Forum:RuneScape Model Viewer = Against the rules/archive

Forums: Yew Grove > RuneScape Model Viewer = Against the rules/archive

This page or section is an archive. Please do not edit the contents of this page. This thread was archived on 19 March 2010 by Azaz129.

A while ago, we discussed whether using screenshots of the RuneScape Model Viewer as images here on the Wiki were allowed by Jagex and our Wiki's rules and policies.

I was in favor of using them, as I thought they weren't against the rules. Other people thought they were against the rules, the rule of Macroing, and use of bots or third-party software - Section 2.4.

Turns out, they were right.

Mod Jon H confirmed that RuneScape Model Viewer is against the rules today, on the following RuneScape Official Forums thread:

Page 1 of 16,17,943,59996454 ,archived here

Page 2 of 16,17,943,59996454 ,archived here

Summed up:

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f229/dirizz/Wiki/RSMVAgainstRules.png

This thread was created to confirm that the people who opposed last time were correct, I was wrong. It should also be used when speedy deletion tagging any future images from the RuneScape Model Viewer.

For example: An image from RSMV of Kuradal, the hidden update slayer master released on 3 December 2009 (more info on the slayer master article), was uploaded today. I'm going to tag it right now for speedy deletion, you should do the same in the future if you recognize an obvious RSMV image.

i told u so drizzl3!!!#$ it r agenst da rools lul u fail

User:Lil diriz 77/Signatures 04:35, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

I'm sorry, perhaps you could give a little introduction on what the RuneScape Model Viewer is, for those of us who don't know? Butterman62 (talk) 04:38, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

From what I know, the program parses the game cache files (stored on your computer), and displays the images from them. It can find any image, whether or not it's actually used in the game. QWY^rwojy 04:43, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

Ah, I apologize The RuneScape Model Viewer is a program used to unpack the files the RuneScape applet (the game that

load? It says more things like "Downloading updates", "Checking for updates 13%" because it has to download the new models and schemes the game applet uses (whether they're shown in game or not, if jagex makes them, they're added to the database). These new models go to the mentioned file/folder on your computer, and are tightly compressed there. Now, after downloading the necessary .rar file to install RSMV (I won't say it here), you must decompress that file with WinRAR, then there should be a folder on your desktop named RSMV. The tools in this folder allow you to update the model viewer. The actual program, RSMV, reads the thousands (over 50,000 by now) of models you've just unpacked. After reading them (it does this as the program starts up), it allows you to view the colors and polygons in the model. You can scroll through the models as you please, all fifty thousand of them Kinda hard to explain unless you've actually done it. User:Lil diriz 77/Signatures 04:50, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu124/calebchiam/ModCrowontheimages2.png

C.Chiam^Talk 04:47, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

Oh O_o well, err, thanks. Even more reason to speedy delete the images :) User:Lil diriz 77/Signatures 04:50, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

Just a note, I created a shortcut here because it's pretty important information. WOZ^rwojy 04:59, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! User:Lil diriz 77/Signatures 05:00, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

How can you tell if the image is from unpacking the file? http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv341/Rwojy/scoot4.pngscooties 05:08, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

As explained above, every time you navigate your way to the runescape gameplay page after an update, the .jagex_cache_32 folder is updated with new models and schemes. The RSMV folder has a "run.bat" file in it. When opened, a specialized command prompt opens. This command prompts checks the .jagex_cache_32 folder for updates, if it finds any, it does what it did when RSMV was first installed: it takes each individual new model and converts it into a readable, viewable .dat file. My point: Everytime you update RuneScape by clicking the link to start up the java applet, you update the jagex folder, and it gives you to the option to update your RSMV further to a newer version if you wanted. RSMV doesn't just pull random models out of it's ass, after yesterday's update came out, I found all of the new models from the quest, including Zaros's head, walls of the temple and ghorrock fortress, the Zaros altar, Dr Nabanik, and everything else released. If you want proof, I'd gladly upload them to photobucket for you. User:Lil diriz 77/Signatures 05:18, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

I believe Tua was askng how you could actually tell where the image came from. It's not really possible to determine where an image came from, unless multiple trustworthy players have confirmed its non-existence. Like, to a new player, something like thing Dragon pickaxe or Dragon halberd might seem fake, as they have never seen one before. YLRYZZ^rwojy 06:22, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

So are you asking something like..... "How can I believe that this is legit"? "How can I believe you didnt just draw this in Paint"? I can record myself installing it and going through the models if you want I'll even commentate it if I find the time. Sorry if that's not the question you or Tua asked, I'm a bit confused. User:Lil diriz 77/Signatures 06:35, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

Indent reset What I believe he meant is how can you know if something is a screenshot or taken from the cache. Sorry I didn't make it clearer. BIMDT^rwojy 06:38, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

Ahh.... well I think that would be quite easy.

In-Game images:

• Depending on the image, there may be scenery in the background, or other players, other npcs, anything really!

• The things around the subject are other models, there are multiple models in an image if the above factor pertains to it! For example, this image has a polar bear, some snowy flooring, a few different shaped walls, and a player. I'd say it has at least 5 models showing in it.

• RSMV does not include animations, only still image. Any animations that look like they're from in game ARE in game.

RSMV images:'

• With RSMV, you can turn the angle any way you want. If you're looking at the model of an NPC, you can turn to angle to see their feet for example. If I take a picture as if a camera is sitting on the ground, looking up at an npc, it's obviously from RSMV! You can't stand under people in-game

• With RSMV, you can change the background color and you can remove or keep the grid the model stands on. If you see a model standing on a gray background with a grid under it's feet, it's obviously from RSMV, as there is no place in RuneScape like that.

• RSMV images are generally basic images. They aren't "HD". There isn't ALOT of detail in them.

I hope that clears things up a bit! There are surely more differences to be said, it's a bit of common sense though :P User:Lil diriz 77/Signatures 06:52, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

Comment - Of all of the "rules" that Jagex has asked of users, the rule against reverse engineering of their software is the only one that I have a really hard time with, and indeed from a legal point of view I think it is unenforcible. From a purely legal perspective, what is being done with the model viewer is perfectly legal and in fact there may even be legitimate reasons for people to be wanting to see what, exactly, the software that Jagex has been putting on all of our computers is in fact doing. If Jagex has automatically downloaded onto our own computers some images that may be a part of "future" content, that seems more like a deliberate leak to me. The Music cape is one of those items that I think ought to be fair game.

I'll even go so far to suggest that Jagex even blocking or banning users for violation of this rule might put Jagex into some very murky and problematic legal position, and would be something they should try to avoid unless they can find other violations that would hold much more weight on a legal basis. Citing this as a "terms of service" contract violation is about as weak of a legal defense as you can get. Depending on the jurisdiction and local legal situation, such a term of service clause may simply be an illegal contract requirement and would have to be considered as if it didn't even exist in the first place.

This isn't to say that we should have an instruction manual on how to write bots and hacks of the user interface on this wiki even though I don't see what would be wrong with maintaining a page on the user client protocols with the Jagex servers. The model viewer in particular is doing no harm to Jagex at all, and indeed seems to be almost deliberate on the part of Jagex in terms of "leaking" information about upcoming content. I don't understand why images from content stored on our own computers and put there by Jagex explicitly should be then subsequently treated as fiction on the part of the administrators of this wiki. This is no different than finding an image of an up coming quest or skill on the Jagex webpages. It can be verifiable (another user can check their own cache to find the image... no need to rely upon the word of a single person) and for me seems like a legitimate source in terms of potential future content. --Robert Horning 12:42, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

I share Robert's opinion on this. It is rubbish they are banning us from looking at a file that is on OUR own hard drive, that we did not actually manually download. We have a right to know what is stored in our computer. Chicken7 ^>talk 13:25, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

I agree 100%. I would even say that "viewing" files cannot be strictly considered a form of reverse engineering or manipulation, we are simply viewing them. And anything stored on MY comp is something I have the right to look at, period. No one is hacking into a Jagex database on one of their servers, that I would agree is wrong. This is Jagex thinking they are special, and they aren't.--Degenret01 14:11, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

How would they see if we are looking at the images anyway? Via the Send Us Your Specs or something? Oil4 ^Talk 14:22, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

I doubt they can tell if we're looking at the images (if they can, then I'd be scared). Anyway, I agree with the statements above; I don't know why they're putting these "forbidden" images on our computers, but it's a bit ridiculous that they don't want us to look at them.  Tien  14:46, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

Legally, I think that we have the right to look at these files, because it is a compressed file downloaded on to our hard drive. Extracting it is not reverse engineering by any definition I know of, and therefore is not a violation of the Third Party Software rule, section 2.4, as published by Jagex Limited on 12 May 2009. However, from the Terms & Conditions as published by Jagex Limited on 11 November 2009:

"Materials (including without limit all information, software, data, text, photographs, graphics, sound and video) placed on any Jagex Product by us or on our behalf are protected by copyright and other intellectual property rights of ourselves or our business partners / suppliers / advertisers. You may not use these materials or any Jagex Product except in accordance with these terms and conditions and for personal (i.e. non-commercial) use only."

The data collected from the model viewer falls into two categories: objects which appear in-game (e.g. Logs) and objects which do not (e.g. Music Cape). Those which do not appear in-game cannot be considered fair use, so uploading them to the wiki is a copyright violation. Those which do appear in-game are on fuzzy legal ground, so it is probably best to just get the screenshots from in-game. See below

I'm not entirely sure why we are discussing this anyways, as all we did with the last discussion was spin our tires for a time, and this thread was created to notify the community of Jagex' opinion of the issue. It seems pretty clear to me what that opinion is. I'm a regular user and I approve this message.  TLUL ^{Talk - Contribs} 17:17, December 5, 2009 (UTC) 

I don't think you understand the concept of fair use, which is not defined by Jagex but rather by statutory law under Title 17 of the United States Code, the basic laws of the USA. Similar laws do exist for other countries (sometimes called "fair-dealing"), but since you invoked Fair Use I'm going to spell out exactly what it does and does not cover:

“

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include - (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; (2) the nature of the copyrighted work; (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work. The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.

