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Forums: Yew Grove > I deleted a "picture" of the PMod Centre
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This thread was archived on 7 April 2009 by Soldier 1033.

Someone uploaded a picture claiming it was the PMod Centre and added it to the Player Moderator Centre article. My delete reason stated that we shouldn't have confidential information on this wiki, but I forgot to mention that there is no way to prove whether or not the picture is real. Keep in mind that that respecting classified info discussion never reached a consensus, so my deletion reason can be based off of the fact that no public source can be cited.

I'm already being accused of censorship and fascism, so rather than let this turn into a vote for undeletion or a "desysopping Soldier 1033 for power abuse" I'm creating this topic to let the community decide whether or not my decision to delete the picture was right.

Andrew talk 04:53, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

He reuploaded it here, [Image:Player Moderator Centre.jpg]. And to prove whether or not it is real, ask one of the mods (Chia, Pika, Dragon). C.ChiamTalk 04:59, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm keeping it deleted until this discussion can reach a consensus. Call it censorship if you want. I call it a picture that could be a fake and there is no way to prove it is real. Andrew talk 05:03, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
I'm just wondering, did we ever reach a consensus about posting confidential information? 20px‎ Kudos 2 U Talk! Edit count! Contribs! 05:04, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
No. The images were deleted because there is no way to prove that they are real. Andrew talk 05:06, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Sal's Realm has a nice tidbit on this, also, we are to never post such info, you all should know that. Ryan PM 05:07, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
That picture is 100% real as i got it from a Friend who is a Pmod, and i know he is because i have seen him in-game.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cyruspt (talk).
There is no way to prove this. Andrew talk 05:16, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
YES THERE IS!!!! I can send you the enire picture he sent me! It's 10000000% fucking real, get off your ass and realize that.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cyruspt (talk).

I could care less about the pictures. You can't prove that they aren't fake because you can't cite the source. Period. Andrew talk 05:19, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I dont care if your PMSing either, but im telling you its real. And the "Source" is AIM cause thats how my friend sent it to me  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cyruspt (talk).
Good for him. You can't prove it's real without a public source. Andrew talk 05:24, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

"What is the player moderator center? What is inside there?

The player moderator center is a place with tools to help player moderators perform their role better. These tools include guidelines, code of conduct and forums for the discussion of procedures with the rest of the player mod team and Jagex Staff. You can only access this part of the website if you are a player moderator. The contents of the player moderator center are always kept confidential, so nothing should be revealed." - Sal's Realm. 05:31, 18 March 2009 (UTC) Ryan PM

