RuneScape talk:WikiGuilds/Music tracks

On this page, we can discuss the various aspects of the WikiGuild. Propose tasks or projects, criticise articles, alert of updates, query, comment, question, etc.

Legality of audio files
We are going to hold off on including the actual music for now right? Per what Robert laid out in the YG discussion?--Degenret01 05:08, December 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * I am unsure, this is what we're here to discuss ^_^ I think no new audio files should be uploaded until we have this sorted completely. I would like it if we have the full length midis, but am unsure if we can. Cheers,  05:14, December 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * Ohh hell yes! If we could have a whole database of articles full of information including the actual song using QuickTime.. that would be awesome. I can't wait to see how this project will grow. My only question: How can I help ? 20:30, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to know a couple of things: Thanks, 20:34, December 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Why are we discussing it here instead of the "Discussion" section on the project page?
 * 2) Should we start creating music pages similar to Norse Code? I'd be happy to begin as soon as the word is given,
 * 3) I'm curious as to where I can find these MIDI files... please see here.

I'm pretty sure we can use at least a bit of the music as it is used in other articles. 21:49, December 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * That's because it's currently allowed in RS:IMP under British fair dealing: "Fair dealing with a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work for the purposes of research or private study does not infringe any copyright in the work or, in the case of a published edition, in the typographical arrangement." However, Robert contested our ability to apply that clause.  -- 03:01, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

Hmm...?
Are we going to create an article for each individual song, or can we lump the same ones under one title? I.E., Attack1, Attack2... Fanfare1, Fanfare2.. -- 23:01, December 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * Dunno. We also have to consider the "Scape" songs, which aren't numbered like the Attack and Fanfare songs. 00:16, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * Also to be noted is the names of some songs. I don't think people are going to search for 'Scape' to find the group of songs, more likely more direct, I.E. "Scape Soft." -- 01:46, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

I would think that we could put disambiguation pages for things like that. (i.e. search Scape, comes up with Scape Soft, Scape Wild, ect)  16:01, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. A page for every song, along with disambig pages for song series', like 'scape --'/'--scape', 'attackx', 'fanfarex' etc etc etc. 16:19, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

When are we going to start?
I feel this WikiGuild has a lot of members now, so any ideas when we can start? I feel rather exited about this project. 16:46, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

NEW IDEA!: How about we not only make pages for the music tracks and record tunes, but also try to record every sound in the game? (i.e. shades' attacking noise, going through Stronghold of Security doors, ringing a slayer bell, ect) Sure it will take some work, but that would realy bring the wiki to life! We could put NPC attacking noises on relevent pages, and sounds with the item/teleport/movment/anything's pages. 17:03, December 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * I wonder when we are actually going to engage in starting this concept. The Morse Code concept template has already been created so I think we should begin to start making similar pages immediately. If the pages are still under discussed development, then at least we should create them anyway but instead not include any link to them until further say. 05:12, December 20, 2009 (UTC)

I like the idea. I don't know much about putting audio on wikis or anything like that, but I've always felt like the music clips and bits of speeches on Wikipedia really help add another dimension to the articles. I'm not sure how much of a toll it would put on a computer, or if that's even an issue, though. That aside, I also think we ought to start some of these song articles pretty soon. As soon as someone gives the word, I'll start helping out. 22:00, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

That's what I mean. It's like 3D shapes: you have your main article, with the facts (Your 1st dimension), then you have your images (Your 2nd dimesion), but most of this wiki lacks the 3rd dimension of SOUNDS. Like I put when I signed up, I don't know anything about putting in sonds, but if someone could put this idea into practice hat would be great! 22:23, December 17, 2009 (UTC) That would be a simply massive but very rewarding project. I don't really know how to do audio or video for the wiki, so I couldn't help much, but it would give new life to our wiki. But first things first, get the music tracks (and, for those and other tracks, minimise other sounds. For example, do NOT ring a slayer bell whilst recording a track. But it is a good idea, I Support.-- 23:44, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

I like that idea, hard, but could be used to recognize stuff in the game (i.e. people could know what hit them if they listened to random sounds in the game?) How about we only start with the important on the wiki (such as different weapons do different sounds, could be useful in combat?) What do you think? 00:40, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

Support that idea - Per Yoda, first things first, and players may also know better stuff about what to expect in some places, like TzTok-Jad's attacks, that can be hugely differenciated not only for the movements, but also for the sounds. 15:56, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

Denied - Please read the temp parameters discussion. 08:48, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

WHEN ARE WE GOING TO START ? !!!!!