”

Its role of being in the game or not being in the game is completely irrelevant, or even if it is unpublished at all. The application of fair-use principles to content on this wiki is something that perhaps we should tackle at some point in the future, as we are running roughshod over the concept in a number of ways, but the critical commentary about things like a Music Cape certainly would qualify as fair-use even if it cannot be seen "in-game", and the use of a model viewer to identify that item is also completely legal. As to if Jagex wants us to be de-compiling and "reverse engineering" their software to find stuff like this is something that can be considered, but the legal side of things including fair use makes this completely acceptable. I can and will stand on this issue in a court of law if it comes to that. We can discuss the ethics of exploring the data cache of the game and if that gives players an "unfair advantage" or if it is ethical to find "spoilers" or "hints" on upcoming content from "leaks" or "hidden content". That is something completely different from the issues of legal fair-use, of which copying content from the model viewer and uploading it to our wiki is perfectly legal.... at least as much as copying content from screen captures while we are playing this game. This act is not, I repeat, not in violation of any law of the USA or for that matter even Great Britain. --Robert Horning 19:06, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

I stand corrected. In the United States of America, unpublished works may still be used under Fair Use. Thank you for pointing that out. In Canada, my country of residence, it is my understanding that unpublished works cannot be used under Fair Dealing if they are confidential works, based on previous court decisions (though not actually spelled out in the Copyright Act). Since Jagex does not release info on its updates before it releases the update itself, I took that to mean that uploading intellectual property of Jagex Limited which has not been publicly announced (and that may be part of a future update) would not necessarily qualify as fair dealing. I apologise for specificallly mentioning "Fair Use" as opposed to "Fair Dealing", I was intending to refer to the general concept, not the specific doctrine in U.S. copyright law. I'm a regular user and I approve this message.  TLUL ^{Talk - Contribs} 21:53, December 5, 2009 (UTC) 

To Last Username Left, for myself I am treating this as a simple intellectual discussion, not as some thing that is about opposes and supports. I am very well aware (as are all of us I think) that way too many on this wikia would never consider doing any thing the Almighty Jagex said was naughty. But having a discussion at least gets some brain cells moving for me. Its a good bit informational and educational also I think. And maybe we can get a few other minds stretching out in different directions by presenting some solid information.--Degenret01 23:09, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

I agree, degen. 1 thing, you guys keep referencing to a music cape. Have you seen one in the model viewer? If that is the case, I think we should create an article and upload the image. Chicken7 ^>talk 00:15, December 6, 2009 (UTC)

It's late, and I haven't read all of that up there, but I do agree with Robert's original statement, as a few of you others did, and the rest is just a huge TL;DR to me I'm tired, I'll read it tomorrow. As for the music cape, I already had this uploaded to my photobucket months ago:

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f229/dirizz/RS%20Model%20Viewer%20finds/MusicSkillcape.png

But the problem is, how do we know if it'll come out? I can back up my evidence that it will come out with 1) We need something to trim our quest cape (possibly an achieve diary cape also) 2) All skillcapes have the old skill images on them. For example, the agility cape shows a black stick figure running/jumping (), but the new icon for it is a person in what looks to be granite armor while powerwalking (). The old Music icon was this () while the new icon is this (). The Music Cape has the old icon. See what I'm getting at? User:Lil diriz 77/Signatures 06:59, December 6, 2009 (UTC)

I get a feeling that they just made that for fun one day... if I were a developer at Jagex I'd do stuff like that all the time. Hell I'd probably make a dragon raising skillcape or something really outlandish like that. http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu33/Psycho_Robot/Sigs%20and%20Avatars/kitty.pngPsycho Robot talk 07:03, December 6, 2009 (UTC)

I agree dude User:Lil diriz 77/Signatures 07:08, December 6, 2009 (UTC)

Yayz this is great! Even more reasons to speedy delete stuff!! --Nup^(T) 09:00, December 6, 2009 (UTC)

Comment - Perhaps we are heading off on the wrong track here in terms of if something is legal or not. I hope that I've buried the argument that extracting these images from the cache and uploading them to our wiki is certainly "legal" in the sense that Jagex really can't touch us as contributors to this wiki or even file a DCMA request to have these images deleted. That still doesn't suggest that it is a good idea to have these images on the wiki and I am suggesting that other rationale besides the legal issue could still be used for removing these images if we do wish to reach consensus with this issue. For myself, I think that the application and role of content gleaned from the cache should be quite limited. Even if somebody finds something like a music cape, it should be treated with a truckload of salt and mostly ignored. Some items such as the dragon pickaxe were mentioned as a possible future item, and if given other "leaks" including developer journals or comments on the RS official forums, adding an image from the cache might be useful in terms of adding some graphical content to any "hard" facts that have also been mentioned. My point is that there may be a role for images of this nature, but it should be very limited. There may be some point in terms of using a cache image to help isolate extra content to simply show the item itself for items that exist in-game. To create an article about a topic only because the item was found in the cache may not be sufficient "proof" that the item is going to be released. --Robert Horning 09:23, December 6, 2009 (UTC)

True, but it is proof that Jagex have taken the time to consider this item and may have been thinking about including it. An example, MechScape had a lot of work done to it and it was just about to be released then it was scrapped. Does that mean Wikipedia deletes all their articles on it? No. Even if this cape is never released, we should show it somewhere on the wiki, IMHO. But, as to what un-speculative information we could show on the article, I'm stumped. Chicken7 ^>talk 11:36, December 6, 2009 (UTC)

Another factor to add to this discussion - We are still trying to be recognized by Jagex, no? If they're considering us again and happen to stumble upon RSMV pictures we've uploaded (or take a look at some of the points made in this discussion) they may go "z0mg dere breakin 0ur rul3z we msutnt r3c0gniz dem @s a f@nsite!!!@shift11111". I'm sure we don't want that to happen. ~  Sentry Telos ^Talk  05:15, December 7, 2009 (UTC)

It is time to accept that we will not make the list. Consider, Jagex says it is our ads, which we can not control, therefore they will always be here, so we will always be disavowed. Or, if they are lying about the reasons (as some including myself believe) then we can not change what we do not know is wrong, so it is hardly likely we can fix that either. Even ignoring that, the day we change our content policies to please Jagex is the day we cease to be an independent wiki.--Degenret01 05:48, December 7, 2009 (UTC)

That last sentence was strangely moving. Chiafriend12Loon is best buttlord 07:01, December 7, 2009 (UTC)

I agree, that last sentence was great. Oil4 ^Talk 20:29, December 7, 2009 (UTC)

Seconded/thirded. Butterman62 (talk) 20:52, December 7, 2009 (UTC)

I WOULD FOLLOW YOU TO HELL AND BACK AGAIN http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu33/Psycho_Robot/Sigs%20and%20Avatars/kitty.pngPsycho Robot talk 21:07, December 7, 2009 (UTC)

Amen. - TehKittyCat (talk) 21:11, December 7, 2009 (UTC)

...Because of the ads is why wikia isn't accepted? If that's the case I do believe they are either lying or being hypocrites as while wikia isn't in charge of the ads jagex is not either as if they were in charge there wouldn't be a report ad button underneath of ads (wouldn't be needed obviously if they were in control). And like the others I wholeheartedly agree that the last sentence was very well put.  Archmage Elune  ^Talk_HS fetus is my son and I love him. 10:51, December 26, 2009 (UTC)

Comment - We've discussed this in a past thread. No models obtained from the viewer are to be on this wiki. As the screenshots show, Jagex doesn't like it. We extend the rules of Jagex to here, and if a mod says it's not allowed, you can sure as hell be sure that it's not allowed here. If seen, it's easy enough to delete, sure, but that's beside the point. I agree with Telos. Chaos Monk ^{Talk • Sign} 01:05, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

Why is that the situation? While I read the past thread, it didn't appear as though genuine consensus was formed. That and other similar threads about revealing "leaked" information have always been a bit of a flamefest with some very strong camps about the value of using information that perhaps Jagex would like to be stuffed back into Pandora's Box. The past thread I think you are referring to here was certainly no exception, and it appears to me that the "rule" that no models may be obtained from the viewer was rather arbitrarily applied to this wiki by some strong willed users rather than by "consensus", and used mob rule and democracy by "votes" to force that change. If I am mistaken on this point, I apologize, but my reading of those threads shows contention on the topic, and very little attempt to come to a compromise was done.

Besides, this thread certainly re-opens that discussion, and explicitly is focused on just the model viewer, other than previous the previous threads that certainly were much more broad in their scope of discussion regarding any "leaked" information. The environment in terms of the relationship between Jagex and this wiki community certainly seems strained at the moment, and I certainly don't see why a particular rule like this should not be subject to review, discussion, and revokation by the community if that seems to be genuine consensus. Saying that Jagex doesn't like us to use the cache viewer seems like a rather weak argument to me on this wiki. I get that, Jagex would prefer if the cache viewer program simply didn't exist. But why is it that Jagex moderator comments have to be taken as gospel and set policy for us here? --Robert Horning 01:38, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

The way I see it, if Jagex does something boneheaded like putting the image up on their website too early, then its fair game as to how it gets used. But if you need to use a program, then its not a leak, because its not caused by Jagex's negligence. Its like claiming its not stealing because the door was unlocked, because you picked the lock. http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu33/Psycho_Robot/Sigs%20and%20Avatars/kitty.pngPsycho Robot talk 01:41, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

That's the best comparison I've heard all day. I'm a regular user and I approve this message.  TLUL ^{Talk - Contribs} 01:46, December 8, 2009 (UTC) 

I would compare this more to somebody who has received a locked box in your mail box, that is identical to similar locked boxes that are in all of your neighbor's mailboxes as well, being curious once you brought it into your own living room and then picking the lock in the comfort of your own home to see what was inside. BTW, it turns out that the key to the lock was also taped on the outside of this box, so it didn't really take too much work to figure out the combination to open the box either. From a certain point of view, as soon as Jagex put this data on your computer, it is fair game and could even be considered to be "published" due to the widespread dissemination of this data. This isn't the same as "hacking" into Andrew Gower's personal workstation and scanning the hard drive of his computer for the latest juicy details about upcoming quests or even getting a "preview" of future content. This is hardly even really "hacking" by all but the most strict terms of the word. The rationale of having to use a 3rd party program doesn't really work either, as I already use 3rd party software to access Runescape. A couple of differnt 3rd party applications as a matter of fact. --Robert Horning 04:07, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

nice i had no idea it was against the rules --Tal_Ormanda

Comment - Despite the point I made above, I'm leaning towards allowing RSMV images on the wiki. Jagex keep them on our computer, so it can almost be considered released per Robert's post above. ~  Sentry Telos ^Talk  05:33, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

If they put it on tens to hundreds of thousands of peoples' hard drives, is that not essentially releasing it right there? Chiafriend12Loon is best buttlord 06:11, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

I think I have the right to look at anything that is being put on my pc. I agree that by putting it on a lot of pc's, jagex is essentially pre-releasing it. --Iavirissa 08:59, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

Comment - I don't see why the opinion of a few jagex mods represents the opinion of jagex as a whole,Is it not possible that those Moderators don't know how the model viewer works?Its not stated anywhere in the rules that looking at files on our computers is against the rules.Also the reason jagex wont recognize us is simply because they dont like us,If it were due to advertising then why do they recognize the funorb wiki? ~an unregistered user

Based on some of the posts that have been made, while it isn't "official", it appears as though the top level management of Jagex has addressed this issue including very likely senior engineers who know full well how this software works (they likely have even used it), and this has been discussed with legal counsel in terms of if it is legitimate and legal for them to put in an anti-reverse engineering clause in their terms-of-service agreement. It is, unfortunately, quite common to put things like that into software end user license agreements. I wouldn't put Jagex's position on this matter as a position of ignorance, but instead of willful and deliberate policy. I don't see Jagex's position on this to change at any time in the near future unless a court case or new copyright legislation explicitly permits this sort of software to be used and forces their hand on the issue. --Robert Horning 12:25, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

Comment - I would consider it reverse-engineering, since the files in the cache is encrypted. In order obtain the key, you would need to reverse-engineer the game itself. I would support allowing these RSMV files if the images are easier to obtain (i.e. in plain view; available without the use of any third-party software) but if Jagex decides to encrypt their files, even if it is loaded in our computers, then I think it should be left encrypted.

