Talk:The Godless

Godless subsections
Following the discussion on the Gods talk page, I decided to continue the conversation here, as this is the page about faction or group of individuals identifying as 'The Godless', opposed to an deity named 'godless'. As this page (currently) states, the Godless faction that does not follow any god. In fact it tries to keep the gods out of Gielinor and attempt to keep it a place only for mortals. Seeing as this was the 'death-wish' of Guthix it is understandable that people initially confused it as a solely Guthixian group. And although it may have members identifying as Guthixian (or formerly identifying as such), it is by no means exclusively so. --- On the God-talk page it was suggested to make a subsections of groups and people that would join this faction. Similar things could be done with other factions (e.g.: The Saradomin faction could have: Faladorian White knights and the Myreque as distinct groups with other things that set them apart (like method and values) while they boths till support Saradomin). In the Godless faction it has been suggested to make at least two or three subgroups: Please, feel free to discuss. 22:13, May 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * The (Formerly) Guthixian Godless
 * The Dorgeshuun-style Godless
 * The 'Other'-category

I don't think the Godless Faction or any faction should be broken down into previous factions, as regardless of their previous allegiances, members have come together under one banner. It should be noted however that The Godless faction are less cohesive than other factions and have internal divisions such as;
 * Those who wish to attain godhood.
 * Those who follow none of the gods.
 * Those who would protect Gielinor at all costs.
 * It's also worth pointing out that none of the 3 are mutually exclusive with either of the other two. 04ismailjj6 (talk) 10:23, May 29, 2013 (UTC)


 * I like these better :3 11:25, May 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, but i can't take all the credit. Super-String's forum thread provided the words, since they were better than the ones I had in mind :)
 * I've been wondering if the other factions should be divided up internally too. It seems like they'd be much more cohesive though, I gues I'll wait till God Emissaures comes out in a few hours, hopefully. :D04ismailjj6 (talk) 12:01, May 29, 2013 (UTC)


 * How do we know which banner the Dorgeshuun will be under, afterall they fought for Bandos before? The Godless Faction itself (most likely) refers to Guthixian Godless, while Dorgeshuun Godless is more isolated, as I don't know if they will or will not fight for the Guthixian Godless, or indeed fight at all...? I think the Godless faction should be exclusively Ex-Guthixian, as they follow Guthix's teachings, while Godlessness as a whole should be devided into different branches. Unless, ofcourse, the Dorgeshuun fight for the Godless faction, inwhich case I believe the Godless Faction should be branched off (as they still don't follow Guthix Godlessness)... :D Italay90 (talk) 12:19, May 29, 2013 (UTC)


 * PS. I believe that The Godless should be a seperate article from Godless/Godlessness, as Godless/Godlessness, is a view that there should be no god in Gielinor, whilst The Godless is a faction who fight for this belief, following Guthix's teachings of "Balance".
 * Dorgeshuun Godless believe that all gods, including the now dead Guthix, are evil. Whereas Guthix Godless believe in Balance and peace. Therefore, I think it's best we make two articles, Godless, the view, and The Godless, the faction. If we made a "Godless" or "Godlessness" article, I believe it should consist of the following:
 * Guthix Godless
 * Dorgeshuun Godless
 * Other (if any) Godless
 * Italay90 (talk) 12:30, May 29, 2013 (UTC)

Godless Members
Shouldn't we ad those Godless members NPC? Their NPC, and their part of the Godless. 01:44, December 17, 2013 (UTC)


 * I believe so... I just haven't seen them around :( 12:44, December 17, 2013 (UTC)


 * I have, several times, they come and ask who to ambush more. 16:48, December 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, regardless, we should add them too, we should also add a little description to it. Like what you said. Btw, have you found that wandering alchemist too?? Any tricks in finding them?? :P 17:26, December 17, 2013 (UTC)


 * Just be lucky through convoys. 17:37, December 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Hmm... I wonder what my luck ratio is (and how much I miss) :P I should do more convoys and turn pvp off :P All those Armadyleans keep killing me 18:50, December 17, 2013 (UTC)

Vorago
Now, as excited as I can be that a boss npc is with the godless, should we really be putting it in to early? I mean after all the event isn't out yet, and not much information is out about why he is acting for the Godless. -- 12:50, March 16, 2015 (UTC)