Kinda hot and bothered atm...
Anyone else think that the girl in the pic is kinda hot? -- 23:59, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * Uh... is this appropriate? -- 00:08, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that comment was appropriate or at all helpful, Fruit Smoothie. We are discussing articles about music pages, NOT your opinion on whether a bunch of pixels that is used to illustrate the project page is attractive. You seem to make a lot of irrelevant and irritating comments on the Yew Grove and talk pages. Please stop this now. 00:11, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

Closed - 08:48, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

So...
Any idea when we can start yet? Eager McBeaver, aka 17:55, December 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * I see no reason why we should delay further (or even why we delayed at all). 20:27, December 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * Me neither, I wanna start it! :D 20:55, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

Those in favor of starting? YES! LET'S GO! 22:18, December 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm in favor =). -- 00:49, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

Denied - Please read the temp parameters discussion. 08:48, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

Excuse me, but some people have started to make music pages already. Search Barbarianism. We may as well get started, and the template is fine as it is for now, in my opinion. Besides, anything else can be added into the main article. 03:54, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

Audio files and compression
While obtaining audio files is of relative ease, not everyone could collect these tracks. The Wikipedia supported Audacity is suggested to be used to record from your sound card, yet not all sound cards allow this (most notably laptops).

Another issue regarding the sound bank is the Audio Team adding or removing bits of sounds from certain tracks. This issue can be more easily seen with the old midi files roaming the Internet. As well, these tracks might be subject to opinion (as all things are). One person may believe "X" of song "A" is better than "Y" and another person vice-versa.

Alongside this issue lies our Non-free audio license. We would generally only give a 30 second audio bite to a song at or above 5 minutes long. If it were less than 5 minutes long, we would use 5% (10% maybe?) of the total song length. However, I do not think most people would record the entire song and test the length. But albeit, they are not for sale and the interpretation may be different based on that bit.

Finally, would we continue to use OGG files (and midi files) and reduce the quality to keep from infringing on Jagex's rights despite what RS:IMAGE says? I would continue with what I had attempted to do earlier this year knowing that I only lack 3 of all listed tracks in the sound bank. (This was a pain to type on the iPhone...)

Cheers. 01:20, December 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * It seems that we determined that it was OK to use the entire audio file, although User:Robert Horning contested that in the forum thread that resulted in this WikiGuild. There doesn't seem to be anything in the policy with respect to the allowed audio quality, either.  I don't think we've reached consensus on what the correct legal interpretation should be.  -- 02:51, December 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * I've got a few hundred midi files from before the music update where cache did not contain music. In midi files, you cannot really reduce the quality, so... yeah. 02:58, December 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * If we actually wanted to have audio with good fidelity then we should be recording Ogg files directly from the RuneScape client. The quality of MIDI files can vary greatly depending on the player and the instrument patchset that you use.  However, I believe RuneScape uses it's own fixed patchset so it should sound the same for everybody.  The main downside is that you can't easily determine things like instruments/tempo/notes without the MIDI file. -- 03:14, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

wikipedia:Wikipedia:Music_samples is where I drew the conclusion at the start of this conversation. 22:02, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

Template Parameters
I think we need to try to finalize the parameters for Infobox Music before any music articles are created. There are a bunch of different things User:Chicken7 suggested go on music articles, which are listed here. Which of these do we want to add to the infobox? Once we have this list, I can add the template to MediaWiki:Newarticletext so all the fields will be preloaded into the article when they are created.

After that's done, I can get a bot to start creating stubs based on the music track list. It'll be easier for people to go in and edit any missing information in the infoboxes if all the fields are already listed on the page. -- 01:54, December 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * That Sounds good Q, although I don't know which categories we should add, I definitaly feel we should add some. 02:05, December 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think at the very least the song duration can go there and the sample (if we can decide on the legality of it), which can be either link to the file or we can embed a music player directly. I think the others (tempo, instruments, etc.) probably need descriptive sentences that go into the main body of the article.  As for which Mod composed it, can we determine that for enough of the music pieces to warrant a spot in the infobox? -- 08:53, December 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * Also the chronological song number that you mentioned would probably be a good fit in the infobox. -- 08:55, December 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * WOWOWOWOWOWOW!!! I wasn't expecting this much support, no not at all! This is fantastic. I have been away for a few days so thank God you guys didn't start without me! Anyway, I think we need to keep adding stuff to the infobox and Newarticletext (nat), as it comes to mind. Detailed sections, such as "instruments", should not be added to the nat because finding them out may be difficult. Instead of giving the music number its own "section" in the infobox, I think it should be in small text underneath the name parameter/title, like a caption maybe. No articles should be created until it is confirmed on how the articles will be created. Quarenon, the bot was a very great idea, but maybe it could be better if we instead use human labour. I am surprised upon how many users we got signed up to this, and many of them are probably looking for some way to help out. This is a great opportunity for users, old and new alike, to participate in a major project. I think the actual creation of 600+ articles is what has all those people above excited  Cheers,  08:58, December 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll throw in another parameter idea, if it makes any sense. I think adding the number of instruments used for different tracks might be interesting too. Since Runescape uses a format similar to MIDI/OGG Vorbis, people can just run it through an sound analyser software to quickly count the number of instruments. --DDot 10:42, December 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * I disagree. If we have that information, I think we would be better off putting the entire instrument list as a subsection in the article.  An instrument count could be given in the leading paragraph of that subsection.  Also, I don't think we can access the MIDI files (at least all the recent ones) in a way that would not spark a debate similar to the RSMV ones we've had.  -- 09:27, December 20, 2009 (UTC)