I would like to make another point regarding these RSMV-based images, through the following conversation between two wiki users:

User A: How did you get the image of the Music cape?

User B: I used RSMV, a third-party software, to get the image. It's so cool... I can literally see thousands of images, including images of unreleased items.

User A: WOW. But isn't that software illegal according to Mod John A or Mod Crow?

User B: Yeah, I know, mate. But I don't care, since the images are loaded into my computer. It's my computer, so I can do whatever I want...

User A: Oh. But I don't want to use this software since Jagex says it is against the rules.

User B: Tough luck, mate.

I don't know how many of you are using RSMV, or how popular this software is, but I don't use it, don't want to, and will probably won't be using it anytime soon. By allowing RSMV images, we are denying the general population of wiki the ability to deal with these images. Why do we need this exclusiveness? Aren't all editors equal? The idea of the wiki, at least IMO, is that everyone in this wiki is allowed equal opportunity.

The source code of any software installed is available and stored in our computers. But only some are open-sourced (and available to the general public). Most of the software developers choose to encrypt their software for some reason or another. Just because the software are stored in our computers, does it allow us to reverse-engineer them?   az ^talk   09:23, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

First of all, this is a choice on your part, so I don't think RS:AEAE really applies here in the context that is being suggested here. This is a choice no different than players wishing to get involved in various mini-games like Castle Wars or Stealing Creation. Please note: This isn't illegal. The abuse of that word is really starting to grate me and has a very specific meaning here. It is (generally) not illegal to reverse engineer computer software, hardware, or consumer electronics in general. It certainly isn't illegal in this case. Some folks and companies would like you to think it is illegal, but it is not. Jagex has asked, pretty please and out of the kindness of our hearts, to not reverse-engineer their software because spoilers can and do take away from the game playing experience. There is a principle of copyright violation that is taking place on a grand scale with the private servers, but to look at content on your own computer's hard drive is not a copyright violation or other "intellectual property" violation. I am asserting that Jagex is demanding rights that simply don't exist under the law, and scaring the player community into thinking they do exist by threats of intimidation that are presumed.

From the perspective of Jagex, of course this is something they would rather not be happening. If you as a player ask them about it, the responses given are exactly what should be expected. They aren't your legal team, and of course they don't like people figuring out their "secret sauce" on how they put the game together. The question being raised here is if we should have this on the wiki. I think an absolute and complete ban of content from the model viewer (any model viewer, not necessarily a specific software package) is simply burying our head and presuming such content doesn't exist. I also see no difference between this or something that changes a letter on their browser's URL bar and somehow gets some "hidden" content. I've seen companies assert changing URLs to be a form of illegal hacking. --Robert Horning 12:14, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

Comment - Robert has entirely summed up my opinion of the situation and I back that up with my full support for publishing images obtained with dreaded third party software. What some would call reverse engineering, I simply call being a power user. The software needed to "decrypt" (unpack) the files stored on your hard drive automatically put there by the Runescape applet are available free of charge and are open source. Use of these images and files in our context is also fully within the realm of fair use and we will bring no legal trouble upon ourselves. I also find it highly unlikely that Jagex could or would even try to make any attempt to ban users who access and publish these files under the terms of fair use while actual hackers attempt to truly reverse engineer and crack Jagex software server side. As angry as Jagex makes me at times, it is not my intention to openly defy them at every turn, it just seems like instead of re-examining why they have such a silly rule in the first place they try to keep the entire community in the dark by blanketing even legitimate attempts and obtaining information with a big bad "all third party software is bad" sign. TEbuddy 10:56, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

Comment - Look,Its never stated anywhere in the runescape rules we cant view these files.While this wiki does follow all of the runescape rules,There is no rule against this.Just because some jagex mod tells us not to does not matter,The runescape wiki IS NOT JAGEX.Im all for RSMV being used to get a clearer picture of things as long as its taken on a white background and cropped.But i think DONT we should have pictures of SPECULATED future content.Only pictures of things that have been confirmed(in a developers blog for example) or are already in the game. ~Unregistered User

The images are often SD or not as detailed as HD, so using it for pictures would not be that good. Oil4 ^Talk 17:52, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

Comment - Per the DMCA (http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/openlaw/DVD/1201.html#f), reverse engineering of software is allowed in some cases, notably related to interoperability. I'm not a lawyer, but I suspect it would apply to this site (hosted in the US I think) and any US users, but I don't think this would not stop jagex from banning accounts that do it.  To3cutt3r ^{Talk HS Log}  15:04, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

Comment - They cant ban us because they would be unable to get proof.

You think some of the p-mods and f-mods we have here wouldn't hesitate to inform Jagex if they saw us doing something they don't like? And 90 percent of use the same in game name as wiki names. AND there is NO appeals process any longer for getting banned, last I heard. They would do it out of spite. I am not saying don't do it. But don't think for a second that you are really anonymous here. If your going to do it, walk in with eyes wide open, not blinded to reality.--74.76.48.104 19:03, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

Most of the people here are mature and nice enough not to report on sight. Also, appealing is STILL possible - just not for botters and RWTers, but you can still appeal a ban when you're banned for something else.

Also, if you're banned for this at all, you would only be banned for a day or something. Oil4 ^Talk 19:32, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

That is ridiculous. You will not be banned.TEbuddy 22:36, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

Comment - If I wanted to "get involved in various mini-games like Castle Wars or Stealing Creation", I could still do it if I wanted to. Legality aside, forcing someone to use a software that Jagex doesn't like or allow is not the same as getting involved in minigames.

I think we would be opening Pandora's box with RSMV-based images. You could use the thing for personal use, but posting the images is not something I would do. We could turn into a leak-filled encyclopaedia with information dedicated solely for leaked images and leaked content. I don't think we should walk down this path. How would we know if the leaked item is ever going to be released? It is just an image in a cache...

I have yet to see someone attempt to recreate the RSMV software with open-sourced software. The RSMV software, as far as I know, was created by someone with inner knowledge of the RuneScape game programming. If someone (who is not a game hacker) could recreate the third-party software to extract the files from the cache, I would be really pleased.   az ^talk   21:52, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

Why over dramatize the situation? As far as I know there are only a few ways leaks make their way into the public eye. Either Jagex makes a mistake on the knowledge base or Jagex puts the information in the cache which is distributed to everyone who opens the applet. Either way we are talking about rare events in which we obtain text and pictures at the most that suggest at new or scrapped content. If it does one thing, it will make us that much more of an appealing information resource for Runescape. Also, RSMV is an open source application that does not require inner knowledge of the Runescape game code. TEbuddy 22:36, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

I am not over-dramatising, I'm merely suggesting one possibility that might happen if we started allowing RSMV images. And no, it was created by a known game hacker with some knowledge of the RuneScape programming. (You would need to unpack the cache files before they are loaded into the viewer.)

I wonder why aren't there any other model viewers available, hmmm.... Maybe someone from the wiki should try creating the software from scratch, and see if they can figure out a way to these unpack cache files, and load it into a model viewer. Why depend on some third-party software, when we could create our very own software to do it?   az ^talk   23:57, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

I am not surprised at all that a non technical community would not have invented a model viewer or cache extractor with all of the unnecessary demonizing Jagex goes out of the way to do of all third party applications. Particularly given the average age and technical skill level of the average web user nowadays. However as pointed out earlier using terms like hacker, reverse engineering, in depth knowledge of game code etc do nothing for your argument. The files are not encrypted and you can use free open source software to unpack everything. Jagex can kick and scream all they want but they cannot realistically stop people from unpacking or otherwise modifying the game applet or cache files as long as the game remains in the form it is now. Grasping at straws and pointing out coincidences that may suggest something is not a good reason to do or not do anything. We need to base our decision around the important factors like legal ramifications and practicality, neither of which would be jeopardized by using images obtained from cache files. I also look very much forward to Robert's attempt at creating a viable application that would convince you. TEbuddy 04:03, December 9, 2009 (UTC)

If that is a challenge, I think I might take you up on it. While I have "visited" the "reverse engineering" websites and taken a look at some of the private server code (it is quite awful and really needs some help), I haven't really studied in depth the data format for how the models are stored. I'd have to look, but I'd bet it would be a standard 3d graphical format that could be opened and viewed with Blender or some other common and popular 3-D rendering software package. All the 3-D viewer does is separate out each file, as they are sort of "mushed" together in one continuous data stream. Jagex has tried some encryption algorithms, but it isn't really all that complicated. Seriously, I think you are working this up to be something far more than it is. I was just hoping to spend my time doing something else instead, but if that is the challenge you want me to get into, so be it. The file can be unpacked with RAR, to note a "standard" compression scheme for this data that isn't really all that unusual. This is what I meant was a locked box with the key taped to the outside. --Robert Horning 01:48, December 9, 2009 (UTC)

Comment - I see that this discussion hasn't budged from anywhere since we last left it. I really hadn't expected it to, regardless. However, I see the model viewer as a spoiler for future updates. Hell, there was a full scale picture of Kuradel before she was released, and that weird music cape. The wiki should be on top of all the recent Runescape news, but NOT by releasing images from the cache browser or whatever it is. It's like looking at your presents for Christmas after your parents go to sleep: You feel good being the know-it-all kid who knows exactly what they'll get, but when you wake up the next morning, it's not as magical. I don't want to sound like a kid there, but what legitimate reason do we have to do digging in caches to be ahead? Will we really stoop to these dark ways just to rub it in Jagex's face, or to educate the viewer? No, it'll show that we have no set of morals or respect for Jagex and Runescape, and last I checked, we were trying to be on Jagex's good side. If this discussion comes out to being that the model viewer is fair game, than the wiki will be off it's original base, and before long twist into something horrendous. The model viewer is disgusting, it takes away the anticipation of a release, and if we honestly can't wait for a release to get images, then my view on the community's morals abd maturity will be changed. Be patient, and get over the fact you have to wait. Chaos Monk ^{Talk • Sign} 20:12, December 10, 2009 (UTC)

Will we really stoop to these dark ways just to rub it in Jagex's face, or to educate the viewer? Educating the viewer is what the RuneScape Wiki is all about, you know. We're an encyclopedia. Butterman62 (talk) 21:11, December 10, 2009 (UTC)

How do you assign these moral guidelines specifically based on this event? Why is using legal and free software to extract images and potential updates from the game cache going to make us worse people? If anything it would only increase community awareness and if anything attract new viewers or editors. I say it is a poor argument to say that some of us (I know I do not) would feel bad if we post these images. As far as loyalty or honoring Jagex goes, how do you decide what rules we do and do not honor? We obviously are not following a few and its very obvious because we are not on the featured fansite list. TEbuddy 21:16, December 10, 2009 (UTC)

As a general principle, we do try to encourage players to keep the rules as have been stated by Jagex and not try to push the limit on what is "legal" and "not legal". I agree with you, Tebuddy, that I don't even have a moral qualm about scanning my own hard drive and then taking any graphical representation of that content and uploading it to this wiki. The only possible argument I can see that is valid is a sort of anti-spoiler policy of some sort. We've gone on multiple threads about "leaks", information about the game, and content sent to players on a personal basis such as I "revealed" on this Yew Grove discussion. There clearly are multiple philosophical camps on this wiki, including administrators and users, who have no problem acting on their moral or philosophical philosophy. This can and has resulted in some edit wars and hard feelings as well. The article about Kuradal is of particular significance as it is recent and has had several users try to upload images from this model viewer... and a few over zealous admins who have even deleted "legitimate" and "normal" user interface screenshots on the presumption that they were taken from the model viewer as it looked very similar once you cleaned up the background and made it transparent, as is typical for most screenshots. The real issue here is where to come to a consensus when there clearly is none.