Also, have you looked at all the other RuneScape Fansites, none of them have info such as that pic due to certain consequences, and/or the wishes that they never be shared to anyone as seen in the Inbox as an example. Ryan PM 05:34, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
I have a feeling this is going to turn into another "respecting classified information"...the point isn't that we can't add the confidential information (although that may be the point for some users) because (to quote User:Robert Horning)
"What, precisely, the "bare minimum" information that needs to be released can be debated. The point I'm trying to make is that disclosure of this certainly isn't illegal. Ethics is something that can be debated outside of discussing the legality of the situation, but suggesting that Jagex is going to take any sort of step from banning accounts of RS Wiki participants, shutting down the wiki, or demanding that Wikia Central will remove this information forcibly against the will of the participants on this wiki is completely unfounded. I am completely confident of this fact, from decades of experience in dealing with copyright law on a professional basis and extensive readings on this topic. No, I'm not a lawyer, but I'm well read on the subject and can certainly debate intellectual property law with the best "experts" that there are. As long as we are factual, it isn't really a problem."
I don't want to start the whole argument about the pmod centre again, but the above is for anyone who thinks it's illegal.
Anyway, I completely support soldier's decision to remove the picture as there is no way to source it. A pmod could say "Jagex is made of chocolate."; it doesn't make it true. Getting a mod to say it's real or fake doesn't make or break anything. Unless Jagex comes in and says the picture is real, we can't have it for the sake of verifiability. A shame, really. 20px‎ Kudos 2 U Talk! Edit count! Contribs! 05:51, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Past discussion on this topic is on this page. Ryan PM 05:54, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
The discussion in which the quote I used was from was here, during the previous Yew Grove discussion. 20px‎ Kudos 2 U Talk! Edit count! Contribs! 06:19, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
I don't really see what the real problem is. It is a controversial image that does not have any source of where it came from. To make things worse the only people that could confirm that it isn't a fake wont since that might possibly result in them being demodded. If somehow Jagex managed to make a moderator hate them so much that they openly will confirm it, they would be incredibly biased and wouldn't be the best source to use. There is simply no way of confirming the image to be real so it has absolutely no place on the wiki. [[File:]] User talk Evil Yanks Contribs [[File:]] 05:55, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Comment - I was the one that started the discussion in the clan chat about the image. I told soldier what he did reminded me of fascism and censorship and made it seem like I was targeting soldier for admin abuse claims etc. I have apologized to Soldier for doing so.
My personal opinion on this matter is that we are a complete Runescape database of information with zero official ties to Jagex. We should post all information as it relates to the game and official website with neutrality and efficiency. Other fan sites for the game post the information at will and as of yet have not been asked by Jagex to remove it legally or otherwise proving that they don't really care about information they are well aware has a high probability of being leaked without regulation. Some of you choose to not post it simply because of your moral philosophy, and thats fine. But unfortunately that is not grounds to sway global wiki policy toward your personal needs or wants. Verifying the images authenticity is not difficult at all and could be done by many members of this wiki. Second of all, information on this wiki is not subject to the same as that of Wikipedia. Information from the game is added, but no information is required to have an attached verifiable source. Thirdly, a while back a consensus was reached that a policy should be implemented, but after a draft was made there was no followup. I meant no disrespect or accusation and merely feel strongly about matters related to freedom of information. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 06:07, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Comment - We've all danced this dance before. We were split last time. There's no way for the general public to prove this image is what it claims to be. Should the player moderators of our community volunteer the information regarding its validity, they are putting their status in jeopardy. We've all seen what photoshop can do for rumours. Please, let's not beat a dead horse. Let's just leave it in the past, and move on. Karlis (talk) (contribs)

07:35, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Comment - I'd just like to reiterate the fact that player moderators are not allowed to distribute information regarding the p-mod centre in the first place. Cyruspt, you should be aware that by posting that picture, you are putting your friend's account in jeopardy. I do not doubt you when you say that it is real, and Soldier is likely of the same opinion; he simply does not want to see people hurt because of a simple image. I haven't seen the picture, so I cannot confirm nor deny its validity (though I wouldn't anyway). However, if it was legitimate, you all now know that there is absolutely nothing of interest in the P-mod centre unless you're a P-mod. There isn't an insta-ban button or anything cool like that. It's just a way for Jagex to keep P-mods performing as they should.

There is nothing wrong with being curious. However, that doesn't mean we should act on our curiosity. Why do so many people want to know what's in the P-mod centre? Not because they would misuse the information, but because it's "cool". However, there is a minority of players that would find some way to abuse the information in the P-mod centre, making the game less fun for all of us. Respect for confidentiality is a sacrifice we must make to keep the game running smoothly. It's not censorship; if you really want, with enough Google action, you can probably find out whatever you want about the P-mod centre. It's simply a personal commitment to preventing harmful information from spreading. If you really want to go asking your P-mod friends for information, I can't object to that. But just beware that you have the ability to hurt your friends with the release of such information, so please, keep it to yourself. 21:36, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Comment - As others have stated, P-mods cannot verify or deny the legitimacy of the image. Please be aware that if you do release screen shots of restricted parts of the website, Jagex may take action against any RuneScape accounts involved in the leak. To be on the safe side, don't upload any screen shots you happen to come across. Quest map icon.png Laser Dragon Task map icon.png 19:34, 18 March 2009 (UTC)


Let's say that this was an accusation of what the PMod Centre looks like (with much better design, might I add XD). All it would take is one Player Moderator to supposedly confirm it for us to believe it? There's like 8,000 Player Mods. There's at least four on this site who are registered and active that I can think of off the top of my head.