A few people did start without us on the Barbarianism page... 09:04, December 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for letting me know, I had to delete it so people don't get confused that we've started. Anyway, I'm just excited as you are We just need to sort out the nat and infobox, then it's full steam ahead! Cheers,  09:18, December 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * I've added the song duration and track number to the template. The track number appears in parenthesis in the table caption if provided, example:


 * Does that look OK? I did not find it appealing to put "Unknown" there if the number is not provided, so the parenthesis does not appear at all if the number is missing. -- 09:26, December 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * That looks fantastic. I might suggest removing the unlock hint parameter. The location says it all for simple-to-unlock songs. And for hard ones, it may require a few sentences in the article itself. Anyway, what do you think? Also, do you think it is a good idea to include the sample/audio in the actual infobox? So some form of Template:Listen at the bottom (but would be hidden if not included). And what is your opinion of maybe using manual labour instead. I know you probably want to use the bot, so just tell me if you do It's just that there seems to be a lot of eager people here. Cheers,  09:35, December 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm kind of neutral on the unlink hint, since even though it is usually redundant to the location, it's almost like the examine text for regular objects. The examine rarely gives you any extra info but we still bother to document it on all articles .  Secondly, I would support embedding the player in the infobox, if we clear up the legal issues.  It does not seem to me that everyone is on the same page with regards to copyright so I've refrained from adding sample files to the infobox.  As for the bot, I have no problem creating it, but if we want to let people start creating stubs when we're ready then that's fine.  I can always run it later to only create any articles that people missed or whatnot.  It will be more difficult to have a box fix any issues in existing articles, though.  -- 09:56, December 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * I strongly feel that the song track number should be changed to total amount of music tracks available at time of release, such as quests and their points. Take the update on the 15th of December as an example; it released a new quest as well as five new songs that can be found in bars. Now tell me, who are we to judge if the first of the five songs in the bar should be found first or last ? That is why I think the other, stricly more logical way is better.


 * Also, for the total number of song available at time of release, it should't be added until we have every song release date OR it just came out, that way we can be sure of what we add. I think this is necessary because Jagex often adds songs that are completely unannounced or unrelated to the released content (Take all those Scape songs for example). Think of all the pain we would have to go through if we were to find out at 600 song is song B and not A! 14:16, December 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * If multiple songs are released at once, then they could just be ordered alphabetically. -- 18:59, December 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * Right.... but that's not.. but and... but... fine, you win... - 19:19, December 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * Or we could specify that the track is the joint-xth song (e.g. the honky tonky songs would be joint 617th, as there were 8 (?) songs released in the same update, and the next song(s) to be released would be (joint) 626th, etc). 21:17, December 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * I like the alphabetical idea, however are we going to be able to get reliable dates (and thus numbers) for any of the early tracks? I wasn't playing in the Classic/transitional days so I don't know if those era tracks will lead to ambiguous numbering.  -- 09:17, December 20, 2009 (UTC)
 * Getting dates would be very hard, if not impossible. It was just an idea to add the parameter, just so we could add it to recent tracks where we do know the release date and number in chronological order. Cheers, 11:37, December 20, 2009 (UTC)

Maybe a place for a map showing where it can be unlocked? 21:13, December 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * A good idea, but I'm not sure about putting it in the infobox. Also with the music update where the songs don't get cut off and always finish first, it is hard to tell the boundaries. I want to start this very soon, so we just need to finalise the nat and the infobox, then we should start. Other things we should leave to later, such as the the audio files. Cheers, 00:25, December 20, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think those maps will be redundant to the ones given when you click on the linked location articles, unless you were thinking of highlighting the unlock/play boundary, which like Chicken7 suggests, seems quite difficult to do. -- 09:20, December 20, 2009 (UTC)