As I pointed out earlier, the current policy against these images really was not done by consensus but rather by brute force of will. Consensus was not achieved, and unfortunately I don't see consensus forming now either to reverse that previous rule that was set. Those who oppose these images see no room to compromise and form consensus on this issue, as they think they've already won the argument. I find that unfortunate as well. I, too, find the arguments to support this policy to be very weak and founded on false principles (that the content is illegal), but trying to find that middle ground to even allow some of these images under even a heavily restricted policy seems to be impossible. That is the impass we are facing right now. Shy of flat-out wheel warring between two groups of admins in this philosophical battle thinking we are both correct and deleting/undeleting/blocking/unblocking each other, I don't know where to go here. And yes, I did strongly consider undeleting the images of Kuradal that had been deleted earlier and at least forcing it to a VfD, as the deletion of those images was controversial and not automatically done via consensus. It certainly was not vandalism and the editors/contributors who added those images were acting on good faith when those images were uploaded. The only reason I let the deletion stand was that I thought a better image would soon be obtained from a high level player who got to the slayer dungeon and could do an in-game screen shot... which is exactly what did happen.

I also understand the viewpoint of those who want to steadfastly keep all of Jagex's rules of conduct and follow perhaps the moral high ground here. There is merit do doing that regardless of what Jagex thinks of us. In this specific case, Jagex has asked us as a player community (speaking broadly and not specifically as just the RS Wiki community) to refrain from using the images in the Cache viewer... and there are certainly some die-hard fans of Jagex that want to follow those wishes. The moral dilemma here is if we wish to maintain editorial independence from Jagex and tell them to eff off on this issue, or to go along with this decision and then have to face this issue again when some other semi or very controversial decision comes from Jagex that impacts our content on an editorial basis with this wiki. I'm also trying to see within myself at what point I'm willing to stand firm and say "here and no more can you take, Jagex!" I'm not sure it is worth it here for me to go that far with these cache images, but it certainly is close.

While the current Jagex management has been rather tolerant of fan websites, we are also at their mercy here too to a certain extent. I've noted before how Paramount Studios actually did go after fan websites (Star Trek) on a legal basis with cease and desist on everything, which would be in our case if Jagex did something like this to us to be nearly our entire image database, many quest walk throughs, and at least 50% of the textual content of this wiki or more. Wikia may simply think it is easier to shut us down completely if that happened, as Wikia did do to the UnRunescape wiki (which BTW I found incredibly funny and interesting, and think they still had a free speech argument to stay going if they really had wanted to). Considering that Jagex has been tolerant should we, perhaps, let Jagex have this one bone? On the other hand, what would we as a community do if they forced us into a strict interpretation of fair-use with a couple lawyers hired by our player community constantly fighting back on nearly everything we wrote? Where, exactly, is the moral high ground that we should be following here? What sort of editorial independence do we wish to assert on this and other matters? --Robert Horning 22:13, December 10, 2009 (UTC)

Butterman, we're above stooping to using shady ways to get images. We get information as it comes out, not before. If the community honestly thinks getting information through non-Jagex approved methods, then why not just go up to Jagex and say we never want affiliation? Using their models without their permission, as clearly shown above, will show that we don't care about their guidelines and their game in general. Chaos Monk ^{Talk • Sign} 22:39, December 10, 2009 (UTC)

But we already are using their models, without explicit permission by copying them from another piece of software: The Jagex Runescape user client. I should note that until very recently the only images that Jagex expressly permitted was a small set of images that Jagex had prepared for fan websites as a download. It was mainly some concept art and banner ads that were supposed to link to the main Runescape website. I am saying that if we stick to the strict interpretation that we should only use Jagex-approved images ("used with permission"), that it is a very slippery slope and may not be something we would want to do either. Seriously, nearly our entire image database is at risk here, and we certainly use images from Runescape in a way that very much pushes the boundaries of fair-use. The only reason why Jagex has relented about the issue of fansite screen captures as is done by us, Tip.it, Sal's Realm, and the other fansites is precisely because we as a fansite community (speaking broadly) have "pushed the boundaries" and insisted on the ability to have those screen captures. Besides, we can also make a business case that these fan sites are a form of advertising for Jagex and ultimately push and/or maintain their current customer base. The problem with a strict standard of only using what Jagex approves is that Jagex has been shown to be fickle and change their minds on a whim for what is "approved" and "not approved"... often contradicting themselves even from one day to the next. How can you set policy in an environment like that on such a standard? --Robert Horning 10:59, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

"Seriously, nearly our entire image database is at risk here..." I think you may be blowing things out of proportion here? Since when has Jagex ever made an issue about fansite screenshots and how did you get the "fact" that "The only reason why Jagex has relented about the issue of fansite screen captures". C.Chiam^Talk 12:52, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

I pointed out one Runescape wiki that has been shut down by a cease and desist letter from a Jagex lawyer: The Unrunescape Wiki. That they are willing to go to that extreme when somebody goes to a point they don't like, this is a documented fact now. Yes, that wiki was a little extreme and I can understand Wikia's decision to shut it down or at least disassociate themselves from that particular Wiki community. I also pointed out how another company, in particular Paramount Pictures, went from embracing or at least tolerating their fan community and then turned on them when a change in the corporate management happened that attacked that fan community. I see little to protect ourselves here either if that were to happen, and I am saying that much of our image database is not with permission and that our running roughshod over the concept of fair-use has not helped. If you want to get into a battle over what is legal and not legal, there is much of our image database that needs to go. That was my point. Ironically, while much can go in such a move, these model viewer images may be one thing that Jagex will have a hard time removing and may be some of the content that remains in such a major cleansing of our image database. --Robert Horning 15:04, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

They weren't going to any extreme by getting the UnRuneScape Wiki shut down, it had plenty of offensive, libelous content and requesting that it get shut down was perfectly reasonable. With regards to your comment about Paramount Pictures, my point wasn't that it's impossible for Jagex to take such actions, but they haven't shown any detest for the fact that we use in-game images and whatnot. Could you explain exactly why our current images have to go? Again, I'm still looking for the evidence for the claims about them not liking fansites using in-game screenshots. C.Chiam^Talk 15:11, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

Fair-use is pretty exacting. There has to be critical commentary related to it or it has to be used in a scholarly context. Some uses of screen shots on this wiki certainly fit that description, but others are done more for a decorative value. The Wiki logo in particular is a pure copyright violation, as an example. This is why Wikipedia goes to great lengths to demand a "rationale" on each and every image that also has to be justified for each page where that image is used for what fair-use rationale it is there. I am indeed suggesting that screen shots currently on this wiki are only there by default. I also will note that at one point Jagex did demand that no screen captures be used on fan websites as well. That is in the past (thank goodness), but it was the player community that pushed this issue and Jagex has essentially let this go to the current state of the fan websites without having to force the issue. --Robert Horning 15:34, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

P.S. I do consider any legal action to be an extreme, where I hope that a "normal" conversation or request could have calmed things down first. I think that could have been done on the Unrunescape wiki as well, although they may have felt it was a hopeless cause. BTW, I see things that were much more off the wall and perhaps even libelous on the Uncyclopedia than was done on the Unrunescape wiki. Perhaps the users should have simply made it a sub-project on the Uncyclopedia instead. No matter, it is shut down and won't likely ever be re-created. This is an extreme position whenever lawyers get out and start filing formal legal actions, which was my point, and this was initiated by Jagex. --Robert Horning 15:45, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

Not on our wiki please - I'm not going to argue the legal aspects of it, nor does it bother me that people want to unpack files that are on their computer. However, two Jagex employees have explicitly stated that it is against the rules to use RSMV and could get accounts banned. So I strongly believe that we should not allow images on our wiki that can only be obtained (and verified for that matter) by breaking the rules. I don't want to see people receive bans as a result of their wiki activity, nor do I want our wiki to be seen as promoting rule-breaking. I think that would undermine our legitimacy as a source for good information. Just because they make a model of something doesn't mean they are going to use it ever. Lots of ideas get scrapped all the time in software development. It's pure speculation that these items will ever be in the game (damn it i lost :0). So ya, I don't think we should allow them on our wiki. Tollerach hates SoF 21:56, December 10, 2009 (UTC)

I wrote a huge paragraph with practically the same content as that, then accidentally closed the tab (erasing the lot ). I completely agree with you: We can't prove that a certain model is going to be used (Jagex are hardly going to tell us), and its going to seem like rulebreaking (to Jagex anyway).  @Gaz#7521 22:07, December 10, 2009 (UTC)

YES ON OUR WIKI I certainly don't want to see people banned over this, but if they want to do it it isn't our place to stop them. Regarding the issue of knowing whether or not it is a real item to be released, we simply have to tag said item with an "unknown if this will ever be released" template, thats' so easy it wasn't even worth using as an argument.--Degenret01 13:51, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

If you don't know what it is, how can you put it on a page? Oil4 ^Talk 21:56, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

If the picture doesn't allow us to identify it, then that makes sense, how can it indeed. But the Dragon pick and Music cape were pretty clear so they desrved pages IMO.--Degenret01 00:21, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

But what about models that Jagex employees make for fun without ever intending to release them? That's what I thought the music cape was from the time I first saw it. Clearly now they do intend to releae it eventually, but what if they didn't? Just because its in the cache does not necessarily mean that it will ever be released, and uploading an image like that would, I believe, violate RS:NIP http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu33/Psycho_Robot/Sigs%20and%20Avatars/kitty.pngPsycho Robot talk 01:35, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

If Jagex plays funny buggers and puts fake images in just to see who finds them, so what? We should document it, like we have been doing (one example). We cover "all things RuneScape", so why not cover things that are part of the RuneScape cache that A LOT of players would be interested in. And about RS:NIP, *cough*. Chicken7 ^>talk 02:53, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Thingy and Truffle were actually in-game, not just in the cache. They weren't obtanable, but they were in-game. Oil4 ^Talk 12:59, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Question How would the process of JaGex getting us shut down proceed if it were to come to that? Even though Robert calls it "extreme", this has been buzzing around me for a few days now. As badly as I would like us to have these pics, I don't want us shut down. With the size and involvement of our community would Wikia gaming at least give us some notice beforehand? Would JaGex? Anyone have a real clue? As serious as my question is, I am looking for some solid answers here, not just fear mongering and worrying. And I hope I haven't created any. But some idea of what realistically could happen would be nice.--Degenret01 15:07, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

The legal process involved here would have to come in the form of a DMCA take-down request where Jagex would have to address what specific content that they would like to have removed and the justification for that action. Generally for individual files and for tweaking minor content, most people just let it slide by and let the content disappear, but for effectively shutting down the wiki there are more actions to follow. We, as users and people who have put this content up on this "Internet Service Provider" (which is the legal basis under which Wikia operates here), could issue a counter-protest to any action to remove content. The law spells out specific terms where that would happen, but it would be on the order of months between actions. The notice would be initially to Wikia, not to Jagex. With a counter-protest in hand, Wikia simply bows out of the process and lets the courts take over deciding what could and could not happen, with perhaps legal injunctions that would have to be issued by a judge that would spell out precisely what would and would not be permitted to be displayed, or if the website would have to be placed in "hiatus". A protest also requires Wikia (and other ISPs) to put the content back up that was previously deleted until the courts formally make the decision on the status of that content.