 * Well, Vorago is technically supporting the Godless for the Tuska event, as evidenced by one of his Scopulus representing the faction. We'll know the rest once the event actually begins but for now all we need to know is Vorago will be on the side of the Godless. 13:21, March 16, 2015 (UTC)


 * While we, officially, ought to wait until it's released (Tuska event), I think it's pretty much 'confirmed'. We also don't see it as a problem with other things. I mean, even lore FAQs or twitter statements make it unto the wikia, even the ones that will never (isfaik) go in game. I don't think this is too problematic at all. 21:31, March 17, 2015 (UTC)
 * Vorago is as much of an ally to the Godless as the Gods are, he should not be listed under allies.
 * Proof said by Scopulus himself, sent by Vorago to speak on his behalf:
 * Player: Why are you with the Godless?
 * Scopulus: I am of the earth. The earth is not of the Godless. The earth is of the earth.
 * Scopulus: The earth stood with the Godless as the challenger approached. It was a necessity.
 * Scopulus: I do not stand here to aid these humans in their quest.

The last part says that they are not allies: "I do not stand here to aid these humans in their quest."Kcin2424 (talk) 21:56, July 14, 2015 (UTC)

Guthixian in Nature
No they aren't, they are a new religion that doesn'y follow his full religion, only his death wish, Jagex stated the two religion are different, but Guthixian would be condiered Godless to others in NPC 00:50, June 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * This is from this wiki page as well: "This is backed by the fact that Kara-Meir contacted Biehn after having received his letter. The two agreed to create a faction to continue Guthix's belief of a world belonging to no god."
 * There is no evidence in the lore stating that they do not follow guthix only that they do follow guthix. His teachigns is him now that is what the wanted he didn't want to be seen as a god.
 * They donot follow Guthix, they follow his Death wish, no Gods on Gielinor. Kara-Mier and Biehn agreeing of a new order that is to follow no god, doesn't mean it is Guthixian in nature, it just mean it was founded by two Guthixian. Please do not continue to edit the Page until it is worked out, or a Wikia mod will block this page... 01:01, June 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Guthix isn't on Gielinor now is he? He passed away last I remembered. He accepted his death because he did not want gods on Gielinor and wanted people to lead their own lives. The godless follow Guthix's wish as a teaching and not Guthix himself because he did not want that. That being said doesn't mean they don't follow him still. Following someone's teachigns is still following the person.
 * Either way that doesn;t make them Guthixian in nature, it is a another faction it self, stop editing the page, we are causing a edit war. 01:08, June 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * By saying it isn't guthixian in nature you are contradicing what is said later. Please explain how it is not guthixian in nature if they are following GUTHIX'S TEACHINGS.
 * First, stop changing the page already, if u want an explanation, Second, they aren't worshiping the god, or following his entire teaching of balance, they are only following his death wish.if they were Guthixian in nature, they would have been named Guthixian, or followed his Teaching of balance, but tthey aren't, because NOT ALL follow the taeaching of balance. Biehn never believed in it, and Kara-Mier either. 01:15, June 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * You are the one changing it from what it was all day. So if anyone should stop it is you. They don't have to worship him as a god for it to be guthixian in nature, they aren't guthixians I'm not saying that. They are following his teachings which his teachings are guthixian because they are his. His philosophy wasn't about balance it was about having no gods impacting the people living on the planet. The balance was what came from having no gods. Just read what Guthix said in his dying words during the world wakes to realize that.


 * Now that the page is protected we can settle it in here. They do not follow his teaching, they follow his death wish, Following his teaching would mean for them to follow the side of balance, nature, and so on, and they do not, they only follow his Death wish, no gods on Gielinor, they follow no teaching, their own teaching is Protecing the mortals, and the world, no balance, which is Guthixian Teachings. 01:38, June 5, 2015 (UTC)


 * Since you don't know lore I will post it here for you since you are to lazy to find it yourself. This is guthix's belief and his philosophy this is taken from the world wakes:

Guthix: I chose tribes who had no concept of gods, and I brought them to Gielinor, to live uninfluenced lives while I retained the balance.Guthix: I was foolish; my plan would never work. I will continue my tale along the path. Please, meet me when you are ready.Guthix: I should have seen it coming. I introduced them to the world, I had a power greater than they had ever seen.Guthix: The mortal races began to worship me. They built shrines to me, made sacrifices. They waited on my every word.Guthix: It pained me deeply to see myself becoming what I had always loathed.Guthix: They should not have been living beneath me, serving me. I wanted them to be free, balanced, to make their own decisions.Guthix: The races brought in by the now-banished gods remained, and disrupted the balance at every turn. Battles raged on, in the names of the absent gods. Nature and balance were the aftermath of his philosophy not his beleif nor his philosophy. And here are his teachings: But Guthix never wanted me - us - to worship him. He wanted to abandon the notion of worship completely, so that he could retire and leave the world to mortals.- Book of the Godless.

