the fishing emote would look good wearing blue or perhaps wearing pirate clothing. The woodcutting would look good with the user wearing lumberjack clothing (see below for an example I made).
 * http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/420/woodcutskillcape2er8.gif
 * By having unique looks for each skillcape it would give the page a bit more of a fresh look rather than looking so repetetive. I have the following level 99's, str, att, fish, cook, fletch, woodcutting. If noone objects i might start updating the skillcape animations of the ones I have this week. -- 14:15, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Take a look at the Skillcape (emote) page now I added a few as an example. Will make a fletching and strength animation if people approve. Otherwise revert back to the old animations. -- 18:00, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Nice, I like it. I support the idea of having unique looks for images.  The look must suit the subject of the image (i.e. relevant clothing).  However, the animations are quite slow to load.. is that the smallest size you can manage with animations?  I'm not familiar with animations, educate me.  18:13, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The animations I did are smaller in file size than the old ones. The other ones were fast to load because they were cached probably. When you go to the page now they will load nice and fast. -- 18:24, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I haven't read this whole thing, so go ahead and kill me if I bring up something someone already brought up, but it seems to me that one of the things you're suggesting is that users should only upload images and animations in HD? 20:20, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Its got nothing to do with the quality or size of the animations, just the sheer number of them. It will happen the same with too many images on one page. We do need new animations, but perhaps with that change we should do as other gaming wikis have done and use a text link to link to the animation, or a single still frame that links to the full animation. I'm on a residential dsl connection and it takes upwards of 20 seconds to load every animation fully on the page. [[Image:Gnomegoggleswithcap.png|25px]]TEbuddy 21:43, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Ilyas, no. I never stated users should ONLY upload images and animations in HD. I stated that animations be used only where it is required. (Every single image doesn't have to be an animation.) Another thing I mentioned is: HD images should NOT be replaced with another HD image, or with an animation, unnecessarily. Basically, that's the summary of this discussion. 06:02, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I think I agree with you about the rotating inventory image. I uploaded the one for the Lumberjack clothing because it replaced one that was already there but there isnt really a need for it to be animated and would probably be better as a static image as more colour detail is preserved. Perhaps in the future we should refrain from creating these kinds of images where a user is just holding one item.


 * I do feel though that all NEW images should be created in HD to reflect RuneScape as Jagex like to show to others. If possible the images should be taken with anti-aliasing ON.


 * As for the skillcape emote page, that will always be slow to load initially but such is the nature of the page, it's meant to showcase all the animations for the emotes. People should expect to wait a little longer for the page to load. I agree with Tebubdy about dialup users being in the minority, all the research suggests that dialup users make up a very small proportion of users on the internet these days. Quest guides however should be relatively free of animations unless neccesary so preserve fast loading times for all users.


 * HD animations should only be replaced by other HD animations if the new image is more optimised or has anti aliasing etc. People should not be replacing HD images just so they can show their own character in the image. I think this is common sense, but it is happening and should be clarified.