The whole process would take years to complete, so it isn't a situation where one day you would be editing the wiki and the next day it would be shut down. Wikia tradition is also such that we as a community may even be able to get a snapshot of the wiki database and be able to set it up somewhere else on our own dime with another ISP, if necessary. It would also get very expensive... both to contributors (but there may be some advocates like the Electronic Freedom Foundation that might help here) and to Jagex as well. The expense is likely to be the largest reason why Jagex would never do this, not to mention the enormous amount of bad publicity that would be generated by such an action on a community like the RS Wiki. Arbitrarily shutting this wiki down is something that would happen without some considerable opposition... and I'll note here I would follow the legal channels protesting this action myself for at least preserving the wiki as a whole, particularly if it seemed to me that we were following the law and my own lawyer agreed we had a legitimate legal defense in the issue.

The end result from even a trial would be likely to involve a very strict copyright enforcement on the wiki with rules even stronger than Wikipedia in terms of fair-use. Even the worst extreme, I really don't see Jagex being successful in actually shutting us down, but it could certainly sting quite a bit. Fair-use does not imply we can copy protected content with impunity, and instead has specific exceptions for when it can and can't be used. I am suggesting that there is content used on this wiki that is in violation of fair-use principles (at least we have been very sloppy with it), but at the same time there are legal uses for content "extracted" from the client software through other means, including the model viewers.

I did point out that Paramount Studios did this to their Star Trek fans, and shut down a great many fan websites. Paramount also found declining ticket sales, viewers of its television shows (you can debate separately if Star Trek:Enterprise was a series worth watching), and a general loss of income after they did this sort of stupid action as well. Paramount also reversed course on this policy after awhile and is currently much more open to fan websites besides the "official" Star Trek website. I would expect a similar impact with Jagex and Runescape if that were to happen.

As for Jagex looking at the RuneScape:Counter Vandalism Unit, our user pages, and elsewhere to find members of this community who have supported this policy of putting up images from the model viewer and banning those accounts (like mine), that is indeed something that would put Jagex into a stronger legal position and be harder to fight against. Still, courts are not entirely silent even on actions of that nature, and have been ruling in other similar judicial proceedings that perhaps there are property rights associated with virtual content. It certainly wouldn't look good to the greater RuneScape community if that happened, and it would be a difficult P.R. battle for Jagex to win against... especially for something which is perfectly legal for private individuals like ourselves to be doing. There is some risk to sticking your neck out here, but I'm also saying it isn't hopeless either.

It is for this reason I suggest we ignore the legal issues entirely and instead appeal to the ethics of scanning through the models, images, and other content of the user client, including how it applies to the RuneScape:Spoiler policy. I do argue that scanning through the models in the user client is nothing more than a spoiler, but perhaps a better argument can be made than that. Legally speaking, I don't buy the argument that we can't upload images from the model viewer or risk getting the site shut down. Still, that doesn't address if we should upload images from the model viewer, which is an entirely different proposition. --Robert Horning 19:14, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

So essentially, Jagex taking legal action against us is detrimental to BOTH parties, so there isn't much reason for them to do this. OK then. ~  Sentry Telos ^Talk  20:12, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

Nice way to put it in a nutshell. - TehKittyCat (talk) 20:40, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

Guys, you're going to get us shhut down. If the J-mod says to not do it, DON'T DO IT. It's as simple as that.

And pardon me if I offend you, Robert Horning, but you're really starting to get TOO bold and brash with your lengthy speeches. I know you're a sysop, but try not to assume that just because there are loopholes in Jagex policy (ie, the models are on our computers whether we like it or not) then it's perfectly fine to break the rules and take these images.

And for anyone else who thinks this is fine and hunky-dory, go read the rules again. I am NOT risking my account being banned for being associated with a website that wants to break the rules. https://i.imgur.com/7kyt1iT.gif --WINE OF GOOD HEALTH _{(Actually Stinko)} 18:32, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Someone asked what would happen if Jagex were to try to get the site taken down. He gave a clear and extensive explanation. I do not see what you are complaining about. --Wowbagger421 18:55, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Too bold and brash in his lengthy explanations that completely shred counter arguments? If you spent more time learning about the model viewer and computer security in general you would feel less threatened at a hint of anything new. There is no legal or security risk here, Robert is absolutely correct TEbuddy 14:48, December 18, 2009 (UTC).

First of all, I'm trying to seek consensus on this topic instead of trying to railroad the issue based on my viewpoint. Consensus requires compromise... and I see very little of that happening on this topic at all (although I appreciate your comments on this issue, Tebuddy... and you too, Stinkowing, and everybody else). I hope my sysop status on this wiki is completely irrelevant to this discussion, other than pointing out that wheel warring on this topic could be a result if we don't reach consensus. BTW, I made a specific pledge to not wheel war when I became a sysop, so I'm not going to be the one to start such a war... and I've let it slide when people have deleted images derived from the cache viewer even though I think it is based on a policy that was rail-roaded into existence without consensus. It is consensus that we need on this topic. Also, RS:AEAE, so my sysop status is also immaterial to this discussion.

As for why I don't buy the argument that "Jagex said don't do it, so we shouldn't do it", I think Jagex has presumed a whole bunch of legal authority that they simply don't have. The anti-reverse engineering clause in the terms-of-service agreement is one of those provisions I happen to think is not only invalid, but that clause itself may be illegal for Jagex to even have in the terms of service agreement. Messing around with the Jagex servers (aka a bot or malware that is even worse) is not the same thing as finding out how they put the user client software together. Yes, there are valid arguments for why Jagex would discourage users from using 3rd party software. There are mischievous and ill-meaning folks who do produce software that we should be wary of, and certainly there is 3rd party "helper" software you should likely not use for a great many reasons. But complete blind faith in Jagex is something I think is equally wrong-headed and something that should be fought against. Andrew Gower is not my god, and I certainly hope that he never reaches that sort of status in the eyes of the players and participants of Runescape and its player communities. Neither he nor I are infallible. --Robert Horning 18:13, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

Comment I see a lot of ignorance in this thread both on the legal and technical aspects of this issue.

• Some people are saying "illegal" when they mean "against the rules". I think a few people don't even understand that there is a difference.

• Other people don't actually understand what the model viewer is. There is no encryption or reverse engineering involved. Throwing words like these around just makes people scared.

The bottom line is this. Looking at the cache files is not illegal. In fact, going by the KB article it's not even against the rules. I'm sure Jagex doesn't like that information about future updates has been leaked, but they can't stop people from peeking at files on their own computers. If they really care about it, they'll stop putting models in the game before they use them. The idea that they are going to do detective work to try to figure out the account names of people who make the images is just silly. These images are going to get out and there is no reason we should ignore them. If Jagex actually asks us not to use them, then we could consider taking them down. --Wowbagger421 19:39, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

We can't verify these images ... without breaking the rules. My point is that the only way we can prove that these image aren't fakes is by using a program that is against the rules (as stated by a JMod). I'm not going to use that program, and we shouldn't be encouraging others to use it either, since that promotes breaking the rules. I understand that some people want to fight Jagex on this. That's fine, but please don't get the wiki involved. We don't allow any other images from third party software that break the rules set forth by Jagex, and I don't think we should start now. Tollerach hates SoF 22:51, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Comment - I have a feeling that Mod Crow is new and doesn't know what s/he's doing. How does backtracking upon cached files supposedly "access accounts"? Listen up folks, THERE IS NO LIABILITY OF YOUR COMPROMISED SECURITY HERE!

It's just a simple program designed to give users another perspective upon images and files! If Jagex doesn't like us using software such as this, then disk defragmenters shouldn't be allowed either, after all, they give us an advantage and are 3rd-party.

I mean, c'mon, seriously, they even provided us with their own game source/cache/info, it's not their choice anymore, it's ours. I want to see full proof anywhere stated explicitly within the ToS that this type of gimmicking is not allowed.--Fruit.Smoothie 23:05, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Eh, Mod Crow has been with Jagex for quite some time now. He's the one that wants to rule the universe. Oil4 ^Talk 13:14, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

Oh, confused him and Mod Raven. NVM. Oil4 ^Talk 13:15, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

Jagex and Cousin

My cousin in so much trouble! I just found out about this model viewer! He gave me this image and said he works for Jagex.

--File:Guthix logo.svg Parsonsda ^{Talk | Sign Here} File:Guthix logo.svg 22:08, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

I highly doubt that your cousin even exists, Parsons. For all I know (or actually, CARE), you're just trying to use the model viewer yourself. Also, if you don't want to get into trouble, DON'T POST THE IMAGE IN THE FIRST PLACE. Simple as that.

