Forum:How Jagex contacted the FO Wiki

Forums: Yew Grove > How Jagex contacted the FO Wiki

I've seen some confusion as to how the FunOrb wiki was contacted and got itself listed on the "approved fansites" list. I just thought I'd clear it up.

• Quartic, the only active bureaucrat, was contacted first, via RuneScape/FunOrb inbox. I was contacted second, after Quartic didn't reply. This suggests this wiki would be contacted via Azaz, Dtm, or some other active 'crat. Or possibly me, given that they already know me.

• I don't know if our contact resulted in our being listed. The listing happened some considerable time after the contact. Draw your own conclusions.

• They asked for a middle-man to go through. I won't go into how we communicate, but it's only Quartic and I that can do it. I can assure you that they would not approve of allowing everyone in the community to have the ability to use this contact method.

Questions, comments, etc. JalYt-Xil-Vimescarrot 19:47, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, if they don't wont want to talk to us as a community, more power to them. Doucher4000^******r4000 19:49, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Is it possible they've contacted someone here who is no longer active, such as through a personal email account? Do all bureaucrats have access to the inbox? Horsehead ^Talk 19:54, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Eh? First contact was through the RuneScape inbox, not email. Yes, it's possible they contacted Merovingian, Eucarya, or something. But they chose the active bureaucrat on the FunOrb wiki, not the founder. Mind you, Quartic is a player moderator - that may have influenced them. Eucarya is, too. Someone get him to check his inbox. =p

There are only two bureaucrats, and we can both access the Jagex communication method. Whether the others will, if and when they get made, remains to be seen. JalYt-Xil-Vimescarrot 19:56, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Why can't Jagex simply speak to us here? We're a community. I don't want to elect some sort of representative. If they won't speak to us as a whole, then I don't want to speak to them. ~  Sentry Telos ^Talk  05:14, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

I can see why they want there to be only one or two people who can actually contact them, if we opened it to the entire wiki they would be bombarded with junk, and thats what the forums are for. I personally see no violation of AEAE if we put forward a spokes person. All this person would do would be to relay the messages jagex has sent to a YG thread, then relay the reply when consensus has been reached on what the reply should be. However if the reason they want to talk to a limited few is to do with information containment, then I don't see how we can get around it. --Serenity1137 09:01, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Can't we just get you vimes, or azaz or someone to contact them. How exactly can we speak to them as a community?--Joe Click Here for Awesomeness 13:54, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Azaz cannot contact them - may I ask what makes you think he can? I have contact only with the FunOrb community staff, so I wouldn't be able to do anything regarding RuneScape. JalYt-Xil-Vimescarrot 15:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Having only a specific group of people have that information is going against everything the wiki stands for. This "Elite Group" would get to knoweverything and everyone else is deemed "unworthy" and is to be left in the shadows? Doucher4000^******r4000 15:44, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

No. Why would they keep the information to themselves? What do you think Jagex tells us? JalYt-Xil-Vimescarrot 16:10, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok, how bout, there are one or two people who act as representatives of the wiki that speak with Jagex, and the representatives only tell Jagex what the community decides upon, and they must tell what Jagex said to the community. This is simply for the convinience of Jagex. They only want to speak to one or two people. Not 500. Its like being an administrator. Does having extra powers normal users don't violate AEAE? --— ^En_ig^ma 16:19, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Edit Conflict - Comment - I think we are blowing this "We want Jagex to contact us" thing outta proportion. As Vimes said (perhaps outta context), they weren't looking for a relationship, they just somehow got one. A few users exchanged some small talk via the RuneScape inbox and the FunOrb Wiki was on the list. I'm not sure if the FunOrb Wiki discussed being on this list as much as we have though, and I highly doubt they have since. It's great they are on there, but what real advantage has it brought them. Perhaps more audience and the right to speak about it but us complaining and hoping and trying and wishing for them to come to us looks so bad (to me anyways if I worked for Jagex). It's like we are begging or looking for attention and in reality I think that just labels us to Jagex as, well, stuck up. I think the best thing we can do now is to just drop the whole thing and forget they are even teaming with fansites. If they do make an attempt to contact us well than all the power to them but sitting here pondering why they haven't is just getting us nowhere fast and building us a bad reputation. I posted that screenie on the other forum as a sort of heads up, not to discuss how we can build a relationship with them so we can avoid not worrying about the potential risk. Jagex will contact us if and when they want to and how they want to. It's up to us at that point to decide what we will do but until than, what exactly is the purpose in making these choices now?