 * Where possible the animations should show the character in relevant attire and not have the same look in all animation. I have tried to create a nice unique look in each of the skillcape animations I have made to steer away from the samey look that Taro did that can easily get boring.-- 09:02, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * To elaborate something i just thought of. Perhaps an animated image might look good for a full set of something such as Lumberjack clothing or Granite equipment or Bandos armour (bad example as there should not be two seperate images with/without boots) but static images should be kept for individual items like is shown on Granite body. Places innapropriate for animated images probably are Bandos boots and Magic secateurs which shows off the persons character more than the item itself. Perhaps single item images should be kept static and only full sets or outfits should be animated? -- 12:13, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * A little dissapointed at the lack of response from people... -- 07:48, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol, you're right. I'm kinda new in this wiki, so I hope I'm not offending anyone, but I've noticed that people here do not seem interested in these type of things.  As quoted by Degenret (see above), "just go ahead and change any pic you don't like."  16:01, 19 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I have to confess that I get tired of seeing the same character repeatedly throughout the wiki. Variety, as they say, is the spice of life. Additionally I have to agree that way too many images are needless animations that add virtually nothing to the image at hand. Anyone who has ever played has seen a character just standing there.
 * Would a change of costume be too much to ask? Really now?
 * These images are an utterly worthless waste of bandwidth in my opinion and I'm referring more to mine and other wiki visitors and not just of Wikia. 17:05, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * "I do feel though that all NEW images should be created in HD to reflect RuneScape as Jagex like to show to others. If possible the images should be taken with anti-aliasing ON." - Only the very newest computers can run HD, and RuneScape is aimed at people with low end computers, so it would be wrong to make it so new images may only be uploaded in HD. 17:50, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with HD, however, have you tried putting transparency on an anti-aliased image? If you're proposing that we forgo transparency, then by all means, yes antialiasing should be part of the image, additionally it could look good with animated images (if the image format supported more than 255 colours at least in concerns to those many coloured images).
 * Note however that your proposal to cease using transparency should be put into a new topic. 08:05, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd forgotten about transparency tbh. Perhaps anti aliasing only for animations and images which do not require transparency. I disagree with needing a top computer to have AA tho because mine is over a year old and isn't that great and runs anti aliasing with no problems at all. -- 16:28, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
 * A year old computer is a very new computer, and I said that you need a top computer to play HD, not to use AA. 19:18, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I would still disagree. An optimised computer will run HD even if its many years old. My work laptop which is at least 4 years old plays hd (without aa) no problems. -- 22:18, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
 * My point is RS is aimed at people with low end computers (and btw, I have a four year old computer and it can't run HD, so it has nothing to do with how old the computer is, it's just that only very new computers, with a few exceptions, can handle HD) and it would be wrong to just cut out the image uploading rights of probably one third or even one half of the wiki. 22:46, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It would? If one user can upload images that are of higher quality than another, then we obviously use the higher quality image. There is no need to maintain support for new non-HD images when we have many users who could take HD ones. That said, we don't need to enforce a "delete on sight" policy for new low-detail images, either—it's better to have a low-detail image than none at all. Skill 23:21, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Going back to the original topic, I do think animations have been somewhat overused as of late. There are some cases in which the extra bandwidth and loading time required for an animation is excessive compared to the additional information conveyed by it, and these animations should probably be replaced by still images. However, in just as many instances the animation shows the user a significantly greater perspective than a still image would, and these animations should be embraced. For this reason, it is generally a bad idea to place sweeping restrictions on animation content.

In the past, it has been suggested by some users that the lack of variety in animation characters is actually a positive rather than something to be avoided. This is almost certainly incorrect in my view. If the animations happen to depict a small number of distinct characters by coincidence and they are the highest quality available, there is no need to make arbitrary restrictions in the name of variety. On the other hand, the idea that we should deliberately attempt to make all animations similar for reasons of "consistency" is flawed. I would much rather see variety in the characters shown than the same character over and over, and it's likely that many other users share this aspect of my opinion. My two cents. Skill 23:21, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
 * A non-HD image is surely better than no image at all but people should not worry about overwriting someone elses image and getting shouted at if they are replacing with a higher quality picture. -- 08:38, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't kill me if I say something stupid here, as I didn't really read everything above.
 * I am one of the users that appreciates Tarikochi's and TEbuddy's animations. But I am also a user who at least wishes they would mix it up a little on their outfit. Seeing Tari’s “leaf” (I KNOW it’s a bowman hat, ‘kay?) and her fire cape is getting extremely old…and fast. When Total was here under the name of Daedryon, he suggested a VERY ridiculous outfit for everyone to wear-3rd age melee armor. Not only is this re-presenting the problem at hand by forcing EVERYONE to get it, but it’s also crazy expensive armor; only the richest players would be able to buy the full set, with the dumbest actually using it in their animations, mainly because there’s really nothing specific (animation-wise) to 3rd age.
 * I saw a suggestion that claimed we should try to wear colors and outfits that “match” the animation, and if you HAVE the means to make it better, go for it. Red/orange/yellow clothing would work for the Firemaking capes emote, for example, and if you happen to have an Inferno Adze, then by all means if you think it’ll make the animation look better, try it. I don’t know what else to say, now…
 * Noone is thanking poor old Mercifull for making the new HD skillcape emotes :( lol -- 21:14, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Adressing the issue of non-HD images, I created a template and a :Category:Low detail images|category that I believe well help speed the replacement of older images (just as the transparency and JPEG templates and categories have.)  00:36, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * for a perfect example of useless replacement of images with animations- seethe Glitch page, under the "Invisibility Glitch" section, you will see that hapi removed a whole gallery of perfectly good images and replaced them with a single animation featuring (you guessed it) himself!!!  This really ticks me off- there was absolutely no reason for this to be done, the images were in high detail, taken from good angles, and frankly, they showed the glitch better than the animation does.  Even the Image/media policy says that "images should not be used in articles", but here it is, hapi replacing images for no reason other than to plaster his character's face on every page of the wiki!!!  whew...  20:53, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Does this make it *cough* illegal *cough* to upload low detail images? If it does you can expect me to break the wiki rules for the first time =P. 21:00, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I just think people think that high detail looks better, i see no reason to "outlaw" standard detail, but i think that people should not be replacing perfectly good images with overkill animation for no reason at all like hapi has repeatedly done! 21:09, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I never said anything about replacing images with animations, I'm just addressing the extreme hatred towards standard detail images. 21:14, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * To me, i feel that their one in the same. people don't replace the standard detail images because they look bad, they replace them so that they have a shot at getting their characters picture on the wiki, and that's a problem, we need a way to remove that motivation so that if a picture aint broke, then there will be no need to fix it.  21:18, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * That's true, but it's a good thing to replace standard with high, just not an image with an animations when not needed. That motivation is a good thing but it's driving people to the point where they put the same character with the same outfit in half of the wiki's images, even when doing something completely unrelated to the subject. 21:23, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Couldn't have said it better myself! 21:26, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Ahem... Don't tar us all with the same brush please. With the exception of my pink hair not a single image or animation that I have uploaded showed off my own character in costume. Also I dont think there is a hatred of standard detail images but they should be replaced by high detail images where possible. -- 13:48, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I think they meant Hapi, but I might be wrong. 13:53, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * your right az, we here talking about hapi, and I don't really mind that he looks the same in every picture, its when he removes perfectly good pictures and replaces them with his animations that I have a problem. 00:08, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I will probably make a few more skillcape animations this week. I will try to make my character a little bigger too like the farming and skillcape animations and re-do the other ones I made -- 07:49, 6 October 2008 (UTC)