Now please show your evidence saying they are not following this. Please show yoru evidence of why this isn't guthixian in nature when it is Guthix's belife, his philosophy and his teachings.

I am not saying they do not follow Guthix wish of No gods in Gielinor, and not to worship him, I am not saying they did not get that idea from his real ideal, I am saying they do not follow the GUTHIXIAN teaching of BALANCE. They may be following HIS DEATH WISH, but it doesn't mean it is GUTHIXIAN in Nature, it just mean they agree with the idea, because they see it is true of the gods destruction. A Wikia staff had reworded the Wikia into a way that I see is fair. But again, I am not saying they do not follow his death wish and True Ideal, I am saying the Guthixian teaching, the one Druids, Gnomes, Dwarves, and the Guardian of Guthix Juna Followed, they do not Follow that teaching, as they do not follow the TEACHING on balance, Biehn never did, nor did Kara-Mier, They did Worship him as a god, Kara-Mier followed some of religion teaching of balance, as the Druid turned off Biehn teaching od portals, due it it being unholy. So the Godless is not Guthixian in Nature, not inherently Because His Teaching, his TRUE Teaching of no gods wasn't discovered until his death, and the only teaching Guthixian had that was true, was Balance in all things. 01:58, June 5, 2015 (UTC)

Just what I thought you have nothing backing your opinion. You have yet to show why it is not Guthixian in nature. To be of guthixian nature that would be to use his teachings and his beliefs. Which I have already shown you have a misconception of. Please tell me where he has the beleif of nature first in this "Guthix: I chose tribes who had no concept of gods, and I brought them to Gielinor, to live uninfluenced lives while I retained the balance.Guthix: I was foolish; my plan would never work. I will continue my tale along the path. Please, meet me when you are ready.Guthix: I should have seen it coming. I introduced them to the world, I had a power greater than they had ever seen.Guthix: The mortal races began to worship me. They built shrines to me, made sacrifices. They waited on my every word.Guthix: It pained me deeply to see myself becoming what I had always loathed.Guthix: They should not have been living beneath me, serving me. I wanted them to be free, balanced, to make their own decisions.Guthix: The races brought in by the now-banished gods remained, and disrupted the balance at every turn. Battles raged on, in the names of the absent gods"

There you are wrong, I gave you the story of teh Book of the gods, as well as Old lore before the World wake, and what Juna said about Guthix's death. U just aren't trying to see the point, that they DO not follow his teaching, only his death wish. Again, they aren't Guthixian in nature, as they do not folow the teaching of the religion. because The religion still shun portal magic, working with demons, and other race that they think is a threat to balance. Godless disobey all of that teaching, So again, Guthixian in Nature no, if they do not follow the Religion Teaching. 02:21, June 5, 2015 (UTC)

Where was the quote you gave I didn't see quote and citation. Old lore can be very outdated(as shown by Zaros's old lore compared to his new lore) Please how they do not follow his teaching of no gods, please explain how they do not follow his do not worship gods teaching. He was the god of balance, that doesn't mean his teachings are balance. Just like Zamorak's teaching isn't chaos, its strength through chaos.Kcin2424 (talk) 02:46, June 5, 2015 (UTC)

I never said, again please read, I did not say they do not follow his teachings of no gods. I only am stating they do not following the Religion's full teaching. as stated above, beinng. The proof is IN the book of the gods, look it up, as I am not going to do what u say, because you want me to. His teachings were also balance. So again. The informations I told you are on The book of the gods, Juna, and Old lore of HIS religion, where they thought his teachings were like the druids study. As again, it is even still in the current lore, in the 5th age timeline. SO again, I am not saying they do not follow his death wish of No gods in gielinor, and no worship, but that doesn'y make them Guthixian in Nature, as again, Biehn left teh religion, and Druid to form a new Religion that can achieve his Death wish. and A lot of Mortals agree, and not all of them are Guthixian. SO please, Understand I am saying they aren't in nature as teh Religion (Guthixian, not the God him self) Teaching was, and still is based on what it is, Balance, peace, No gods, but only humans, gnomes and dwarves. Something Godless are different in. This is the 5th Time I had to repeate my self, Please look at the page, the Wikia Staff had ediit it a better wording. 02:53, June 5, 2015 (UTC)