And I STILL don't believe the bullshit (pardon my language) that this is OK. It's NOT, and I'm sticking by that idea. https://i.imgur.com/7kyt1iT.gif --WINE OF GOOD HEALTH _{(Actually Stinko)} 22:33, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

This does not help further the argument that images from the model viewer might be useful on this wiki, and if it weren't for RS:DDD I would simply have deleted your post above as simply trollish behavior. I agree with Stinkowing..... your cousin doesn't exist, or he is pulling your leg in terms of working for Jagex. If you have a comment on the topic at hand, please respond with a well formed comment. This is simply childish behavior. If you want to voluntarily remove your post, you can also remove this particular reply as a response. --Robert Horning 04:39, December 20, 2009 (UTC)

We can always use a JavaScript hide. - TehKittyCat (talk) 15:39, December 20, 2009 (UTC)

On a side note, I think that is probably one of the new stall models (I read somewhere they're updating Draynor Village marktplace). Oil4 ^Talk 17:03, December 20, 2009 (UTC)

Well, if we honestly want to leak Jagex's information that they specifically said THEY DON'T WANT LEAKED, then this whole wiki's going to get on Jagex's bad side. Where do our morals lie: Updating the wiki and ticking off Jagex, or waiting for the updates to come out and appease them? Chaos Monk ^{Talk • Sign} 17:29, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

I don't know what, exactly, this has to do with this specific model image, but the fact is that this image has been leaked with or without Jagex's cooperation. Once leaked, the information can't be unleaked. Jagex's wishes are irrelevant in this case. If you are worried about viewing spoilers to upcoming content, that is a separate argument. We already have a RuneScape:Spoiler policy, which pretty much says that spoilers will happen, so live with it. I'd put this in the same category as that policy... unless you wish to change it? --Robert Horning 17:57, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

I think he meant speculation rather than spoilers. Oil4 ^Talk 21:45, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

I meant spoilers, i.e. revealing information that is true and factual, but before you find out about it in-game through normal playing activities. The Cyrstal Ball policy also applies, so far as the fact that the model exists tells you nothing about how it is going to be used. That a music cape might exist, but it could end up being sold by Diango's Toy Store sort of how the Dragon kite is available to players as a gag gift. Ditto for this cart. So yeah, I suppose pure speculation needs to be thrown out as well. In some cases, like the Music cape, there have been some formal discussion about the concept (j-mod comments on the official forums) that can at least lend some credibility to the concept. I have seen absolutely no discussion about what this cart might be used for, or if it would be a new feature or something in an upcoming quest. Perhaps it will be, but so far it is a total blank on how it would be used. Bringing up this cart in the particular discussion lends no argument either in support or opposition to having images like this being used on this wiki. --Robert Horning 23:21, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

What I'm talking about is that this is going against Jagex wants people to do. The cart is a completely minor detail of the fact that the wiki wants to be recognized as a Runescape fansite by Jagex. If we go around putting up articles about, say, the Music Skillcape before it is released, we'll NEVER achieve the goal we set before this dang model viewer was even discovered. I'm simply stating that if this passes, we'll never be a Jagex-approved fansite. We'll be "on the top of everything", but Jagex will hate our guts. In my opinion, I think the Wiki should be more focused on NOT ticking off Jagex and rubbing the fact that we CAN get the models in their faces. Chaos Monk ^{Talk • Sign} 04:31, December 25, 2009 (UTC)

Chaos I guess you missed most of the last discussion, but most of us have accepted that Jagex will not ever approve us. And a lot of of us are quite okay with that. Our focus on this wiki is this wiki, not making Jagex happy. Check this last discussion Forum:Why_Jagex_doesn't_like_us.--Degenret01 04:39, December 25, 2009 (UTC)

Ah, but consensus can change. And so can Jagex and its staff. Remember when Mark Gerhard became CEO, everything in RuneScape changed?   az ^talk   10:37, December 25, 2009 (UTC)

This is a far cry from that though. Not once in Jagex history can I remember them receding/changing policy like this just for the heck of it when they feel it has served them well enough. TEbuddy 13:03, December 25, 2009 (UTC)

Jagex did change the policy on 3rd party software (like SwiftKit), and the policy about screen captures of the conventional game client. At one point, both were considered completely prohibited, and the official policy by Jagex was that the only authorized images were in a specific zip file that could be used on fan websites. These was mainly a bunch of banner ads similar to what Wikia serves up for advertisements to other gaming websites... a sort of "press here to play Runescape". So yeah, Jagex has changed policy on a seeming whim to allow some content that previously was prohibited. Jagex certainly is being much more open about these things than they were in the past, but it also took people willing to push boundaries. There is a point you can push too hard, however, but I don't think this model viewer is one of those areas of "pushing too hard". Private servers are pushing too hard, to give an example, as it does impact the bottom line for Jagex. --Robert Horning 22:54, December 25, 2009 (UTC)

I'm confused, can someone basically sum up/list all the pros and cons of every single argument stated and/or create a nutshell template? Fruit.Smoothie

Comment - Well, after reading the discussion Degen posted a link to, I see why this is discussed. Basically, Jagex is just blowing us off, and the mod in charge of fansites doesn't seem to do his own job and review each site, he just passes the motion on trust. Since we can't get a Runescape mod to give us some backup, and the fact I still don't 100% like this idea overall, I'll just stay impartial. Chaos Monk ^{Talk • Sign} 03:25, December 26, 2009 (UTC)

Contact with the Jagex legal team

This discussion cannot progress until someone contacts the Jagex legal team and attains their opinion on the situation. There currently an elephant in the room blocking all ways to consensus; the legal insecurity of Jagex's response. Stop beating about the bush, and contact the Jagex legal team for thier response, as I am awaiting mine. ---Tortilliachp 03:16, December 30, 2009 (UTC)

We already found out it's against the rules....scroll up to the top and check the links...http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv341/Rwojy/scoot4.pngscooties 03:18, December 30, 2009 (UTC)

rules yes, laws no. Laws are what matter, rules are what Jagex wished mattered. ---Tortilliachp 04:45, December 30, 2009 (UTC)

I agree. We know it is against Jagex rules. We know it is not against the law. But what does Jagex think. Maybe they assumed that some of the 11 year olds playing the game wouldn't realise what the law says. They need to know that we know it is allowed under law, and that some of us are happy to do it. Maybe (extremely unlikely) Jagex will decide to change the rules. Chicken7 ^>talk 09:21, December 30, 2009 (UTC)

I really wish they would change the rules, or at least stop being so secretive about it. Every time we ask all we get is "Please go read section 3.9001 of our rules, reverse-engineering is not allowed, thank you, ~~ Mod Jemflex ~~". Anyway, how would we ask them seriously for one, for two, how would we do it without any of our accounts being penalized? User:Lil diriz 77/Signatures 09:26, December 30, 2009 (UTC)

accounts not being penalized is simple: email Jagex. Create a new email account (i.e. at gmail) for this purpose. Send a query to their legal team lawcontact@jagex.com asking why their terms and conditions don't relate to law. the question is the quality of response gained. I assume the response will be a lot more appropriate by asking legal staff, at least right now a Mod (a support one at that) has given me personalized response that my query is sent on. Thus I assume that means I'll get better response than "please go read our rules". It would be interesting to see if you get different response than me, asking a similar query on this topic. ----Tortilliachp 10:11, December 30, 2009 (UTC)

Good ideas and great points, Tortilliachp. And I fully agree with your first point, Diriz. I can't wait for Robert's 3 page essay on this Cheers, Chicken7 ^>talk 12:26, December 30, 2009 (UTC)

I have already pointed out that we do not, I repeat, do not need to contact the "Jagex legal team" or any other such nonsense. Their answer is quite clear... of course they don't want to have anybody hacking into their code and figuring out how they made the game or store the information. Their answer is going to be quite obvious. Jagex has issued an "official" statement on this issue and let this rest so far as the legal issues of this. All a lawyer for Jagex is going to say is what is in the best interest of Jagex. It is in their best interest that absolutely no fan site exist at all other than something explicitly endorsed and supported by Jagex, and that all content is something which has been approved by a Jagex moderation team. That does not describe this website at all.

If you are worried that you might be the target of some lawsuit, perhaps you should contact an attorney of your own and stay away from this if you think you might be the target of some kind of legal action by Jagex on this issue. I'm pointing out that Jagex doesn't have a leg to stand on in terms of the law, so you are most likely (lawyers always use ambiguous terms like this) not going to have any action at all happen, and if it does go to court, you will win. There is no breaking of the law here, and this clearly is a software interoperability issue in terms of somebody using or even writing a piece of software that will scan the models used in Runescape.

I am asserting that absolutely no account will even be banned if these images are uploaded on this wiki. If you are being a jerk and bragging about images from the model viewer on the official forums and rubbing into everybody's face that a new model that is in the cache is so stinking cool that everybody must see it, yeah, they might have grounds to mute you or tell you to leave it alone. If you persist after a mute, they might ban your account.... mainly for being a jerk. About the only thing this "policy" pronouncement has done is to make discussion about images from the model viewer on the official forums to be something "forbidden". This isn't the official forum, nor does Jagex have editorial control over this wiki. There are other "forbidden" topics on the official forums which are discussed on this wiki, so this standard of only displaying what can be discussed on the official forums doesn't hold water either.

I will repeat my previous point too: There might be legitimate reasons to ban these images from the wiki, but "because it is against the law" certainly isn't one of them. The opinion of Jagex on this issue is completely moot other than a tacit acknowledgment that Jagex doesn't want these images displayed. They also don't want images from riots or glitches being displayed either... do we also ban these kind of images? I assert that we should not bow down to Jagex and let them set editorial policy on this wiki.... particularly on this point. --Robert Horning 15:49, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

You're assuming the response of Jagex. when questioned on legality you expect them to lie. I want to hear what they actually say, not what attitudes you propagate onto jagex. You epitomize my original post in saying the issue won't be resolved untill we hear from the Horse's legal mouth what is going on. you fuel the debate, yet attempt to resolve nothing.

If the jagex legal team say a model veiwer is not illegal (which is reasonable as you claim), they have asserted that we are not breaching the Terms of Service: You must not reverse-engineer, decompile or modify any Jagex Product client software in any way (except to the extent allowed by applicable law). Thus contact with the Jagex legal team may ascertain exactly what you seem to wish personally: there is no reason, legal or in the terms of service, NOT to use model-viewers, whatever mods have said before. Our whole position is in this case completely reversed, as what mods have preivously said does not hold true.

If the Jagex legal team say that using a model viewer is illegal, or more probably against the terms of service, the attitudes you propagate onto jagex currently are their official position, unless they quote the relevant laws (as asked to do). Thus your argument becomes more than a personal opinion, but Jagex policy.

I completely fail to see how you can ignore the conrete and substantial development in the argumentation, neccesitating development in our discussion when the Jagex legal team answers the questions asked. ----Tortilliachp 03:20, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

I am most curious to see if they will respond. Go ahead and send them a message, lets see what happens.--Degenret01 05:20, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

I have, so should you. The more questions they get about it, the more pressing the issue becomes. They sent me a personalized message where they said they had sent my query to " the specialized team", to me a good sign, but i'm not expecting response during the holliday season. ----Tortilliachp 07:42, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand why you are even writing to the "Jagex legal team" in the first place. Certainly you don't represent anybody but yourself, and I sure hope that you aren't implying anything else beyond that, most especially suggesting that you "represent this wiki". Furthermore, the only thing I can see getting accomplished by bringing in "the Jagex legal team" is to stir up a hornet's nest of problems for both yourself and somebody else (presumably me). Absolutely no good will come of this, and pressing the issue in this manner isn't going to help anybody in any way.

In the grand scheme of things, this is small potatoes. There is no reason for Jagex to push this, nor for them to ban accounts for this issue. It really isn't hurting their company economically, nor do these screen captures from the model viewer do anything other than show some potential (it isn't even certain if it will happen) new content that could be introduced into the game. That is the point of this discussion, and how it applies to this wiki.

If you end up getting anything other than responses that have been given earlier, I would be shocked and surprised. No, I don't expect Jagex to "lie" about legal issues, but it isn't in their best interest to tell you anything which is different than has earlier been said. They don't want the model viewer to exist, but it is also impossible to pretend that the model viewer doesn't exist either. There is nothing in the interest of Jagex to go out of their way to inform us about our fair-use (or fair-deailing) rights, or under what legal conditions we could "reverse engineer" their products. For this and all copyrighted computer software, if you want to take screen shots of the software or reverse engineer that software, it is up to you as a consumer to know when you've gone too far... and if you have crossed the line the owner of that software may let you know through legal proceedings and actions. Otherwise, it isn't even worth their time.