Bonziiznob ^Talk

16:21, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Confused!

they weren't looking for a relationship, they just somehow got one

"They" being the FO wiki? If not, whom?

Yes, the FO Wiki. You weren't seeking a relationship or asking for attention as we are here. They just happened to contact you, right?

Bonziiznob ^Talk

19:18, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

That's right. JalYt-Xil-Vimescarrot 11:31, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

A few users exchanged some small talk via the RuneScape inbox and the FunOrb Wiki was on the list.

It wasn't "small talk"; we were contacted by Jagex with the explicit intention of forming a working relationship with the wiki.

Yes, but it's still relatively small compared to what hypothetical situations some of the users here are suggesting Jagex may or may not do to contact us. It was small talk between a couple users, not the entire community.

Bonziiznob ^Talk

19:18, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

I just meant it wasn't small talk. JalYt-Xil-Vimescarrot 20:00, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, if you want to put it with a literal defintion than okay...I'm human, I don't have a thesarus in my head for words that might be similar to small talk, so, perhaps I'll say a small convo?

Bonziiznob ^Talk

22:36, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

As for the rest - No, we didn't discuss the Jagex-contact thing on-site as much as you have, but I'm not so convinced that it's as significant as you make out. And we have no advantages (other than this), but that's mostly because we have no community. You could use it a lot more than the FunOrb wiki can. JalYt-Xil-Vimescarrot 16:32, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

For the record, Euc isn't a mod anymore. I talked to him ingame a few months ago.

InstantWinston^{old edits | new edits}

16:51, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment - "They asked for a middle-man to go through"! Looks like I was right after all. Hurston ^{(T # C)} 09:54, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

---

Proposal If as a community we can come up with a single person who is voted as 'point of contact', I'm currently still a player mod and am probably able to get Jagex to begin the process of approval. I don't think I can do it without a name, but I suppose I could try. I'm not a 'crat or anything here, so am not recommending or offering myself up for it. King Runite1 02:31, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Neutral - I would prefer a bureacrat (or a sysop) who is also a player moderator to be nominated as a "point of contact". This is because this user has the trust of the Wiki (voted by the community), and "chosen specifically by Jagex staff" (as a p-mod). Do we have a bureaucrat who fits these criteria?   az ^talk   04:17, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Dragon Powers38 ^おはようヾ(´･ω･｀) 04:21, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Powers.   az ^talk   04:25, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Support voted middle man - The fact that Jagex has chosen a player as a mod is irrelevant for our voting purposes. Thats like saying a police officer is the best choice to present something to congress. If we vote someone in, that should be good enough for us and Jagex. Everyone has the same ingame message box. TEbuddy 04:28, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, maybe a mod has a better chance than a regular player, but that's what I think only. Dr5ag2on1 seems like a good choice since he is a b'crat and a p-mod. Powers38 ^おはようヾ(´･ω･｀) 04:31, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

The RuneScape Wiki is not based offsite. How much Jagex trusts a given Wikian should be irrelevant to us. I do not want to see the false authority of ingame player moderators transferred to the RuneScape Wiki. It doesn't reflect how much we as a community trust a given editor, which should be the criteria for our decision. This is not to say that Dr5ag2on1 would be a bad choice, I would argue the opposite. I am just saying that player moderator status should be neither a requirement nor an advantage for our point of contact, should we choose to create one. Dtm142 17:29, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I'd be OK with it if everyone else is.