Again no quote but again you claim blance, again I counter saying Zamorak is the god of chaos but his philosophy/beleif/teaching is strenght through chaos not chaos itself. In Guthix's case here it would be his belief is no gods, his tool is balance. Please provide quotes with sources showing how Guthix's teachings is not guthixian in nature when it is created by him. You can't say something isn't of x nature when x created it. Kcin2424 (talk) 02:58, June 5, 2015 (UTC)Kcin

I am not gonig to give u the proof, that u can look through your self. And his teaching is balance, meeting history, claims it, but if you want proof, go look for it, it is late over here, I am tired, I am not gonig my way to give someone proof, when I had to repeate several time where u can find it. Believe what you want, but they aren't Guthixian in Nature. Period they are their own religion and beleif, yes from another gods, who they agree with,. 03:05, June 5, 2015 (UTC)

You aren't going to give me that proof because you don't have it because it doesn't exist. Meeting history is old outdated lore. From Guthix himself it is not his belief it is an after affect of his belief. DO i have to requote that again? Do you not know the difference in lore from 5th age quests and 6th age quests? You repeat the same false opinion, you haven't been able to prove your side. It is not on me to find the proof to back you up, it is your job to do that and if you cannot do that then you show that it isn't there and you have nothing. They are Guthixian in nature all the evidence in this Talk points to it. Kcin2424 (talk) 03:22, June 5, 2015 (UTC)Kcin

It does exixt, U are a big boy, look for it. They aren't Guthixian in Nature, Meeting history is a quest, even in the Guthixian memories, From the tribute of guthix supports the Quests lore. U are a big boy, look for it. Don't want to, it's not my fault u cant see it here. I gave you location, I will not respond until u find it. 03:27, June 5, 2015 (UTC)

The burdon of proof lies on you, not me. I should not have to find a quote that disproves me, that is your responsiblity if you do not provide you are admitting you are wrong in this debate. You haven't proven they aren't Guthixian in nature not in a single bit. Meeting history is a 5th age quest, The world wake is a 6th age quest so in this case the world wake lore overrides the meeting history lore. Again it isn't my responsibility to find evidence for yoru side that is on you. It is your fault I can't see it because you haven't provided it. So with your last statement you are admitting it is Guthixian in nature as you fail to provide evidence other wise. Case closed they are inherently Guthixian. Kcin2424 (talk) 03:49, June 5, 2015 (UTC)Kcin

So can the page be fixed as we have shown and he has not shown they are guthixian in natureKcin2424 (talk) 13:02, June 5, 2015 (UTC)kcin


 * Besides them not being 'Guthixian in Nature', what would that even mean, it's not explained at all, not on the Guthix page either. Besides it being needlessly divisive, it's also likely false... why is it still locked and a problem even? Where is the other person arguing for the inclusion? And if that person does not show up, how long will it still be locked? 11:33, June 6, 2015 (UTC)
 * The page will remain protected until [ 01:19, June 12, 2015 (UTC)]. If the edit wars continue after the protection expires, the page may be protected again and those engaging in it may also be blocked. 16:44, June 6, 2015 (UTC)


 * To be Guthixian in nature would mean it resemebles of have the nature of what guthix said. In other words the roots of it are in Guthix which they are. Another way to say it is that they follow what Guthix teached, which again they do. They have the Guthixian nature that Guthix had against the gods. As well as the definition of inherent is "existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute" so following the teachings of Guthix(the wanting and having no gods on/effecting Gielinor) being essential to the godless belief would say it is inheretnly Guthixian in nature. I have proven that it isn't false to say it is Guthixian in nature as it follows Guthix's philosophy of having no gods on Gielinor. The other person left the discussion because he could not prove it is not Guthixian in nature which shows it is Guthixian in nature if that can be proved but it can't be proved that it isn't. So I ask again, in light of all the evidence, and no evidence showing it isn't in the nature of guthix could the page please be corrected.Kcin2424 (talk) 00:01, June 7, 2015 (UTC) kcin


 * Here you go.