Bot Test Run
I did a test run of a bot that would create stub articles based on Music/track_list and came up with this log file. It successfully finds the 625 music tracks, but 36 of them failed to parse with a "Skipped due to possible ambiguity." message, which will have to be created by hand. Also there will probably be several articles that will have name conflicts (such as Castlewars and Camelot) and will also need to be dealt with manually. I can post a list of those whenever the bot is able to run. -- 23:31, December 20, 2009 (UTC)

For songs with the same names as currently existing articles, like Castlewars and Camelot; what should we call them? Would it be "Castlewars (song)" or "Castlewars (music)"? Or something else? 02:08, December 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * Technically, (song) would be incorrect since that implies that there is a vocal part, so either (music) or even (music track) would be better choices. -- 03:37, December 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * I think (music track) is better. Cheers,  07:23, December 21, 2009 (UTC)

I'm with Chicken. (music track) seems best. 18:40, December 21, 2009 (UTC)

All in order?
I think we may be ready to get this started now. Don't start yet guys until we are fully sure that everything is in order. I am about to make some final, finishing touches to the newarticletext along with the infobox. If there are any objections, speak now or forever hold your peace! Cheers, 07:22, December 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * Did you want composer to be a hidden row unless provided? I've changed it to be that way based on your edit summary.  -- 08:08, December 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * *nods* Thanks. Also, I think we should add the audio file to where the image would usually be in the infobox. So some form of Template:Listen underneath the title and above the table thing. Some sort of sound icon and then the media player underneath it. It should also be invisible if the parameter field is empty. Also, I can't get the midi player to work in Firefox; if you know how to help me, please post on my talk page. Cheers, 10:53, December 21, 2009 (UTC)

Ready yet ??
i think there are enough members,enough ideas and enough templates to start ! Are we going to start yet ?? I am bored, I really want to add articles and upload files ! Bahjy1 14:00, December 21, 2009 (UTC)

Describing the musical qualities themselves?
On each article, should we describe the music itself (e. g. the piece starts at an allegro tempo G major, frequent use of (so and so chord), what instruments play it, etc)? I think that would be really nice and would gather interest in the song itself, especially if we can't get the MIDI files on. Butterman62 (talk) 04:42, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

I think that, if that information can be gathered, it should definitely be included. I actually think that sort of thing was mentioned as part of the project's initial proposal. 05:18, December 22, 2009 (UTC)


 * That it was, Morian. It'd be great if we could get that info. Maybe put the instruments under its own heading, and the tempo, etc. under another (can't think of a title) Cheers, 07:31, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

Ringtones
Does anyone remember when Jagex launched the original Jagex Store (not the 2008 one; it must have been 2006-ish)? There were maybe 6 or 7 cellphone ringtones that players in the U.K. could buy, and each of them was also an in-game song. The only ones I can remember were Sea Shanty, the RuneScape theme (I guess you would call it Scape Original now), and one of the "Attacks" (I think). If anyone knows, it would be interesting to put this info in the songs' articles. I've tried looking it up, but Jagex has buried the original store pretty well. A lot of people didn't know it existed, even at the time. 05:18, December 22, 2009 (UTC)


 * I remember. It had Sea Shanty, Attack1 (maybe a different Attack), Scape Original (the first main screen theme), Scape Main (the current one of the time; the current one now is Scape Theme). I actually bought Scape Main, but I haven't a clue if I still have it or the phone. I'll have a look around. 19:18, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

Regional music navboxes??
Should navboxes be made so that (for example) all the music tracks that play in the land of snow are grouped together?? 09:26, December 22, 2009 (UTC)


 * I heard User:Rwojy was up to something so I didn't worry. Also, are we include Template:Music in the articles? I don't think we should, because if we do get regional navboxes, it could get squishy at the bottom. Also, it adds the tracks to Category:Music and we already got Category:Music tracks. CHeers, 09:30, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

Infobox Messed Up?
Whenever I'm using template:Infobox Music, the page redirects to Null and Void (and if you put the original template in your page, the page is full of info. from Null and Void). Help? 16:23, December 22, 2009 (UTC)


 * Works now, I assume? -- 19:08, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

Sorry for any inconvenience. All this was my fault. I think it's all fixed now, but at the time I didn't know much about creating articles (only about editing them). I used the templates to create new articles and didn't read the signs. So I hope it all works now. Ryxyle 20:01, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

Don't sweat it Ryxyle. It took me a long time to figure out how templates (and most of the Wiki's other tools >_>) worked. I just un-moved the page and re-created Null and Void with the information you put in, and everything's working alright now. 22:09, December 22, 2009 (UTC)