1. REDIRECT User:Laser Dragon 06:28, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Oppose Nothing personal against Dr5ag2on1, because I think he would be a fine person for this role. But I am against the role itself being created, and further against a P-mod being a requirement if the first part passes anyway. If we choose to go this route, being a P-mod should be irrelevant to whether or not the person suits our needs here.

oppose withdrawn--Degenret01 02:28, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - Per Degenret and RS:AEAE. Selecting someone to be a "middle-man" and talk to Jagex for all of us? There is no such person that could express all the opinions of the whole community. The whole idea goes against everything the Wiki stands for. Doucher4000^******r4000 03:04, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

AEAE is not relevant to this discussion. Furthermore, no one person would be expressing the opinions of the whole community. And equality isn't "everything" we stand for - in fact it's pretty far from being the primary, er, thing. We stand for gethering information about RuneScape. JalYt-Xil-Vimescarrot 11:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Question - Why are we trying hard to be chosen to be in one of the fan site list? Powers38 ^おはようヾ(´･ω･｀) 03:08, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment - I was under the impression that it partly had to do with the screenshot in this topic -- that mentioning non-approved fansites in the game might be "risky" as far as the rules are concerned. --Quarenon  _Talk 03:19, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Support - The whole point of this is to allow people to talk about the wiki in-game without getting banned. If that means doing things the Jagex way, then so be it. The wiki is really not going to be hurt in any way because we have a spokesperson for the wiki, especially as it is a trusted 'crat. Nothing is going to happen to the wiki without the community saying so, so what on earth is the problem? Hurston ^{(T # C)} 08:59, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Support - Per Hurston.  @Gaz#7521 11:02, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Support - Per Gaz. - TehKittyCat (talk) 11:55, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Support - Per Hurston. However, people keep bringing up that having one person speaking for the whole community is a violation of AEAE. I feel that we aren't really going nowhere because I remember that we did ask dragon to speak for us, but was turned down because it was violating AEAE, but isn't a community needed to make a consensus to choose one person? So I think that Community = Consensus. Consensus reached an agreement of choosing one person = That specific person. :| Powers38 ^おはようヾ(´･ω･｀) 12:05, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

AEAE means that no one person has the right to overturn anothers' opinion becaause of his adminship, or anything similar. So as you say, AEAE doesn't apply...You may as well never make another admin ever again. It violates AEAE in the same way. JalYt-Xil-Vimescarrot 12:09, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Pending - I have a few serious concerns related to creating a liason between our website and Jagex:

1. Will a relationship with Jagex give them authority or editorial control over our site's content? It could lead to coercive measures requiring us to hide information related to moderator confidentiality or leaked updates, for example. If this is the case, we may want to reconsider trying to get Jagex to contact us. Our rights to be free from censorship may be more important than being able to discuss the wiki ingame.

2. I am strongly opposed to appointing a single person to represent our wiki. Should something happen to them such as inactivity or even a real world tragedy, we would lack backup. It is also essential to have at least two liasons so that they can check each others' actions. One liason may be appropriate for normal fansites that have a single owner, but a wiki such as this one is different in that respect. We already have the RuneScape:Contact us page which lists the active bureaucrats and how to contact them. I don't really see the need for anything else to be done other than perhaps adding the page to the sidebar so that a Jagex representative will see it.

Please discuss these issues, as I will not support unless they are resolved. Dtm142 18:27, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

I seriously doubt that we'd have any problems with censorship. If Jagex had any problems with our content, I think that they would simply not contact us in the first place. As for appointing a single person, we might be able to explain that a wiki is a group effort, and being in contact with multiple representatives would be ideal.

1. REDIRECT User:Laser Dragon 23:14, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

That seems reasonable enough. It worked for the FunOrb wiki to have more than one person communicate with Jagex. Dtm142 23:24, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Point 1: Jagex have already stated that they have no wish to affect the content of sites. Point 2: It just seems to be the way they want to do it. As long as it gets us off the banned list, then I think it is worth it. If the representative does intend to go inactive, perhaps they can organise with Jagex to hand over to someone else. If Jagex can agree to two reps, then all is well and good. Hurston ^{(T # C)} 08:21, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Support (neutral on pmod) - I feel a b'crat or sysop would be great as a point of contact. As a pmod myself, I can say that a pmod would probably have an advantage in intiating contact with Jagex. I also as fairly confident that they are fully willing to work with this site.