 * About animations displaying a player "rotating" in the Worn Equipment interface, my personal opinion is like Mercifull stated before, it is fine for a whole set of armor, but not for a single piece of equipment. And I think the rotating picture should only be displayed on the set page. Also, I don't think replacing a rotating animation with a static picture of bad gif quality (see Shadow_sword) is the solution to improve the wiki. A good way to reduce Equipment interface animation file size I think would be to speed up the animations up to 4x, and then adding delay between images (see Ringmaster_costume, the 78 KB file in history is 8x normal speed and a bit too fast). -- 05:52, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Fixed the speed, file size increased.. 07:24, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Non-interactive scenery
Based on the Granularity policy, non-interactive things do not deserve articles. However, I was wondering if some of them are bunched into a single article: Non-interactive scenery.

Personally, I like to Examine things in RuneScape, and read the texts. The examine texts are there to be read, and I'm sure it will be an interesting and amusing read. The examine texts can be listed under an article, or divided into several sections (similar to the Trivia article), depending on the amount of information we have.

However, I'm not sure how to proceed with this idea, as this is not a small task. 08:40, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * There really are huge amounts of non-interactive scenery, but if you wanted to undertake such a massive project, you should start by sorting by location. troacctid 22:29, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * You will find that many individual pieces of non-interactive scenery have the same name, despite being in very different locations. I think many users would find it difficult to maintain enthusiasm for a list documenting every little thing, and it would be an awful lot of work for a few people to take on.  Despite the granularity policy, I think there are some items of interactive scenery that are not worth documenting (for example, "Crevice" - you can only enter it or examine it), and listing the examine text for non-interactive scenery would be very trivia-y.  If it's particularly notable you might add it to Trivia or Cultural references.  Of course, I would not object if you wanted to start the list, but it would be a big task to undertake.   01:20, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Alrighty then. I was thinking of bunching these items based on type: Flora (for anything green), Fauna (for animals), etc.  But since it is such a "big task" and a "massive project", I won't bother with it because I won't be able to do it by myself.  I just don't have the time.  Just thought it would be a nice idea... This "project" needs contributions from many people, and is not just "for a few people to take on."  15:24, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


 * As a thought along this line, it may be nice to put details of non-interactive scenery into articles about the areas where they are located.... aka cities, dungeons, guilds, etc. I'm suggesting this for two reasons:  both because some of these pieces of scenery do need to be documented (Jagex does occasionally turn these into interactive scenery or a part of a quest), and to provide a starting place that have existing articles.  As far as this being a huge addition to this wiki.... take it in small steps.  Almost any endeavor worth doing is a huge task, but it all starts with small steps.  This certainly is no different.  --Robert Horning 10:43, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I like Robert's idea of putting it in the location articles. And he is also right about doing it in steps. The GEMW is huge. It started with about 2 people and now look. :O I wouldn't oppose but I wouldn't really support either but you can do it if you are willing. Place it in the projects/tasks section on the community portal. 12:58, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism template image changes
TBH, I don't really like the current warning template images (See warn 3's image and block's image}, they look too plain. I propose to replace these images with ones which I have edited, which I will release to the public domain per approval of my proposal. Here are the proposed replacement images...