 * That's fine mate. I noticed you accidentally did it with Template:Newpage music as well. I use to do it too. >_> I better protect the infobox anyway, it is going to be used on over 600 articles. Cheers, 01:06, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

Unlock hint tense
There are two possible tenses when viewing the unlock hint: "This track unlocks at ..." and "This track was unlocked at ...". I've seen both being used in articles, but I think we should stay consistent and only use the first tense, which is shown when you haven't unlocked the track yet. -- 22:16, December 22, 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree. We should assume that the player reading the article hasn't unlocked the music track and is looking for details on how to do so. 22:36, December 22, 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with the first tense. I have already been modifying the articles when I see them like that. Cheers, 01:02, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

Template
Should we make a template for the music tracks? I think it would make navigation easier, but the problem is that the template would be incredibly huge... 22:36, December 22, 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. We would perhaps use a "show/hide" use. I think it's possible to do a double, one inside of another show hide. An idea may be to group them by areas, or by alphabetical order. 22:38, December 22, 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, hm... it seems that we already have a template. 23:46, December 22, 2009 (UTC)
 * It is still missing the pay-to-play music section. Someone with a bot should try to make the list cuz its loooong. I've already kinda started but psycho robot told me to wait for someone with a bot to do it, so I shoved it in my sandbox. 00:50, December 23, 2009 (UTC)
 * We should probably switch those lists to categories once we have all the articles. The F2P/P2P categories can be automatically added by the music infobox based on the member parameter.  -- 03:23, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

Release Dates
Where can we find them? 01:09, December 23, 2009 (UTC)
 * A good tip may be to find the date of the update associated with them. A music track in God Wars most likely was released when God Wars was released. This isn't always that reliable though, for some releases later on. 01:20, December 23, 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah also, i think we should figure a guideline for answering the infobox questions. I've seen a wide variety of answers which should be figured out. (Like in the skills section, i've seen links to the quest, the long list of skills needed, and also the skills with the items needed.) 02:37, December 23, 2009 (UTC)
 * Muzzy's way is currently the only method we have of obtaining release dates, sadly. Cheers, 02:48, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

Might I suggest editing the template so that if there is no date specified, it adds the page into Category:Music Tracks needing release date or something similar ? 17:12, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

Number
Okay, so I need confirmation, should I add the number in alphabetical order or in equal place X if there are more than one tracks released on the same date?

17:08, December 23, 2009 (UTC)
 * Alphabetical. 10:30, December 30, 2009 (UTC)

Downloaded Music
I found a RuneScape fansite a while back that has RS music tracks available for download. They became unable to record new music when a newer RS client was released, and only have the music tracks up to some point in 2006. This might save alot of recording time, but I was gonna ask permission before making links to the site, and see if using other sites' music recordings/downloads was allowable.--Anthony13579 19:23, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

I think this website can help in some way:

http://forums.ffshrine.org/archive/index.php/t-36052.html

Someone check it out and reply!!


 * As long as it contains no malware, I'm fine with the sample tracks being used. 18:47, December 29, 2009 (UTC)

http://www.runetower.com/musicguide.php

Well there's the site then--Anthony13579 20:59, December 30, 2009 (UTC)

rules and parameters
i think we need a set of 'rules' or 'parameters' that has consistently with all music articles. like a set template page for music witch could also help if a bot were to create pages with the 'page template' that can be edited and expanded on by editors. this could help in the long run and have less stress on editors. one rule could be is that all music pages like Norse Code has the music footer and the incomplete header and 'music' and 'music tracks' Categories and instruments section with full a 'music infobox' weather fully filled out or not. does any one else agree? 21:40, December 23, 2009 (UTC)
 * Such a bot is available but put on hold, see Template Parameters and Bot Test Run above. Chicken7, do we want to start bot creating articles? -- 13:18, December 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * Here's the sample stub article. I'll add the music template into Template:Newpage music but are we going ahead with putting instrument lists into each article?  -- 13:30, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

Categories
I propose we do not add Category:Music to every article. There are 650+ music tracks, and we do not want to bombard the neatness of the music category. We already have Category:Music tracks. The problem: Template:Music automatically adds the category. I don't think we should add that template either. Just my honest opinion. What are yours? Cheers, 10:37, December 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree. We can just leave the track pages in Category:Music tracks and make that a subcategory of Category:Music (which it is already). If the infobox is the main adder of Cat:Music to all the pages then thats easily dealt with. 16:58, December 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * I kind of like the navbox being down there, it does provide easy access to the various track lists and all. But, I do agree that Category:Music should be for the non-track music articles, and we can just add that category manually instead of via the navbox.  -- 09:46, December 31, 2009 (UTC)