For all you non-mods know, we've sworn alliegance to Jagex to put you guys off the trail of what the Centre looks like at any cost. In that case, we could tell you if a screenshot is true or not, whether we tell the truth or not.

The only way to prove if something is the real thing, is to link others to it to show them. In this case, that can't be done, can it? The only people who are authorized to see it are notorious to not tell about it. Dragon medium helm! Whaddaya know?Chiafriend12Better than rune!I have 12 friends. 20:33, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I knew the uploaded image was a phony! This one looks exactly the way I expected the p-mod centre to look! Chia, I can't believe you revealed it!! Karlis (talk) (contribs)
20:40, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Well I could put the same picture up on a webserver and then use that as the guys would never know it was me and have no way to establish validity. And once again, where is our policy on verifiability? It should not be stopping us from posting information, not in the least. We know the player moderator center exists because of other information posted elsewhere on the internet, why should we be any different than any other fansite with the exact same info? Secondly, Jagex does not comb our wiki for information leaks. Nor could they easily tie anyone here with a Runescape account and then actually prove they were responsible for the leak. Short of posting on your userpage "I play Runescape as this character and I leaked this image" you will never be removed from your precious player moderator status.Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 20:49, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
I could upload a picture of moldy cheese on a webserver and claim it's the P-Mod Centre. Hey, I can cite it, can't I? ;) You cannot verify it's real unless you can cite the actual source, and since the actual source is not open to the public, we will never be able to verify it. Andrew talk 22:35, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Your missing my point. Verifiability is not on the list of things we withhold information for. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 22:50, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Okay then. The P-Mod Centre is made of moldy cheese. Since I don't need to verify that information I trust that you will all take my word for it. :) ;) Andrew talk 22:51, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
And I, being a Player Moderator, confirm Soldier's statement. >_> Dragon medium helm! Whaddaya know?Chiafriend12Better than rune!I have 12 friends. 22:53, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Once again both of you choose to be difficult and ignore the actual point. We do our best to verify information, but we don't have a verifiability checklist that we run information by before uploading. As such it should not be the final yes or no decision. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 05:18, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Soldier basically has said all that can be said about verifibility; only a Player or Jagex Mod can vouche for its identity, which makes it sketchy at best, secondly, as Chia has said, of those few that could verify it, who's to say that we wouldn't say that a picture real one is a fake, or that a picture of the fake is the real deal? Figuratively, I could show you a picture of a hole in the ground and say "Yep, that's the mod center."

The plot thickens. Let's say that another Pmod does leak the real center. What's to keep the rest of us to say "Nope, that's a fake, keep trying."? And, adding to this, there is no way to be sure that we are actually lying. Also, consider this; there is practically no way to ensure that any user is actually a P/Jmod, unless they can prove such in-game (as me, Chia, and Dragon have and can do in the CC or elsewhere ingame)

The fact of the matter is that you will never get a picture of the mod center that can be verified. I'm not even brushing on the point that leaking the center could result in severe disipinary action on the offender.

Besides, to all who say that we should show at least a screenshot of it, regardless of everything, we could just show a Rick Roll, because there's nothing, and I mean nothing, that would stop it from being a prank at all. --Beware the underrated. Pikaandpi Berserker Fury!Hit hard or go home. 05:26, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Delete it - The rule for PMods is keep information about the centre confidential. The only people with access to this information are PMods. Uploading this picture constitues a violation of the rules of the game. As a wiki, we don't want to encourage people to break the rules of the game, right? The wiki is not for promoting rule breaking. Air rune.png Tollerach hates SoF Fire rune.png 18:20, 19 March 2009 (UTC) PS - Chia, I like your image. I can't wait to be a PMod now so I can have access to those awesome graphics, jk.

It's clear that this has reached a consensus. Since confidential mod pics can't be verified they can be deleted. Andrew talk 00:34, 7 April 2009 (UTC)