 * 1. They are not Guthixian in nature for the fact that Guthix's Teaching in balance, is not what the Godless do. Remember, the Guthixian went against Guthix in worshipping him, and went into HIS teaching of Balance. "Where does it say he is the god of balance?" Right here of course <This page explains all of his philosophy, how he wished for a world of balance, and taught the mortal balance. The Godless do not follow this belief of balance, as the religion GUTHIXIAN do, and most member before going godless went against some of those rules. Like Biehn In the book of the gods, he states how he never believes in the religion, and how Guthix view on balance in all thing was false as the god him self was higher, HE questions the religion that was Mortal made. Not god made, as Guthix never wanted a religion dedicated to him, he study blood magick and portals against the Religions study. Oh? Proof? Right here in The Book of the Gods/The Book of the Godless it states, and I will gladly quote


 * "I noticed the flecks of blood on your last letter. It's always fun to play this game, and I get to uncork my bloodsource potions (not much call for them in sleepy Taverley). The potion's past its best, but I'd hazard a guess that the blood's human, from West Ardougne. Am I right? It would make the score 3-2 to me, I believe.

Anyway, Kara, I have news, some of which you'll have heard.

Guthix is dead, and the other druids are spreading the word to towns and cities. I'm not with them, as I'm leaving the order. It'll come as no surprise to you; I've been thinking about leaving for some time." (It pretty much shows there how he was going to leave being a Guthixian druid, as the next words there>)" I t rung false: why would Guthix want us to live as equals, if he was above us in every conceivable way - in wisdom, in morals, in power? I always mistrusted him for that ." He never beleived in the teaching and history of that religion, which is created by the mortals

"But Guthix never wanted me - us - to worship him. He wanted to abandon the notion of worship completely, so that he could retire and leave the world to mortals. When Kaqemeex told me that, a fog cleared. Everything I'd thought until then was wrong."

So I've left the druids, Kara. My new address is attached. When you've finished your bloody tour of Kandarin, would you come see me? I have a proposal, and I wonder if you'd be interested in pursuing it.

Safest regards,

- Bieh"

BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE!

"Biehn,

Yep, you guessed right - she was from West Ardougne. Not sure you get the victory, though, as your details were a little vague. She was middle aged, a Zamorakian spy, and missing an arm when she died.

Sure, I'd heard about Guthix - hard not to. The Zamorakian monks to the west keep claiming the kill, as if they slipped a knife in his side personally. Course, the monks say that with Guthix gone, chaos reigns, the world is Zamorak's etc.

Glad to hear you've moved on from the druids. They were bound to chuck you out for your blood potions and portal magicks," ( This means that being a Guthixian druid, the religion told him against the work of portal Magicks and blood potions.)"anyhow. I guess you keep your reputation this way - whatever that reputation is. Old, gruff and verging on crazy?

I can't make it to your new address - not for a while, anyway. Do you mind sending me your proposal in a letter? Should be safe as long as you threaten the courier a little. An honest threat dispatches a letter, quick and unread.

I'm developing an entourage - if one person counts. You said I should travel with others, so I'm with a demon called Ux. Don't worry, he's not your traditional horns-and-brimstone type. He's broken from the Demon Pact and plans to take arms against Zaros and Zamorak. Thought that might interest you.

- Kara-Meir"

This here means Kara-Meir, a Guthixian who didn't follow the Religion's teaching COMPLETLY was willing to work with a demon, even in the Novel she showed some signs of, agressive behavior before being godless.

More evidence to come :D

"Dear Kara-Meir,

Good grief - a demon? Always wanted to know about the Infernal Dimensions, and how Zaros got them to sign the pact. You have to admire using the demons' love of contracts against them." (No Guthixian wants to know this.)

I've risked writing my proposal in a letter. It's against my better judgment to send it like this, but the post-boy had an honest face and - once he read your name on the envelope - he knew what would happen if it was waylaid.

So, to my proposal. I apologise for the bombast. It's a fantastic opportunity to be self-important:

'This world - Gielinor - is for mortals. It is not for gods, since they can find no peace with one another, let alone us. Gods bring war, know war, and are war. It is mortals alone that can find peace, as long as they share a common ground, and that common ground is a defence against gods.'