What do you think? 09:39, 26 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Umm, aren't the icons a tad too big? The icons themselves are nice, especially the ones in the middle.   10:15, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I do plan on reducing the icon's sizes when they are applied to the templates to about 30px. 10:21, 26 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I like Block proposed-1 and warn proposed-2, they both look much better then the current images. 21:21, 27 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I like the current warn, but the first block seems better. 21:39, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I like block proposed-2 and warn proposed-2. They do look a lot better. 23:47, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I like the proposed #1 and #2 also. Way better than the current icons. -- 00:11, 30 September 2008 (UTC)


 * i like number 2s, because the shinyness really makes them look cool, better than the dull old ones, but i prefer to keep the shield as it's more digital and looks cooler [[Image:ExplorerRing3.png]]Btzkillerv has entered the building! [[Image:Cape_blue.png]] 17:12, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * In keeping with people's love for the shield icons, I've made a new block proposal (which I don't personally like that much but mehh...). Please remember that it's only a draft one, which I made in like... 5 minutes, I would make a better version but I can't be bothered ATM. What do you think? 06:45, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok I just added the final version (because I have nothing better to do right now). 06:53, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * i like that, nice! [[Image:ExplorerRing3.png]]Btzkillerv has entered the building! [[Image:Cape_blue.png]] 10:00, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * .svg? 76.252.66.55 20:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, I've added the votes count, but now I need somebody who knows how to convert .png files to an .svg. Anybody up for it? 10:22, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Cflm001 - You can use Inkscape to do what you are looking for. Import as .png and export as .svg. I'm sure you can find a tutorial online. 16:07, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I like the second ones. They look pwn. Kevin-020 23:34, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, since we have reached a majority for the "Warn" image, but we have a 3-way tie from the "Block" images, please vote because I want to close this discussion on Saturday. Thanks, 15:48, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I just want to re-iterate my vote for #1- it looks so much cleaner and more professional, the white streaks take away from the other one and the current to me just looks out of place with the other image. -- 19:52, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, since it is Saturday (where I live), I'm going to close the votes, and I forgot to actually make a vote for myself, so the results are... warn image 2 and block 1 are the winners! So I'll go upload them. 04:56, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I like the 3rd warn image and the second block image. 07:26, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Should we make a item type subcategory?
i was thinking, it would be easier to find items if they are more categorised, for example, items like swords and schimmys can be put into the blades subcategory, while spears, staffs and hastas can be put into the polearms subcategory, the same can be done for armour and shields.. you name it, but it will certainly be easier. to find them through that way Btzkillerv has entered the building! 17:09, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm, I think we can add sub-categories for "Melee weapons", but not for "Armour". Currently we have these categories for armour:
 * Category:Armour
 * Category:Armour types
 * Category:Shields
 * Category:Kiteshields
 * Category:Helmets
 * etc.

And for armour weapons:
 * Category:Melee weapons

The list of possible sub-categories for Melee weapons are as follows:
 * L1: Category:Unique weapons - for all unique weapons (such as TzHaar weapons, quest-obtained weapons, etc.)
 * L1: Category:Two-handed weapons - all 2h weapons
 * L1: Category:One-handed weapons - all 1h weapons
 * L2: Category:Smash weapons - Maces, Warhammers, Mauls
 * L2: Category:Slash weapons - Blades, Battleaxes
 * L3: Category:Polearms - Halberds, Spears, Hastas
 * L3: Category:Blades - Daggers, Swords, Longswords, 2h swords, Scimitars
 * L3: Category:Battleaxes - Battleaxes, Axes, Pickaxes
 * L3: Category:Mauls - Granite maul, Barrelchest anchor, Gadderhammer, etc.

That should cover most (if not all) of the melee weapons. 07:30, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * i don think maces and warhammers belong to the polearms, i think they belong to the warhammer subcategory. also, daggers should be put into the larger category blades along with the category of swords. I would prefer to put the maul category as a smaller one inside the category of smash weapons. along with the warhammers and maces. then the blades can be put into the larger category of slasher weapons. along with the battleaxes subcategory. [[Image:ExplorerRing3.png]]Btzkillerv has entered the building! [[Image:Cape_blue.png]] 10:06, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * NOTE: Updated the list above based on the comments by Btzkillerv. 07:28, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Wouldn't it be better to sub-categorise armour by combat style, i.e. melee, ranged or magic? Then divide each into body, legs, headwear, shield, etc.   13:22, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes. Hmm... but we have some categories for armour already. We should "revise" them: make some changes to the hierarchy of the armour subcategories.  The list above is partial (based on what I found in 5 minutes).  A full list of available armour categories should be compiled, if possible, before making the appropriate changes.  07:28, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Just doing a revision of some wording:


 * L1: Category:Unique weapons - for all unique weapons (such as TzHaar weapons, quest-obtained weapons, etc.):::
 * L1: Category:Two-handed weapons - all 2h weapons
 * L1: Category:One-handed weapons - all 1h weapons
 * L2: Category:Bludgeoning weapons - Maces, Warhammers, Mauls
 * L2: Category:Slash weapons - Blades, Battleaxes
 * L3: Category:Polearms - Halberds, Spears, Hastas
 * L3: Category:Edged weapons - Daggers, Swords, Longswords, 2h swords, Scimitars


 * L3: Category:Hacking weapons - Battleaxes, Axes, Pickaxes
 * L3: Category:Mauls and Hammers - Granite maul, Barrelchest anchor, Gadderhammer, etc.

Changed 'em for clarity. Would you call a warhammer a "smash" or a "bludgeon" if you were asked how to describe it with one noun? My guess is that you wouldn't say that it can be described as a "smash" (though they certainly are smashing XD).


 * yeah but if u think about it axes and battleaxes and used for cutting as well, edged would have to inbuled the axe group if you think about it, and pickaxe does not have any cutting capable surfaces. blades and edged weapons is a problem because they are both formal names for cutting capable objects, and also, what about knives and jaxelins and they are a kind of cross between the group of plolearms and blades, with ranged throwing weapons. [[Image:ExplorerRing3.png]]Btzkillerv has entered the building! [[Image:Cape_blue.png]] 14:44, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

.OGG readers, and what to do with Adventurers' Tales
As a wiki, we stride strive to become a good one. We already are, but there is one thing that we could defely use. As used by Wikipedia, having the ability to play .OGGs while a reader is reading an article could make the experience on this site better.


 * Having trouble pronouncing something? An .OGG could be played to show the reader how to say it. (I would be willing to do this.)
 * If anyone was willing to do such a thing, we could have narrations of articles.
 * Plus some other stuff, which escapes my ming mind at the moment.

Someone in #Wikia a while back said that to get an .OGG player, all one would have to do is request a staff member to install it, and it should be pretty much as simple as that.

But on another note, do we need RuneScape:Adventurers' Tales anyone anymore? RSFF covers that now. If we deleted it (or whatever a verdict may turn out to be), it wouldn't really do any damage, as the actual content is in the respective users' userpages.

So yeah, discuss and stuff. 05:50, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I should stop trying to type stuff when I'm so tired. :")... 19:18, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

OGG
Support - I like the idea of having .ogg's for articles (definition). And you don't need to worry Chia, I wont let your ideas escape your "ming" (lulz). =) 06:04, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Support per myself. 19:18, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Support I'd be willing to do it with my *cough* webcam sound recorder. However, this will take up lots of space (just like animations). 19:25, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol I can also use my dad's headphones. 19:41, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Adventurers' Tales
Neutral - Adventurers' Tales are fan-fiction, and I feel that they should belong in RSFF. I would like to suggest that a note is given to the authors to move their content to RSFF, and we put a note on the page to say "We have moved to RuneScape Fan Fiction, please list your stories in RSFF." 12:01, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Keep Adventurers' Tales. The RSW and the RSFF Wiki are separate. There is no need for us to remove it. 12:28, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * We may indeed be seperate, but both are run by the same community. 19:18, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Support discontinuation - Per myself. Not really deleting it, but maybe removing most of the content and replacing it with 'yadda yadda, this has been discontinued and stuff, please use the RuneScape Fan Fiction Wiki instead'. 19:18, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Support per Chia. And it's "strive", not "stride".

The Yew Grove - Ground rules & censorship on the Wiki Guide to the Yew Grove
OK, from the recent spate of bitching going on in the Yew Grove about other editors questioning the value of contributions, accusations of sockpuppeting, and polls about blocks, I think we need to lay down some ground rules. These will (if approved) be located at the top of this page under the "What this page should/should not..." section. So here goes...


