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This thread was archived on 19 December 2014 by Haidro.
User:Sly Fawkes is currently an admin in the RSW Clan under the display name of Fly Fawkes. As of December 2014, he has been acting in a manner that is inconsistent with the clan chat's rules regarding respect and fair treatment of users. He has often ridiculed other clanmates and used offensive names for them when it was unnecessary. For example, User:Pancakebaby wanted to coordinate her time spent working at the citadel with when User:Oil4 would also be there. When she asked him about what plots he would be doing that day, Fly Fawkes called her a "twat" and accused her of begging for an avatar. Right after complaining about Pancake's inquiry, he proceeded to ask Oil4 if he had an avatar.

xduZZBW.png
That is just one example of the times that he has been hypocritical and it seems apparent that he has little concern for the majority of the clan. As the RSW Clan is intended to be a friendly place where even new players should be able to ask questions without fear of attack, it is recommended that Sly Fawkes/Fly Fawkes have his adminship be reviewed so as to ensure that the environment remains one which doesn't make everyone else's gaming experience uncomfortable. --Wafflebb (talk) 22:38, December 18, 2014 (UTC)

Discussion

All that image tells me is that Pancake was begging for an avatar which our policy clearly forbids. Ancient talisman Oil4 Talk 22:40, December 18, 2014 (UTC)

This image isn't even the whole conversation. [1] Pink Floyd Talk page Vandalize my sig
Guestbook My blatant violations of AGF
Oil4 I made this 22:46, December 18, 2014 (UTC)
The primary rule for clanmates regarding the avatar is "Don't antagonise or pester wardens about the avatar." All that this conversation entailed was Pancake wanting to know where the avatar was going to be. The antagonism came from Oil4 and Fly Fawkes when they accused her of breaking that rule, instead of adhering to the guideline which states "Help out other clanmates - If you have an avatar summoned, it is your responibility [sic] to let people know where you are with the avatar. If a number of clanmates (for example, at least 3) want you somewhere so they can group skill together with the higher 6% boost, be receptive to their requests and if possible do so - use common sense." Accusing people of rulebreaking for wanting to know where a warden has plans to take one of the clan's avatars does not agree with the spirit of the user treatment policy. --Wafflebb (talk) 23:01, December 18, 2014 (UTC)
Ponies are indeed [sic] and also rad as hell Lily of the valley ThePsionic White Rabbit 23:12, December 18, 2014 (UTC)

There is no discussion section, how do I discuss this. I am so confused. Sly Fawkes (talk) 22:41, December 18, 2014 (UTC)

Oh, problem solved, let the discussion begin. Sly Fawkes (talk) 22:54, December 18, 2014 (UTC)

Lol [1] Pink Floyd Talk page Vandalize my sig
Guestbook My blatant violations of AGF
Oil4 I made this 22:42, December 18, 2014 (UTC)

Fly isn't a problem in this snippet, Pancake is the only one going against the rules here. also ryan baker please Lily of the valley ThePsionic White Rabbit 22:43, December 18, 2014 (UTC)

Forgot to Oppose Lily of the valley ThePsionic White Rabbit 22:49, December 18, 2014 (UTC)
Regarding your edit, I see nothing that even slightly convinces me to change my mind. Hell, the second image doesn't add anything to the discussion. Lily of the valley ThePsionic White Rabbit 22:53, December 18, 2014 (UTC)
The first image clearly shows Pancake begging, there's no other way I can put it. Lily of the valley ThePsionic White Rabbit 22:55, December 18, 2014 (UTC)
Oh and I love talking to myself. Lily of the valley ThePsionic White Rabbit 22:56, December 18, 2014 (UTC)
For Fly Fawkes, asking whether an avatar out and asking a warden to bring an avatar out is acceptable, but asking whether a clanmate will do minions is against the rules and people who ask such questions will be forbidden from the clan.
[2]
--Wafflebb (talk) 23:25, December 18, 2014 (UTC)
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Lily of the valley ThePsionic White Rabbit 23:36, December 18, 2014 (UTC)
(Translation: "I haven't seen a single argument here yet why Fawkes should be de-ranked.") Lily of the valley ThePsionic White Rabbit 23:38, December 18, 2014 (UTC)
Fawkes asks once. You and Pancake asked multiple times, despite being asked to stop. That is the difference. Ancient talisman Oil4 Talk 23:43, December 18, 2014 (UTC)
In this case I was joking with oil, since he had already summoned an avatar. If you wouldn't take this out of context and only use a small section of an entire conversation, misunderstandings would not occur. From what the picture shows is that you are changing situations to support your own agenda. Sly Fawkes (talk) 23:49, December 18, 2014 (UTC)