In regards to Dtm's points. Your first point about censorship is moot in my opinion. The wiki already has a number of pmods on the staff. It is also current policy for the player moderator page to not be overflowing with unsourced information as is. In any case, the pmods won't confirm rumors, and Jagex would have made it known already if they wished for rumors to be with-held.

I agree with the second point. We should have two reps. I don't know if we want more than that as it could prove cumbersome, but one is probably not a good idea. Randox^Talk 01:21, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

The RuneScape Wiki has no official policy regarding classified information. It was hotly debated in the past, but no policy was ever agreed upon. Although you are correct in saying that the community has high standards for verifability (resulting in the player moderator page being relatively free of confidential information), there is still no censorship in userspace or discussions since those areas don't require verifability. In fact, removing content from either of those areas is highly frowned upon as seen in two of our policies. Player moderators and Jagex do not have any editorial control over our site, and it is essential that it stays that way as we are an independent organization. As for designating a player moderator as a liason, I really think that we should let Jagex decide who to contact. Leave a few names as done here, then leave the rest to them. If they decide to contact only one person and they happen to be a player moderator, great. If they contact everyone on the list, that's fine too. There is no need for the community to pick one person out for Jagex. They may prefer player moderators, but that is up to them. Our role is only to provide them with users that are trusted by the wiki community, not to measure how much we think Jagex trusts them. Dtm142 02:50, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Don't forget that Jagex didn't contect one individual with the intent of using them as the middleman. They contacted him to ask who to use. So assuming they contact someone trustworthy (All of our bureaucrats are, I should hope), there won't be a problem with the who. JalYt-Xil-Vimescarrot 09:30, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

"In support" I support this position because the position would create an orderly way for the wiki to relay points to jagex without the unneeded hassle of constant spamming of topics being sent out to jagex. --Aaronpaul323 04:56, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, unless we get rid of the World of Warcraft ads (which I can't see Wikia helping us with) Jagex will not contact RS Wiki I believe. Swordmagic24 12:40, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Doesn't the FunOrb Wiki have the same types of ads, however? How come Jagex contacted them but not us? ~  Sentry Telos ^Talk  19:26, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, and just about any fansite has the same issue with ads. - TehKittyCat (talk) 22:10, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Support - Per all. — ^En_ig^ma 14:38, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

Request for consensus - This thread has kind of died, and the sooner we become trustfully recognized, the better. — ^En_ig^ma 14:38, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

There is no consensus yet and nothing can be done unless Jagex wants to recognize us. Andrew ^talk 18:15, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

There's really nothing to reach consensus on, really... Chaos Monk ^{Talk • Sign} 23:28, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

RSOF discussion

I have no idea how this fits into this discussion, but I think every opportunity we can to express the issues about how a website is selected should be done. Sorry if this is zombifying an older discussion, but I think it is appropriate to put this in here.

Regarding this discussion, see: http://forum.runescape.com/forums.ws?14,15,293,59239903,goto,104

I had the opportunity to respond to another player who asked why the RS wiki has not been included in the list of official fan websites. It certainly seems like we fit all of their criteria for inclusion by any yardstick that they can use, but yet we are consistently passed over.

I'd like to simply say "screw 'em", but in all honesty it would be nice to be recognized for what we as a RS Wiki community have put together over the years of effort to create everything that we have on this wiki. At the very least, I would like to see some sort of dialog with the RS Wiki community over what Jagex perceives to be issues with our website and why they don't want to include us on their list. If it violates our editorial policies and spirit of "anyone can edit", I'm not willing to compromise on that point, but smaller accommodations certainly could be made in a number of areas. I explicitly mentioned RWT advertising as something we, as a community, don't want to encourage and would like to take perhaps even more active steps on the issue.