 * Do not use language which others may find offensive - swearing, blonde jokes, racial slurs etc.
 * Follow all behavioural guidelines, especially RS:AEAE, RS:DDD and RS:UTP.
 * Resolve disputes peacefully. That means no cheap shots and no come-backs.
 * Do not use this page to discuss other editor's blocks or bans, accuse others of breaking guidelines or criticising their editing styles. Use their talk page instead.

the list is obviously not complete, feel free to add to it. Thanks, 15:50, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * This can be summed up as be respectful and considerate of others. Keep the same mature, professional attitude you would have at work (or school for those of you who don't work.) This is a community of responsible, knowledgeable people who share the same interest of providing accurate information to those who desire it. While people may have disputes, it does not belong on this page. This page is for discussion of community events, something that affects nearly everyone in the community. However witty and cool somebody may feel by talking back on the internet, it's really not as impressive as the originator may think it is. If it doesn't help better the encyclopedia, don't put it on this page. I understand that there are many younger users on this wiki who might not share the same sense of respect and equality as others, but now is the perfect time to start learning. Being a "badass" in the real world won't get you anywhere, and it won't get you anywhere here either. It takes a lot less effort, time, and energy to just be helpful and do the right thing. If you have a personal issue with somebody, use the wiki's e-mail, keep it off the talk pages. This will keep others from flaming and start even more problems. But please, respect other people, it will help everybody in the end. 16:03, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * "This will keep others from flaming and start even more problems." - Did you mean "This will keep others from flaming and starting even more problems." or "This will keep others from flaming and stop even more problems."?
 * Heh, thanks stinko. It will keep others from flaming and starting even more problems. Meaning if it is kept personal between two people, nobody else will be tempted to add their two cents. 16:11, 6 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Why do people that have been sysopped get to swear? They act like they have every right in the world to and they own the Wiki. It really bothers me. Just because you have a position of authority in the Wiki community doesn't mean you should get to say offensive things like cuss. [[Image:Prayer.gif]]Jediadam4 [[Image:Abyssal Whip.gif]] 18:39, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm a little confused on this previous statement. The only two sysops who have commented on this are myself and stinko, and I found all of our comments to be clean. I will look again though. 18:46, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Im not sure I entirely understand your concern Jedi. If the policies are the same as the of the beginning of my hiatus then swearing can be used on the wiki provided it's not being used to direct an attack on another user. Generally most people don't swear every second line as it dosen't look very proffesional. But certainly provided you are keeping your comments neutral and constructive I really don't have a problem with "cuss". --Whiplash 18:51, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see: Do not use language which others may find offensive - swearing. All I have to say to that is that this is NOT kindergarten. We had a debate on this awhile back and I rembember that the consencus of it was that swearing is allowed on the wiki provided it's not being directed at a user. As far as Im concerned the swearing thing should be removed. --Whiplash 18:59, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * And to think this was supposed to solve problems... Anyway, I think RS:AGF should be added to the list. All too often people jump to the conclusion that someone is up to no good. 19:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * As a policy or two may inhibit discussion, RS:IAR in particular should be added.
 * Adding on to the rules on "wittiness", what we need to avoid is active moderating. One-line comments like "Xpkerpure, please use proper grammar" and "lolonoob, remember that RS:AEAE" aren't helping anyone and can turn the Yew Grove into a uncomfortable or even hostile environment.  20:07, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to have to side with Whiplash on this. Swearing is part of daily life, and 99% of the time it is not directed at anybody. This is generally accepted as okay, as it is not intended to offend or upset anybody. If somebody takes offense to every "swear" or "curse/cuss word" thrown around, they're in for a lifetime of disappointment. Certain words carry with them a highly offensive meaning, and should not be used, imo, but for the most part, provided it isn't aimed at anybody, it is fine. 20:11, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * In response to the unregistered users comment above. Most behavioural policies on the wiki are not seriously enforced, perhaps with the exception of the user treatment policy. --Whiplash 20:16, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I really think we should keep the "no swearing" rule ONLY on the YG, because I can guarantee that nobody will have legitimate cause to "cuss" about a subject of discussion posted here. (If you wish to debate this, please provide an example where swearing would be acceptable in a communal discussion). 07:26, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * If you ask me, swearing should be prohibited/limited to talk pages and userpages only. I know of young kids who frequent this Wiki looking for information on RS and whatnot.  Although "99% of swearing" is not directed at anybody, this gives the impression that swearing is cool and okay.  We do not want to instill this perception that swearing is acceptable, especially among younger kids.  