I've gone down this road before with other publishers and game companies. It isn't pretty when you get a response from companies like this, and that is even if a company has formal guidelines for what they consider to be acceptable fair-use and what they expect in terms of respect for their product. If you have a legal question, ask an attorney that you have paid for rather than asking an attorney who is paid for and working for somebody else. Then, and only then, will you get a straight answer to a legal question... if it is a legal question you are asking in the first place. There are also free legal clinics and ombudsmans available that might be able to answer these questions if you are concerned about issues like this, but you should also be aware that you get what you pay for as well. Free advise is often not worth the amount you paid for it.

In my case, it is my own selfish interest that I am responding here. I want to see images from a model viewer uploaded and used on this wiki. As such, I am responding about the law and challenges that such uploads are illegal when in fact they are not. I can't get any more clear than this. --Robert Horning 18:23, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

Writing to the Jagex legal team is the only reasonable thing to do as the terms and conditions outlines that the boundries of law determine whether or not reverse engineering is actually against the terms and conditions or not. I write on behlaf of myself, which again is the only natural thing for an individual to do. I don't appreciate the condecending attitude in which you assume I'm a naïve individual.

If clarifying what the terms and conditions actually say is not in Jagex' interest, why would the terms themselves ask users to ask if they wonder about anything within them? they specifically ask users to email their legal team with questions. You choose to pre-empt their response instead. That is what you spend time be-learning in your response; you pre-empt Jagex' legal response, undermining academic argumentation on this forum. If i pre-empt your possible response to my reply, you will again restate your opinion, ignore my argumentation and yet again attribute an opinion to Jagex. I say the only respectable thing to do is to wait for the actual response.

Mods have stated opinions on their official forums that have been incorrect in the past. If your legal analysis is correct, using a model viewer is not against the current terms and conditions. Thus mods saying it is against the terms and conditions would be mistaken. A major premise, and argument many hold on this thread is that this wiki should comply with the terms and conditions. Thus, if using modeled images does not breech the terms and conditions, a major premise in the discussion has changed. How does then my personal query not relate to the issue at hand?

Again, your argumentation only holds water if Jagex chooses to lie in their legal advice. The terms and conditions, where legality is concerned, dictates the use of reverse engineering of game code. If legal, the model viewer is also within the terms and conditions, and so the mods claiming it is not have not done the propper research, or are lying. It is a question of either one or the other, thus any response is enlightening. ---Tortilliachp 18:07, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

You are stirring up trouble here, which is my point. The interpretation of the law by Jagex is going to be in their best interest, not yours. Jagex does seem to be a bit more community oriented than they have in the past, and I suppose that there might be some general guidelines eventually developed for what "good fan sites" might be following in terms of the use of Jagex intellectual property.

This said, there is no reason to "wait for the response" as none is necessary from Jagex... either for them to give a response or for us to act regardless of what that response might be. The law is pretty clear on this topic, and particularly the use of images from a model viewer. It is a derivative copyright issue, where clearly the content contained within the model viewer is derived from Jagex content. As such, just like images captured from the regular user client where you play the game, anything from the model viewer is also copyrighted by Jagex. I don't think that issue is in dispute. Any images uploaded to this wiki from the model viewer must follow copyright law which in the case of fair use has some very specific limitations. Those are limitations that I have not seen many users serious about on this wiki either, I might add, and a gross misunderstanding of the concept of educational fair use that simply doesn't apply on this wiki either.

What really kills me here is that there is some sort of weird twilight zone of copyright law that seems to apply on this wiki, where some things are forbidden that really aren't illegal, and other things are openly encouraged that are being illegally used. Images from the model viewer are one of those strangely forbidden sources that is perfectly legal from a reading of the actual law, while the use of the rune symbols in the wiki logo is one of those things I've tried to point out is actually an illegal use of copyrighted material. The game update messages are something that is a gross violation of copyright that I'm not comfortable about either. It isn't just that copyright is misunderstood, but the boundaries of what is legal and not legal are simply put in the wrong place.

If Jagex wants to grant explicit permission for fan websites to use certain kinds of images or content, that is certainly their privilege and something Jagex can do. They have done that in terms of some screen captures from the user client interface, however there are images on this wiki which pre-date that permission and the policies on this wiki are independent of any permission granted by Jagex in this manner. Jagex doesn't determine the law, but rather it is the Congress and Parliament together with the judicial system in accordance to Common Law (at least in countries with Common Law traditions like the USA and UK). --Robert Horning 17:45, January 3, 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand. Sure, you've mentioned a good few times it's not against the law, we get that now. But why won't you get banned for it. Jagex has clearly stated it violates their terms and conditions...

Our rights

If, acting reasonably, we consider that our Terms and Conditions have or may have been breached, or that it is necessary in order to prevent or stop any harm or damage to us, to any Jagex Product, to other players or the general public, we may Stop (as defined above) any or all accounts of Jagex Products which we think are connected with the offender subject to such right of appeal as is specified on our website. Such actions may result in loss of membership credit and/or loss of real money paid as part of any item / account trading or other prohibited transaction.

Intellectual property rights

Jagex®, RuneScape® and FunOrb® are registered trade marks of Jagex Limited in the United Kingdom, the United States and other countries.

You must not reverse-engineer, decompile or modify any Jagex Product client software in any way (except to the extent allowed by applicable law). You must not use a modified/customised version of the client software or attempt to sub-license it. You must not create or provide any other means by which any Jagex Product may be played by others (including, without limitation, replacement or modified client/server software, server emulators).

Materials (including without limit all information, software, data, text, photographs, graphics, sound and video) placed on any Jagex Product by us or on our behalf are protected by copyright and other intellectual property rights of ourselves or our business partners / suppliers / advertisers. You may not use these materials or any Jagex Product except in accordance with these terms and conditions and for personal (i.e. non-commercial) use only.

You agree that all intellectual property or other rights in any game character, account and items are and will remain our property.

By posting chat or other materials on any Jagex Product, you grant us a non-exclusive, perpetual, worldwide, royalty free, worldwide license to use and/or modify such materials on any Jagex Product as we see fit.

You agree that by submitting any material of any kind to us for any purpose connected with any Jagex Product (non-exhaustive examples are suggestions and ideas for any game or contributions to any Gallery page), you are giving us a non-exclusive, perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free license to use and/or modify the submitted materials as we see fit. You agree to waive any moral rights to the extent permitted by law and that you will not withdraw the submission or attempt to make a charge for its use. Furthermore you guarantee that you are the exclusive copyright holder in relation to the submission and that the submission in no way breaches the rights of any other person or entity.

I do see the part about the applicable law, but how can you be so sure you won't get banned?

Bonziiznob ^Talk

16:37, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

Okay i'm kinda confused now, everyone is talking about quite a few things. What exactly are we trying to figure out now? If we will get banned for it? http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv341/Rwojy/scoot4.pngscooties 20:55, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

I am not certain they won't ban anyone simply out of spite. I wouldn't bet on it. Maybe anyone wanting to upload these photos should make a separate account here to keep their RS account safe.--Degenret01 00:32, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

By pmod and offering information, I'm assuming you are leaning towards my direction. I'm not going to offer Jagex any information about any of our users. I'm simply trying to notify our users of the risk they are taking, and am getting Jagex's help trying to get that information across to some of them.

Bonziiznob ^Talk

15:30, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

The problem I am seeing is that people are overestimating Jagex capabilities. Lets say for a second Jagex actually wanted to ban someone for decompressing the file cache or for posting the images on a public website. Before they would ban anyone they would need certain information to determine guilt.

• An IP address of the user of the website where the images were posted that they could match to a Runescape account. Obtaining this information from an independent website probably wouldn't work out as that independent website is under no legal obligation to cooperate. Specifically here, I seriously doubt a sysop/crat here would give over IP addresses to Jagex if they asked. Even if they they got an IP address matched to an account they would have no way of knowing the circumstances surrounding the incident and would likely face some bad publicity if they went through with the ban. They would also run the risk of banning someone innocent who happens to be using that IP address.
• A way to keep track of every user that connects to the game applet which initiates the cache download done before logon which is when the model viewer "grabs" the latest version of the game files. Unless they have specifically developed a system for keeping track of users as they connect to the applet I doubt a serious review into the matter would turn up more than a giant bunch of random IP addresses in the time period they want.
• Jagex spyware. Some of the fear I am seeing is that through computer Magic Jagex will know that you broke their rules and can somehow ban your account. Short of installing several types of malware onto your computer, it is not possible for them to know and you cannot and will not be banned simply for using the model viewer.

Unless they had the means to obtain and sort the information above there is virtually no way they could truthfully deem someone has committed an offence and breached their terms. From my experience Jagex is fair and would only ban someone if they have evidence of an infraction. Given that they cannot reliably make that judgement, they most likely will not even try given that legally they have no ground. Happy new year everyone. TEbuddy 07:19, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

Why do people insist that Jagex will only act when they have certain knowledge? Are you serious? They have banned many players wrongfully over the years, and continue to do so. And it would be simple for some of their pmods here to tell them what to look for to confirm some of our identities as ingame. We already have one screenshot that definitely shows that a pmod here is more than willing to tell Jagex anything he thinks they may want to know. I am not saying this is likely, but to ignore the possibility is ignorant. There is no action anyone could take against them for getting their account banned for no reason. Maybe Robert can afford an attorney and knows whom to turn to, but I doubt anyone else here does. I just think it would be smart for anyone posting these pics to take the very tiny step of using a different account. Just like locking your house or your car, a tiny easy step for safety's sake.--Degenret01 10:01, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

Have you ever heard of Jagex banning someone or a group of people on this scale based on information they cannot confirm? As I said, Jagex is not foolish. They know very well that banning the few users they can positively match Runescape accounts to will not do anything. With that in mind they would not simply ban anyone they can. It didn't work with bots and gold traders, why would it work with what could be their entire playerbase? TEbuddy 00:06, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I wasn't clear. Here then.'yes I am personally aware of certain accounts that have been banned after committing zero offenses and Jagex not offering any reason for their being banned. Only a few that I personally know of, but of those few I am certain.--Degenret01 01:44, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

I am not saying we should discourage making alternate accounts, do what what you please. I am saying I am extremely confident I will not be banned nor will anyone else over this matter and the idea that it is a bannable offense should no longer be promoted. TEbuddy 06:58, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

Happy new year to you too! And one possible way to find out is by click on the user's name and seeing if the person has mentioned their rs name on their user page (quite a few people have). http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv341/Rwojy/scoot4.pngscooties 07:33, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

Thats not exactly reliable given that anyone can put anything on any page on this wiki. For example I could make a new account post the images and simply put your game account on my userpage. Jagex is not stupid. TEbuddy 08:02, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

Exactly what I was thinking. Just because someone's userpage might say "my RuneScape account is ______", that doesn't mean it's them. They might be lying or playing a joke. Extending this even further, if I, User:Lil Diriz 77, were to upload images from RSMV, and have the sentence "My RuneScape account is Lil Diriz 77" on my userpage, could Jagex even ban me? Maybe this wikian Lil Diriz 77 is a totally different person than the Lil Diriz 77 who plays RuneScape. Jagex can't make assumptions based on what a Wikian's userpage says. That's not fair, what if it was just a coincedence that two people liked the name Lil Diriz 77? This example would work much better with something such as the username Cat, as then it wouldn't be as much of a coincedence, but my point still stands. Jagex can't take information from one site and directly connect it to a player in their database. User:Lil diriz 77/Signatures 10:43, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

This is not illegal, folks!