I don't see any instance of begging in this screenshot, but I do see uncivil behavior from multiple people, not just Fawkes. While I don't approve of Sly's behavior, I don't think anything that's happened here is worthy of de-ranking. Had he unfairly kicked or banned a clan member, it would be a different story. Let's just let this serve as a RS:UTP reminder for everyone in the cc. Christine 22:47, December 18, 2014 (UTC)

Are you serious? Or are you only saying this because you are friends with Pancakebaby? Because it is very clear from that image that she was begging for the avatar. Mind you, this was not the first time - this had been going on for many minutes before that screenshot. Wafflebaby only screenshotted a small section of the conversation. I do not have screenshots but other people on at the time can confirm. Ancient talisman Oil4 Talk 22:50, December 18, 2014 (UTC)
Asking if you'd be around the citadel to use the avatar can't be considered "begging". ɳex undique 22:54, December 18, 2014 (UTC)
No, I am saying this because it's reasonable. Asking if you planned to take out the avatar is in no way harassing you to take the avatar out immediately, or even at all. If she wanted to plan her training/aura use around the avatar, then there's nothing wrong with that. All you had to do was so no, and she would have used her aura during regular training. Regardless, calling someone a twat isn't acceptable. The beginning of the convo has been posted and it doesn't change my opinion that there wasn't any begging or harassing there. Christine 22:57, December 18, 2014 (UTC)
[[Forum:Ban Mol Man for calling me a retard]] Lily of the valley ThePsionic White Rabbit 22:58, December 18, 2014 (UTC)
They had begged for the avatar multiple times before. I asked them to stop it. What are you making such a big deal about? Ancient talisman Oil4 Talk 23:01, December 18, 2014 (UTC)

Oppose - Does this remind anyone of anything? This thread is ridiculous; it is an already disruptive user trying to stir up more conflict within the wiki. At least it worked to a point. [1] Pink Floyd Talk page Vandalize my sig
Guestbook My blatant violations of AGF
Oil4 I made this 22:51, December 18, 2014 (UTC)

The beginning of the conversation was captured by User:Pancakebaby dGJ1pAh.png
We can see that no point did Pancake make any requests even for the avatar, much less the "begging" that Fly Fawkes accused her of. As far as I know, the point of the Clan Chat is communicating things such as "what are you going to do later?", which is what her inquiry amounted to. --Wafflebb (talk) 22:51, December 18, 2014 (UTC)

You are just flat out lying here. The two of you HAD asked me before about the avatar. Ancient talisman Oil4 Talk 23:15, December 18, 2014 (UTC)
If it helps, I can vouch for that, having scrolled up. [1] Pink Floyd Talk page Vandalize my sig
Guestbook My blatant violations of AGF
Oil4 I made this 23:18, December 18, 2014 (UTC)
And after the incident in those screenshots waffle said something along the lines of "you have to trick people to get what you want from them" to which pancake agreed and said that she was attempting to do so. Sly Fawkes (talk) 23:28, December 18, 2014 (UTC)
And it is unfortunate indeed when clanmates are afraid of asking yes or no questions for fear of discipline under a vague interpretation of the rules. Wardens are chosen by consensus and agree to keep clanmates informed of where any summoned avatar will be, as per the warden guidelines. I think that that is an inefficient use of shared clan resources, particularly when such clanmates are attempting to help meet upkeep of the citadel. Asking "Will you have an avatar at the citadel today?" and then asking "Will you be at minions?" two hours later does not meet any definition I know of of antagonising or pestering. Telling people to stop breaking rules that don't exist does violate fair treatment of users. --Wafflebb (talk) 23:38, December 18, 2014 (UTC)
"Wardens are chosen by consensus" that's actually not true, but that's beside the point. The problem, as I have stated 1000 times before, is not that someone asked where the avatar is/was/would be. That's fine. The problem is repeated hassling, even after being asked to stop, and even trying to trick people. If anyone's breaking RS:UTP here it's Pancake. Ancient talisman Oil4 Talk 23:54, December 18, 2014 (UTC)
it was not two hours later when she asked, as you said yourself that the first screenshot is the end of the conversation and the second is the beginning, so unless that entire conversation took 2 hours (which it didn't) you are lying and conjuring up false evidence in order to make unsubstantiated claims. Sly Fawkes (talk) 23:56, December 18, 2014 (UTC)
When Oil4 says she asked before, it is true. She asked around the time of the 2100 cache whether any of the avatars would be at the citadel. Christine has often gone to the citadel to summon an avatar to provide clanmates, including Pancakebaby and myself, with the skilling boost. Oil4 indicated that an avatar would be there, but only specified that it would be sometime between then and reset. Later, the conversation shown in the images occurred, where allegations were made of "begging" when asking for more specific information over what skilling plots should be used to be within range of the avatar's 6% boost. Insults were hurled, and Pancakebaby was still never told where the avatar would be. If no mistreatment occurs to the other player and tricking them is required to gain information that is being willfully deprived of them, that will occur. --Wafflebb (talk) 00:06, December 19, 2014 (UTC)