I don't think swearing is offensive, but I flinch every time I see a swear word in this wiki, knowing that some kid might see it and start using it at school the next day.  Imagine when the teacher asks "Where did you learn that word?" and the kid replies: "The RuneScape Wiki - the wiki for all things RuneScape."  LOL.  07:39, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You do have a point az, but at some time people need to come to the realization that we're not living a sheltered life, and the real world exists. I agree that swearing should not be allowed in articles, but on discussion pages such as this one, talk pages and such, certain non-offensive words that are considered "swear words" are acceptable, imo. If the concern is about young children seeing "bad words" and using them the next day, then the Player Dictionary article needs to be deleted. In all honesty, television is far more vulgar than pretty much anything kids will see here. 16:01, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the edit conflict Karlis =P, here was my original message... Azliq: I completely agree with you. How about limiting swearing to user talk pages and the player dictionary, because according to RS:DEU, we're not allowed to have swearing on user pages. Since this discussion is tipping over to a debate about the censorship on the RuneScape Wiki, I've changed the title to observe the views of others concerning the oppression of vulgar language amongst the younger people who may visit our Wiki. Karlis: the player dictionary has a language warning at the top of the page. Now regarding your comparison between the Wiki and TV. Television censorship (where I live) is much harsher than the Wiki's, there are content warnings, ratings and restricted time periods when shows and movies can be shown. Although I do not want our Wiki to end up like this, I do propose some protection. Moving on... "...certain non-offensive words that are considered "swear words" are acceptable..." I think that no swear word is acceptable, but some are tolerated more than others. The word "crap" would be more socially acceptable than "f***", right? 16:28, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Gonna reset this back to the left. I understand the difference in censorship based on countries, but I find some things trivial to censor. And yeah, I know about the language warning on the top of the page, but if a child is going to "learn curse words" from the wiki, a warning is not going to stop them. Now back to my opinions of trivial censorship. Words such as "damn", "hell" and "crap" are generally accepted by younger kids as borderline "bad words" yet are acceptable pretty much everywhere. I agree that certain four letter words are too far, but we need to have a more realistic stand. OK, from the recent spate of bitching going on in the Yew Grove... ..work has been a pain in the ass this week...  ...I have had a lot of shit going on this week... These all have "curse" words in them, by traditional standards, yet are not offensive. I want to know why something like this should be censored, when all that these words are doing are simply adding emotion to the sentence. Not that I am arguing that I display anything like this on my page, nor would I put it on anybody elses page, but I don't believe people should be shunned for it, or it should be looked down upon because the user is a little bit more mature than others. 16:58, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Seconded. 01:50, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, so I agree with you on the point that some words should be acceptable. Now going back to what you said, I really don't see that adding emotion to one's opinions stated here in the Yew Grove is a necessity. I proposed these guidelines because I have observed experienced editors drop the "s" bomb in discussions and use it excessively. THAT sort of language is what I want to control in the YG. And BTW, "bitching" is a verb. 08:38, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Sure "some" words may be acceptable, but which ones should be accepted? How do we decide which ones are acceptable, and which ones are not? I feel that since this Wiki is about RuneScape, I propose that we follow the censorship based on the RuneScape game itself, i.e. the Chat filter. Jagex had introduced the Chat filter to filter out profanities and swear words from the game because they knew who the game was catered to: for people of all ages; played by people from different origins (countries) and ethnicities. Being a Wiki dedicated to RuneScape, our audience/visitors will be the same people playing RuneScape. I wouldn't mind if swearing is allowed in a Wiki dedicated to "GTA: San Andreas" where the game itself is rated Mature (17+), but on RSWiki...? What I would like to see among editors (especially admins) is self-censorship: in Project pages (like this one), article talkpages, "edit summaries", etc. See this page: So What's Wrong with Cussing?  12:32, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I keep a sense of professionalism on the wiki, so I do whatever I can to keep my language clean and civil. What people type on talk pages and user pages is their own thing. Let me try to summarize... On pages with community discussions or where the general public of the wiki is going to view, I agree that language should be kept clean. On userpages, actually maybe just user pages and subpages, we should be a little bit more lax. I disagree with people posting profanity on others' talk pages, so I guess just your own userpage, really. I stick with my initial post in this discussion, I feel it sums up well how I feel. Where that was more directed at overall attitude, it could apply to language as well. Be respectful and mindful of others. 12:41, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, this discussion has turned into whether or not profanity is okay, and it has been drawn away from guidelines and overall "appropriate attitude" when discussing on the yew grove. Lets recap for those who don't feel like scrolling up, and highlight other areas that need to be discussed...