I would like to encourage other players to make similar kinds of comments and perhaps put a "bug" into Jagex to get us eventually recognized. --Robert Horning 01:59, October 8, 2009 (UTC)

Support - Getting Jagex to finally recognize our above-average quality of information would be great. I think the only thing holding us back is some of our ads, but Wikia seems to take care of those thorns as they sprout. More editors are always good, although the potential new vandals are bad. It would be a trade-off, and would keep every admin on their toes to watch. Overall though, excellent idea, constant point bringing-up, passive yet effective. Chaos Monk ^{Talk • Sign} 02:40, October 8, 2009 (UTC)

Support - I certainly don't plan on bending over backwards for a company I've lost respect for, but the influx of editors we would experience could prove very beneficial. http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu33/Psycho_Robot/Sigs%20and%20Avatars/kitty.pngPsycho Robot talk 02:42, October 8, 2009 (UTC)

Comment - I already bugged them on the thread about it. We can't really go around asking people to promote us - but to get people to be more avare of the need to be recognised might work. Doucher4000^******r4000 03:42, October 8, 2009 (UTC)

Comment - http://forum.runescape.com/forums.ws?14,15,293,59239903,824,262844741,highlight,#824 I tried asking them awhile back and was ignored..I know others have been as well. I'm so sick and tired of them giving the same old "sorry, we can't discuss why a fan site isn't on the list of recognized sites but the list will continue to grow " answer. Andrew ^talk 03:53, October 8, 2009 (UTC)

Comment - I just posted this message on the fansite thread: "Despite there being numerous, comprehensive, high-quality wikis on RuneScape and other Jagex games, the FunOrb wiki is the only wiki to be on the approved list. What has the FunOrb wiki done correctly to recieve this honour??" [1] It is a dodgy and weasely way of hoping to get Jagex to spill the beans, but I felt that it was worth a shot. _{Evil Yanks} ^talk 04:59, October 8, 2009 (UTC)

Neutral - I don't know what I'm supporting I also posted on that thread, because the more support there is, the better. Cheers, Chicken7 ^>talk 07:30, October 8, 2009 (UTC)

Support - I really can not understand Jagex's problem. This wiki has proved to be safe, true and open for change if needed. If there's a new update, we are often one of the first fansites to have an article about it. What could they possibly not like about us? Oil4 ^Talk 18:25, October 8, 2009 (UTC)

I can think of a couple of problems from Jagex's perspective, including the issues of RWT websites and commentary about RWT that addresses potential ways that it happens. We've discussed censorship of wiki content that may have violated some sort of agreement with forum and player moderators, and that certainly has been a mixed bag of commentary on that topic. Perhaps that spooked Jagex a little bit that we would even consider some of that sort of content on this wiki. Sacrificing editorial neutrality on the altar of getting better relations with Jagex is something that I don't want to do, but I am willing to listen to legitimate criticism that Jagex may have about this site. This issue of "we can't discuss why a fan site isn't on the list of recognized sites" is to me utter BS. I'm not saying that meeting all of Jagex criteria, but if there are some legitimate concerns that Jagex has about some kinds of content, copyright violations, or individual player actions, those are issues that I do believe can be discussed in a public forum.

Letting the player community know that certain kinds of behavior such as openly discussing software like Moparscape and going into the details of the user client messaging protocol are things they would rather not have discussed. That is an example of perhaps something that may be added to the RS wiki in the future that may discourage Jagex from having this website listed within official Jagex web pages as an example of a "good" fan website. Unfortunately, Jagex isn't stating that either.

Communication is the key here, and unfortunately Jagex doesn't want to communicate. That is what I find unfortunate. --Robert Horning 21:13, October 8, 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but don't all the other websites have RWT links too? You even (rightly) stated on that thread that there are RWT ads above their games and in their update messages!

You have a point about Moparscape, RWT and such: Jagex indeed might (or should I say 'do') not like us discussing that so easily/freely: however, I personally am not willing to 'lose' our NPOV just to be recognised by Jagex - it would be against one of our core policies.

I think it's up to Jagex to contact us and tell us exactly what they want us to do - which will take a long while. Oil4 ^Talk 21:20, October 8, 2009 (UTC)

Comment - Directly insulting Jagex is never a good way on encouraging them to partner with us. I noticed that some wikians have posted on the Fansite support thread, leaving hostile messages to Jagex since they have not added us to the list. It is never necessary to include your own personal, negative opinion on the matter with a sly side remark like: "this is not surprising behavior for Jagex". This is destructive behaviour, both lowering Jagex's respect for us and decreasing our chances of Jagex contacting us. _{Evil Yanks} ^talk 05:23, October 9, 2009 (UTC)