So, I want to gather like-minded people. I want to gather those that have a shred of doubt when they pray; who feel a tug of fear that the gods are returning; who question the right for gods to rule. I want to gather these people and form an alliance, changing the minds of the populace, standing firm and silent against the gods. I want the gods to be faced with a wall of resistance - and I want them to leave.

And I want you to help me do it. What do you think? That sit right with you? I was considering 'The Antitheists' as a name.

Safest regards,

- Biehn"

So, from all this, two Former Guthixian made a Faction not for Guthix's name, but for mortal's sake, into taking action against the gods.

2. Guthix IS the god of balance. Not because he says so, no, remember, he never wanted to be worshipped, or have a religion dedicated to him. My proof? Up there on Number one. What can't seee it? it's on Guthix's Page of course. What made him into the GOD OF BALANCE is from what he taught the mortals on the 1st age of Gielinor before sleeping. What? Need proof? Ok here you go:

Laura, Meeting History:"[Guthix] spoke a lot about balance, and encouraging us to live in harmony with our surroundings - to feel free to use our environment; but not to abuse it."

Here, from what Guthix told them, they saw him as a god when he showed them Gielinor, and sought him as teh God of balance soon. Oh, need proof of the worshipping him asap? There you go!:

Guthix The World Wakes/Transcript "The mortal race began to worship me. They built shrines to me. Made sacrifices. They waited on my every word. it pained me deeply to see my self becoming what I had always loathed."

Pretty much Guthixian is a religion for Guthix made by mortals, only going to what he taught and beleived it. "But where does he say his belief is Balance?"

Again? Well if you insists :) He says so right in the Guthixian Memories

Memory 15

"...The creatures still remembered me, and I could not help but reveal myself to them as I rebuilt. Yet, I still wanted them to forget. The world was as safe as I could make it. I resolved to sleep once more, for as long as it took. No gods, no war. Nature, balance, freedom, and peace..."

Lets not forget in the World wakes he states:Guthix: Player, I have been the most powerful being on Gielinor since my arrival. Of course I could have stopped Sliske if I had desired to. But I embrace my death. It must occur, if the world is to be balanced.

He clrearly states be believes in balance there, his philosophy even during the quest, which you can see the walk through here:The World Wakes Where there is a puzzle door that shows a bar on either you being good, or evil, and picking a neutral/Balanced side will grant you Guardian of Guthix power. even in his Wikia page quotes. "Guthix was the god of balance, and wished to have a world without gods where mortals could live in peace and balance without interference."

He was on the side of balance.

Point to take. All this proof comes to show that

1. Godless do not share the Religion (not the god, religion) teachings, which shows they are not inherently Guthixian as they go against all of the Religions teachings, a few memberrs may be Guthixian, but other mortals from around the world, in other race and religion joined them, which goes against them being inherently Guthixian.

2. His death wish is not is a philosophy, yes he did want it, and believed it to bring balance into the world, but it doesn't mean that his religion follows it. Remember after his death his religion no longer exists, as the truth of what he wanted is out. He never taught those who worshipped him about a world of no gods. if he did, then yes, the Godless would be inherently Guthixian due for him teaching them that only difference would be that the Godless don't worship him, and never did. But he didn't taught them that, it was revealed that we worshipped him when he didn't want it, he was being a teacher, not a God for a religion.

An example on how his philosophy is not a religion thing is Publix. Their founder has a philosophy where all customers needs to be treated like guests in a house, and all employees needs to be treated as a family member. This doesn't mean the company worships him, are Georgians, and do his Philosophy as a god. It means they respect it, and wish to continue it after he died, to respect and honor his view of a better work place. This goes to the same with Guthix. His religion was going against what he believed in because he said nothing. But once he said the truth, a few stood up together to honor his dying wish, that he asked the World guardian to do, not a bunch of random mortals. He would be proud of us yes. But this doesn't make us inherently Guthixian, as the religion went against his belief, only went to his philosophy of balance, and knew nothing of his truth after his death. So no my friend, after proving to you, that they are not inherently Guthixian, due to the fact the religion had nothing to do with Guthix death wish, is no longer a religion but a belief after his death, and him giving us his death wish doesn't make it a teaching he gave to those who worshipp him, because he never wanted to be worshipped, or a religion to begin with. So teh Godless are not Guthixian inherently or in Nature, as the Religion was false from the start, and Guthix wanted nothing to do with it. Two people agrees that they are not. 03:58, June 13, 2015 (UTC)

To the people who misunderstood what Kcin2424 said he was saying they have roots of guthix and not a guthix faction and reread these quotes: From the world wakes : Guthix: I chose tribes who had no concept of gods, and I brought them to Gielinor, to live uninfluenced lives while I retained the balance.