*Do not use language which others may find offensive - swearing, blonde jokes, racial slurs etc.
 * Follow all behavioural guidelines, especially RS:AEAE, RS:DDD and RS:UTP.
 * Resolve disputes peacefully. That means no cheap shots and no come-backs.
 * Do not use this page to discuss other editor's blocks or bans, accuse others of breaking guidelines or criticising their editing styles. Use their talk page instead.
 * I will finish this when I get to work, time to go! 12:46, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, let me just provide some background information about the proposed additions. ...blonde jokes, racial slurs etc. This is based on the guidelines which many users of the official RuneScape Forums may be familiar about, this was taken from the Forum Code of Conduct. ...'''Resolve disputes peacefully. That means no cheap shots and no come-backs.''' This is based on Wikipedia's dispute resolution and civility policies and the negotiation essay. Our Wiki is based on consensus, and it will only keep going is if we can make decisions peacefully without contributors getting angry. Sure, a debate is healthy and is what brings up brighter and more efficient ideas, but don't go overboard. Use their talk page instead. OK, the main thinking behind this was the debate over a certain editor's recent indefinite block. I thought that an argument regarding an editor or the status of their account would be better suited to a user talk page, rather than the YG. I agree with Az on the censoring of words according to RuneScape. 13:44, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed with Az. This wiki already is enforced according to most RuneScape rules, I can't really see why, with a few exceptions, this shouldn't be the case here. Now, my question is about euphemisms... For example, crud over crap, for instance. I don't see why these would be any problem, though I'm open to discussion on that. --Pikaandpi 13:51, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * My argument is that language of an offensive nature should be removed because there is no reasonable cause to use it in the first place. When are we going to use the word "crud" when talking about our Wiki? 13:54, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I'll have to admit I'm not sure how to respond in terms to the first sectence, as it kinda renders what I was going to say obslete <_< Buto for example "I'm sick and tired with all this crap" could easily be replaced with "I'm sick and tired with all this crud." Not so much talking "about" the Wiki, but within the Wiki about, say, RuneScape itself or whats happening in the real world. --Pikaandpi 13:59, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Language of an offensive nature, yes. If you are offended by the word crap, it's time to grow up a little bit. 14:02, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * When you put it that way... obviously the word is not offensive, "You're a piece of crap", "You're full of crap" can rub off as an attack. 14:06, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Nothing personal, Karlis. But, "Crap" by definition is excrement and the act of defecating. See The Free Dictionary's first two definitions. The dictionary also mentions it as a "vulgar slang".  Although I'm not offended by euphemism use of the word, the word itself is disgusting, and similar words may be used instead.
 * Lets just put it this way. RuneScape requires their users to be age 13 or over. We can follow similar guidelines. Children 13 years old are mature enough to deal with some words. From what it seems, there is going to be no way to settle this as non-offensive words can be used in an attack. I think we are going to have to deal with this on a case-by-case basis. If I see something like "All I got form my slayer mission was a bunch of crap" or "I didn't get a damn thing from barrows" I'm not going to take any action, as it would be rediculous. If it is an attack at another player, then obviously the circumstances are different. I really think we need to get off the topic of offensive language and more on the topic of offensive content. There is a huge difference between the two. 14:20, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Guide to the Yew Grove
OK, since the current discussion seems to be going nowhere, I have another proposal. Instead of having the "rules" section as stated above, I think we should have a link to a Yew Grove Guide essay. It would state the rules (remember, ESSAY, which means you don't have to follow them) and much more stuff, like how to make a proposal, giving feedback, etc. I'll start drafting. What do you think? 04:54, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a interesting idea, where would you put it on the wiki to make sure everyone who needs to view it can view it? -- Rune ldr 88  03:58, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I was thinking probably at the top of this page... 04:49, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Forums
Has anybody noticed that the forums are down? Or is it just me? 20:44, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * If they were, they are up again. [[Image:Prayer.gif]]Jediadam4 [[Image:Abyssal Whip.gif]] 22:12, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Um... not for me. 21:26, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Guys why are the forums down? Is it just me or are you guys experiencing this too? 14:40, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not "down" to me. I just posted a test message there. 14:57, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
 * "503 service unavailable", been going on for a week for me. I don't wanna miss anything important *cough* "I'm sick of this" thread *cough*. 15:15, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I always wondered why you *cough* a lot. Error 503 is a server-side problem, but it seems to only affect you.  See HTTP Error 503.  16:04, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Idk why I cough seriously it's hard to explain. 19:31, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Anyway, when will it stop doing this? 14:34, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

It works for me, too. What browser are you using? Try using Firefox 3 and accessing them.--Richard 19:55, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Omg I use ff and I just tried it on safari, guess what? It works! Ok anyway I've got some catching up. 23:45, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It seems whenever I log in I can't access the forums... Dtm... 23:49, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Outdated info on home page
When people load the home page they see outdated info and links about the 2008 RuneScape Autumn-Wiki Fest. Can someone change this please? It is driving me insane not being able to do anything about it. Jediadam4 22:12, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Odd, I changed the sitenotice BEFORE you posted that comment, I could have sworn. I could be wrong, though.
 * Nope, not unless you did it in like a 2 minute span between when I visited the home page and visited the Yew Grove and made the comment. Thanks anyways.

Jediadam4 05:56, 10 October 2008 (UTC)