Strong Support - As per Christine's comment above, incivility is not a trait that is desired in any clan member, much less an admin. Rule 1 of the clan is "All users must abide by the Rules of RuneScape with civility, respect and fairness, without questions or exceptions." Coming into the chat day after day hurling insults does not fit under this rule. Admins should not be above the rules of the clan. --Wafflebb (talk) 22:55, December 18, 2014 (UTC)

Well yeah, obviously you strongly support it, you made the darn thread Lily of the valley ThePsionic White Rabbit 22:57, December 18, 2014 (UTC)
Why don't you read [[RuneScape:Clan_Chat/Clan_Avatar#Clanmates_2|the rest of the rules as well]]? Ancient talisman Oil4 Talk 22:58, December 18, 2014 (UTC)

[3]

hmm, I wasn't a dick in this screenshot, I need to try harder. Sly Fawkes (talk) 23:00, December 18, 2014 (UTC)
Tfw supporting your own thread [1] Pink Floyd Talk page Vandalize my sig
Guestbook My blatant violations of AGF
Oil4 I made this 23:01, December 18, 2014 (UTC)

Uh - I don't see any begging, nor do I see a breach of policy regarding admin behavior. All I see is a misunderstanding due to a poorly worded sentence or two that has been blown way out of proportion (and Ryan Baker making fat jokes as usual). The conduct in this YG thread is more appalling than the screenshots. User:Urbancowgurl777/Signature 23:04, December 18, 2014 (UTC)

Oppose - One instance of behavior does not make a case. Fawkes has little problems with other users in the chat, so I suggest you two just add him to your ignore lists. It would make everyone happier.

Also, Fawkes wasn't being hypocritical when he asked about the avatar. He was being ironic. Or, if we're in a good-faithed, unbeknownsted-to-fawkes mood, he was asking so he could get one himself. He is a warden himself, after all. MolMan 23:17, December 18, 2014 (UTC)

Oppose - While in my opinion his responses were questionable, I'm not keen on the idea deranking solely on that; imo it would have to be more than one to come to the conclusion that a deranking is necessary. Ozank Cx 23:25, December 18, 2014 (UTC)

Oppose - Just one display of such behaviour doesn't necessarily warrant a rank reviewing, or a de-ranking for that matter. Fawkes is not ban. -- Spined helm SpineTalkBook of knowledge 23:32, December 18, 2014 (UTC)

As mentioned in the top of the thread, Pancakebaby is not the only user he has harassed, nor is this something that started this month. He has been abusive for a while, and some had called him out on his behavior. His response has been nothing but sarcasm and reeks of the kind of supercilious attitude that indicates that he doesn't care whom he hurts as long as he can have the last laugh. --Wafflebb (talk) 23:42, December 18, 2014 (UTC)
su·per·cil·ious adjective \ˌsü-pər-ˈsi-lē-əs, -ˈsil-yəs\
having or showing the proud and unpleasant attitude of people who think that they are better or more important than other people
For anyone else who didn't know the word. Source [4] Ancient talisman Oil4 Talk 23:51, December 18, 2014 (UTC)
fer·ga·li·cious adjective \ fər-geh-li-sēəs\
makes the boys go loco
Lily of the valley ThePsionic White Rabbit 23:53, December 18, 2014 (UTC)
That helps...how? The amount of users making jokes on this thread, no matter if this thread has a snowball's chance in Hell of doing anything at all or not, is not what I want to see on the wiki. 7kyt1iT.gif --WINE OF GOOD HEALTH (Actually Stinko) 00:01, December 19, 2014 (UTC)
Spine, that is the nicest thing you gave ever said to me, I love you. Sly Fawkes (talk) 00:02, December 19, 2014 (UTC)
Stinko, you have seen nothing Ancient talisman Oil4 Talk 00:05, December 19, 2014 (UTC)
Damnit Oil, I wanted to do that Lily of the valley ThePsionic White Rabbit 00:07, December 19, 2014 (UTC)