Guthix: I was foolish; my plan would never work. I will continue my tale along the path. Please, meet me when you are ready.

Guthix: I should have seen it coming. I introduced them to the world, I had a power greater than they had ever seen.

Guthix: The mortal races began to worship me. They built shrines to me, made sacrifices. They waited on my every word.

Guthix: It pained me deeply to see myself becoming what I had always loathed.

Guthix: They should not have been living beneath me, serving me. I wanted them to be free, balanced, to make their own decisions.

Guthix: The races brought in by the now-banished gods remained, and disrupted the balance at every turn. Battles raged on, in the names of the absent gods.

Please tell me how that has nothing to do with no gods teaching.

And here is the other point that backs up that they follow Guthix's teachings and are Guthixian IN NATURE and not a Guthixian faction.

But Guthix never wanted me - us - to worship him. He wanted to abandon the notion of worship completely, so that he could retire and leave the world to mortals. When Kaqemeex told me that, a fog cleared. Everything I'd thought until then was wrong. - Book of the Gods/GodlessKcin of Zamorak (talk) 14:08, June 13, 2015 (UTC)

Same proof the numbered one gave out, how they started, and I still stand with my source. Those aren't teachings because he never taught a religion that, he just stood there and watched. As I stated before. Guthix death wish is a wish, something he wanted for mortals, not a teaching as the religion it self had no teaching of it, and is not a belief to others. Godless is a new Philosophy that agrees with Guthix's death wish of the world. They may agree with a belief, but that doesn't make them inheritly Guthixian. IF a Jagex mod is to say otherwise, all case would be closed. But there is nothing supporting that they are Guthixian in nature, as nothing shows them following the Religion (not the god, religion) teaching, and believe in a world of no Gods. If you reread what I posted, the only roots they have, is belief of no gods in gielinor, but it doesn't mean they are Guthixian in Nature. Those Proof you gave me, are teh same as Kcin2424, just information on them being made, nothing shows they are Guthixian by Nature, because they aren't. As I said, if a Jagex Mod says otherwise, then anything goes. But nothing supports that proof. 14:25, June 13, 2015 (UTC)

Page changes/edit war
To the person who keeps changing the page to false information please read the discussion. It has been proven that they are guthixian in nature and nothing to show that they aren't.Kcin2424 (talk) 01:48, June 13, 2015 (UTC)

"Guthixian"
First of all, I have no idea which side of the argument above is right, nor do I have an opinion on the matter. Seeing the discussion, I wonder if everyone has the same definition of what "Guthixian" (in the current context) encompasses, however. Does "Guthixian" mean "the religion formed by people worshipping Guthix as the God of Balance in all things", or "following the true wish of Guthix to create a world without worship"? IP83.101.44.209 (talk) 14:20, June 13, 2015 (UTC)


 * Now adays it's a belief. True wish of guthix in a world with out gods would be Godless view. Guthixian wwould be of Godless view in no gods, but also in his teachings of balance in all things as well. 14:33, June 13, 2015 (UTC)


 * Are we going to say then that Kara-Meir is Bandosian in nature, since all she seems to want to do is Fight and Kill all the gods? The Godless are a seperate facion from the Guthixian, it's even stated in the letters the FOUNDER of the organisation. Just because they happen to have at least one main point of view similar (or even identical) to that of Guthix, doesn't mean they're Guthixian in nature let alone Guthixian. Also... if this is what you'd define as "Guthixian" would you also say that "Guthixians" are not "Guthixian", because some still follow Guthix as they did before TWW? Just because they share one of two things with something else, doesn't mean you can and should equate them. All it does is giving people the wrong idea, while it doesn't really make it a ot more clear (it warrants further explanation, which would not be needed if it wasn't added, a different explanation would be just as good - from your pov, surely). It doesn't add anythin substantice at all, all it does is seed confusion. 82.74.146.3 17:24, June 14, 2015 (UTC)
 * Pretty much my point proven there. With so much saying no on Guthixian in Nature, the words in the page should stay how it is. 17:31, June 14, 2015 (UTC)