Comment - Apart from all the drama here, I would like to see something from the hand of Pancake rather than Waffle. Lily of the valley ThePsionic White Rabbit 00:09, December 19, 2014 (UTC)

Oppose - I don't see anything from the evidence provided that suggests a demotion is necessary. Given the overall lack of evidence of any policy breaches, I'd also call for this to be closed before it becomes yet another thread no one takes seriously. User:Cqm/Signature

User treatment policy dictates that "No user deserves to be treated with disrespect, no matter the situation." How is attacking a clanmate for asking a question not disrespect? Oil4, Psionic, and Fawkes act as though they can just make up rules and call us names for calling them out on it. If the ranking members of this clan have no respect for their clanmates, then Pancake and I will be finding a different clan to join. Oil4 said on a different page that if we feel like we are being abused, to make a thread about it. We showed that when we try to talk in the clan chat, we get attacked. We are asking for that to be rectified and that such changes in adminship be done as to be necessary. I don't know of a better manner to voice my concerns. --Wafflebb (talk) 01:11, December 19, 2014 (UTC)
Personally, I find all the hassle avatars cause to be largely pointless and in almost every case it gets blown far out of proportion. Nonetheless, you've presented bias evidence, as the above discussion has shown, and this is looking increasingly more like a witch hunt than a genuine discussion over a clan chat administrator's conduct. User:Cqm/Signature

Oppose - Get rekt Kid - User:Lashazior 04:27, December 19, 2014 (UTC)

That is absolutely not tolerated here. This is a serious discussion and your input is extremely unnecessary and rude. Haidro (talk) 07:07, December 19, 2014 (UTC)

Request for closure - Per RS:SNOW. This thread will accomplish nothing other than a pompous display of trolling, putting wikians at each others' throats. It might even spawn other useless threads that take ages and achieve no consensus, like another thread akin to this one did. As the only supporter of this thread is a user whose entire argument has been destroyed, I ask that, since the outcome is predictable, we skip this phase entirely, and close this thread for good. [1] Pink Floyd Talk page Vandalize my sig
Guestbook My blatant violations of AGF
Oil4 I made this 01:05, December 19, 2014 (UTC)

Strong Oppose - This is ridiculous. Waffle, Pancake...stop begging for the avatar. You're ticking people off. There's nothing wrong with asking if it's out, but leave it at that. If you do so repeatedly and regularly or try to disguise your begging by phrasing it differently, you don't get to complain about your hurt feelings when the people you've ticked off make their anger known. Farming-icon Ms ZuZu Talk Quest icon fixed 06:48, December 19, 2014 (UTC)

Closed - As this thread's intention is to de-rank Fawkes, and not to prove who's right and who's wrong, I've decided to close this thread not entirely because of RS:SNOW, but because it has gotten out of hand (and it will continue to do so). Since the thread has opened, there has already been a lot of discussion on S:C and in the Clan Chat. There are users who have gone aggressive against one another, arguing even on the most minuscule points (EG: Did waffle ask for an avatar 2 hours before or not?). I had earlier said in S:C that I wasn't planning on closing this thread because Waffle should at least have a week to say his arguments, but people are now mistreating him, so I might as well prevent that as best as I can.

It's also obvious that this thread is becoming a joke in some people's eyes (very evident at Lashazior's comment), and I want to stop that right here. Please remember, especially those Clan members that only come to the Yew Grove for Clan matters, that the Yew Grove is a serious place for discussion.

I'd also like to remind everyone that the Clan Avatar is not a big deal. I'm not saying the Clan Avatar is the basis of this thread, and I'm not targeting anyone specifically, but come on guys, it's 3/6% extra experience. Let's be reasonable people here. Haidro (talk) 07:07, December 19, 2014 (UTC)

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