Re:Everything above
Holy crap, guys, what's wrong with you! O.O 07:10, June 15, 2015 (UTC)


 * I wanna say everything lol. Nah, just this dude trying to hard to say Godless are Guthixian in Nature. His stuff shows no proof, so I how my stuff on proof how they are not. Any statement on your own :o? 14:07, June 15, 2015 (UTC)


 * From what it looks like to me is this, you(king) are saying they are not a Guthixian faction. While kcin is saying they originate from Guthix's teachings meaning they have some history from there and it is a part of their faction even though the two factions are different. Both are correct it looks like everything is just a miscommunication.Eragon the Slayer (talk) 16:01, June 15, 2015 (UTC)


 * If you read through everything i said, i am saying they aren't Guthixian in Naure, or even part of any roots, as Godless not something Guthix taught to his followers, and is something that exist even before him. Example is teh Icyene, most fought against Saradomin but failed. Zamorak, in the view of killing a god. And the eastern islands, who don't worship no gods, only a few worshiped one, but most only go through the point of Anima mindi as power source. 16:12, June 15, 2015 (UTC)


 * This wiki page even states that they follow/continue the teachings of Guthix. As the page puts it "to continue Guthix's belief of a world belonging to no god. "Eragon the Slayer (talk) 16:23, June 15, 2015 (UTC)


 * Their belief is the same as Guthix wish, doesn't make them Guthixian in Nature. Guthix wish is not a teaching, it's a belief, he never taught his followers about no gods and worship. This page only stated that their philosophy is similar to the wishes of the god of balance, Guthix, not teaching (which is balance in all things) Wish, something he wants us as world guardian to do. The Godless follow no teachings, and just have the belief that Guthix wanted us to have, a world where mortals can rule. 21:56, June 15, 2015 (UTC)
 * Hell no, I'm staying out of this! 08:41, June 16, 2015 (UTC)

For the record, Kcin of Zamorak and Eragon the Slayer are sockpuppets of Kcin2424. 11:59, June 16, 2015 (UTC)


 * Then from everything else done. This this page is to remain with the wording it has.Seeing how ppl agreed they are not Guthixian in nature during the time, and there being no proof of them being it in Nature. Only change of that will be made if Jagex said other wise 15:02, June 16, 2015 (UTC)

First off those accounts were created by Adventureres and not myself so do not try and drag my name through mud.

Everything is not done until the wording is correct. The Godless are inherenetly Guthixian in nature. The only people who agreed they are not Guthixian in nature are you and Gaz both of which blocked me because I was proving right. I come bearing more evidence. This time direct comparisons to what Guthix has said, and what Godless faction members have said as well as other sources that have been told of guthix and his edicts and such and as such Jagex has said otherwise against you. Here you go see all of the almost word for word in some cases:


 * Mortals are made to be free. I am in no hurry to be led by an imbecile who craves nothing but power. Why should anyone but me decide my fate?
 * Biehn, our leader, set up the Godless in the hope that we might free mortals from the tyranny of gods. We do not need to worship them.
 * – Kara-Meir on tuska’s back


 * I chose tribes who had no concept of gods, and I brought them to Gielinor, to live uninfluenced lives while I retained the balance.
 * I was foolish; my plan would never work. I will continue my tale along the path. Please, meet me when you are ready.
 * I should have seen it coming. I introduced them to the world, I had a power greater than they had ever seen.
 * The mortal races began to worship me. They built shrines to me, made sacrifices. They waited on my every word.
 * It pained me deeply to see myself becoming what I had always loathed.
 * They should not have been living beneath me, serving me. I wanted them to be free, balanced, to make their own decisions.
 * By a mortal. Someone with the power to defend against the gods, but not the power to be one.
 * If the gods are not stopped
 * -Guthix the world wakes


 * I remember why it was agreed with Guthix. Gods and their wars are something to be rejected.
 * -Hero’s welcome( V )


 * Guthix’s edicts:
 * When Guthix laid down his edicts and forced the other gods to flee
 * –Hero’s welcome(Yrsa)

The godless not wanting gods(ban/kill depending on the side within the faction).Kcin2424 (talk) 21:56, July 14, 2015 (UTC)


 * You were blocked for edit warring and ban evading. If you start editing the page again before this discussion is settled, you will be blocked again. Both of you, if needed. 22:30, July 14, 2015 (UTC)