I can't say this enough. Using the model viewer is not illegal. The official pronouncement listed at the top of this page and discussion applies only to comments made on the official forums, and is essentially a warning that persistent and continued discussion of items found in a model viewer on the official forums could be grounds for a mute or even an account ban. In the context of the official forums, that seems like a logical step to make and as policy seems reasonable for Jagex to do as well.... for a number of reasons.

None of this applies to this wiki in particular, and does nothing to approach the value of having or not having screen captures from the model viewer on this wiki. The only applicable law in this situation is not the Runescape terms of service, but instead it is copyright law, pure and simple. The only other potential kind of law that could apply is a patent that Jagex may have taken on a 3-D model viewer... but they are not asserting patent infringement in this case. Simply put, this is not illegal and raising the specter of illegality is a fallacious argument intent on guilt by association. It does not apply in this case. Period. --Robert Horning 18:44, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

I think a statement from Tebuddy should be quoted here:   az ^talk   12:40, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

“	I dont mean this to be insulting, but I really dont believe that anyone here actually knows what they are talking about when it comes to interpreting copyright/legal issues seeing as how the sum total of our experience lies with wikipedia and other miscellaneous internet reading.	”
	— Tebuddy Forum:Uploading RuneScape music

Was that entirely necessary? I know we disagree but that contributes absolutely nothing to the discussion as does not refute any of the talking points put forward by Robert or myself. Regardless, how many months ago was that? I believe even with minor research you could perfect a basic understanding of legal concepts. TEbuddy 02:05, January 3, 2010 (UTC)

IF it is not illegal, using the model viewer is not against the terms of service. Thus most of this thread contains void argumentation: there is little to no argumentation as to why we should not use images from the model viewer on this reason for any other reasons. The terms of service are applicable as many editors seem to find these as guiding principles for what should and should not be done on this wikia. Under the "equality of editors" principle, what is against the terms of service is therefore highly applicable. The terms of service on this matter are based on the law.

If legal, use the images, thereby also following the terms of service. I have yet to see someone give more than an opinion on why it is legal or not. Law quotations or other proof would be nice, but is hard to come by. ----Tortilliachp 18:15, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

That is right, this is a void argument.... that the terms of service rules apply, in particular in regards to the use of images from a model viewer that are uploaded to this wiki. Those terms of service simply don't apply, thus an argument that it is against the terms of service is a moot issue and irrelevant. --Robert Horning 18:27, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

OK, you want a specific legal quote in terms of what is considered legal for us to do on this wiki. I'll give it to you:

Source: http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/17C1.txt (This is the "official" United States Code, as issued by the U.S. House of Representatives)

“	Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include - the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; the nature of the copyrighted work; the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work. The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.	”
	— United States Code, Title 17, Section 107

This is the only applicable law as it applies to images from the model viewer. The copyright is not in dispute, as it clearly is "owned" by Jagex. We don't have permission from Jagex to use images from the model viewer, and it is unlikely that we will ever get that permission. As such, the only governing law is the fair-use exception to copyright law where we on this wiki are giving critical commentary of how this game is being used, and for writing tutorials on how to play the game. This is the law that applies. There is legal precedence that you could also look into, as there have been numerous court rulings on fair-use as well, so keep in mind that fair use is a legal defense for duplication of a copyrighted image. The copyright owner can assert ownership over images and claim that the images are not being used consistent with established "industry" practices of fair-use.

This particular law applies as the server for this wiki is located in the USA. As to complicated issues like an Australian editing on this wiki and that the copyright is claimed by a UK company, that can be a complicating factor, but ultimately to shut down this wiki or to take action against a particular user on this wiki would have to be done in American courts. --Robert Horning 18:05, January 3, 2010 (UTC)

why are we still talking about this being legal or illegal? Robert, you've provided us with enough information to tell us it is legal for us to do it. I've provided enough information to inform us that it can get players banned from the game. The rest is up to everyone else to decide. We should just wrap up this convo.

Bonziiznob ^Talk

19:22, January 3, 2010 (UTC)

You will not be banned for associating yourself with the model viewer. TEbuddy 19:52, January 3, 2010 (UTC)

How are you so sure? I doubt that jmods will be happy if they come onto here, look through images of unreleased content, and somehow link the wiki account to a player (because most of us have ingame contact info), I'm willing to bet that anything could happen. Chaos Monk ^{Talk • Sign} 20:03, January 3, 2010 (UTC)

You may be banned for bringing up the model viewer on the official forums and being persistent about images found with the model viewer. Starting a thread on the official forums about the music cape, to give an example, may get the thread locked down and get you muted or banned. Even the banning is highly unlikely and I would suggest that would only get you a forum mute... if even that. Talking about the model viewer in-game might get some schizophrenic j-mod to get you muted as well (I suggest even that is highly unlikely.... even if "reported"). This wiki is not the official forums or anything associated with the official forums or even associated with Jagex, which is why statements like "it can get players banned from the game" simply isn't true. Being a member of the wiki community and allowing images from the model viewer to be posted on this wiki will not get you banned. Even using the model viewer to capture images and uploading them to this wiki won't get you banned, even if you openly advertise your user account name with your Runescape account name.

This is a fallacious argument, and the above statements apply only to content posted on the official forums. I should note that even on the official forums it isn't quite so cut and dried, and all that was said is "you shouldn't talk about this". This is interpreting far, far more into the situation and statements by asserting that a player who is editing on this wiki is going to be banned merely because they happen to edit in the same article that has an image which has been uploaded to this wiki which is in turn a screen capture from a model viewer of the Runescape user client. That will not happen. As long as you follow copyright law, we are not going to be "in trouble" if we use these images on this wiki. Even raising the issue of an account ban is completely inappropriate and a lie.

All the above conversation mentions is a "rule" that applies to the official forums only. Do not read anything more into it than that. BTW, I do consider anything found in the user client cache to be "released content", and IMHO it is put there deliberately by Jagex. This includes other hints of future content by seeing new rooms or areas near existing content. This happened before the Summoning update (where a Summoning store could be seen in certain areas of the game before the release of Summoning) and some other updates as well. I would call that an Easter Egg, not unreleased content. --Robert Horning 20:11, January 3, 2010 (UTC)

BTW, a slightly humorous take on fair use can be found on this YouTube video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJn_jC4FNDo

While there is a little bit of copyright advocacy on the video as well, it does a good job of both critical commentary and parody fair-use simultaneously with one of the most prolific litigators of copyrighted content: The Walt Disney Corporation. This video is well worth the 10 minutes of your life to view this, and both informative and entertaining at the same time. It was made by the Stanford University Law School in its Center for Internet and Society. The video demonstrates fair use by using fair use to get its point across. As wheels within wheels, it even has used fair use of Disney using fair use. --Robert Horning 20:18, January 3, 2010 (UTC)

That, my friend, is epic. Finally a good (though biased) explanation of it. Seriously, everyone should watch it. The sheer funniness is enough reason to do so, and you'll learn something too! Thanks, Robert Oil4 ^Talk 17:21, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - We've been looking at all of this from a legal standpoint and not from a moral standpoint. Sure, we could probably do this and have no legal repercussions, but is it the right thing to do? Honestly, if Jagex doesn't want us poking about in their cache files and stated so *very* clearly, why do some of us keep suggesting to completely disregard Jagex's stance on this matter and keep on poking about? I'm sorry, but I don't believe we should condone this type of behavior, especially when Jagex has clearly stated not to do so.

1. REDIRECT User:N7 Elite/Signature 05:53, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

Because who are they? They are not our betters, they are not superior, they are not morally or ethically more knowledgeable. They write a game. We play it. Period. They can say how we play the game, but anything outside of that is just not for them to say.--Degenret01 06:53, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

What I meant was that if we're having to scrutinize real-world laws in order to see whether or not we'll get in legal trouble for using images from the cache, then we probably shouldn't allow users to post images from the cache on the Wiki. If the debate's gone to that extent just to prove whether or not we can do such a thing, then I feel that it would be morally wrong to support using images from the cache on the Wiki. That's just my view on the matter, though.

1. REDIRECT User:N7 Elite/Signature 07:07, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

The invocation of real-world laws and potential (not actual) threats of account banning are being used here to scare the wiki community into banning these images when such a law can't be shown or such a ban documented even as a rumor as having happened. It is these scare tactics that I am refuting when I am asking for facts that don't present themselves and showing the exact opposite conclusion when closely examined. As for if this is the right thing to do or not, I accept that... if you can give a moral basis for that along the lines of a spoiler prevention or not disclosing content before it has been officially released. I will point out, however, that such an argument needs to be consistent and applied broadly to other content than just this model viewer, and has other implications as well. I just don't buy the argument that some j-mod who is apparently unfamiliar with copyright laws (they wouldn't have had to ask somebody else first when the issue came up on the official forums) is making a pronouncement that applies to this wiki in terms of policy we make here. That is a fallacious argument and one that for me simply can't be allowed to stand.

The fact that real-world laws are being examined here is a part of this refutation, as the term "this is illegal" has been brandied around as rationale for why these images should not be allowed on this wiki. It most certainly isn't illegal. --Robert Horning 22:02, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

Comments @Tebuddy: Are you kidding me? Of course the quote was necessary. I was just trying to point out that the users here are not lawyers. While anyone can understand legal concepts, they are not entitled to pass judgement on issues that have not been decided in a court of law. If there was a case in which the Courts decided that it is okay to publish unreleased copyrighted content stored in a client's computer, please provide a reference. Otherwise, one cannot simply claim "This is not illegal, folks!" because I believe that there are currently no precedents.

We don't have to worship Jagex and follow whatever they say. We are an independent wiki, and Jagex is not god. But we have to remember that without Jagex and the Gower brothers, there would never be a RuneScape. And without RuneScape, there will not be a wiki based on the game. They had intentionally tried to protect their game code using obfuscation. They have blocked and discouraged players from discussing unreleased content in forum threads. Jagex has done everything they can to dissuade us from discussing unreleased content in-game. Obviously, they hate it... While users can assume that it may be legal to do it here, I haven't seen a single valid reason why we should actually publish unreleased content here...

Pushing aside legal and moral aspects, perhaps we should discuss the pros/cons of publishing and discussing unreleased content?   az ^talk   10:55, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

So you want us to cower in fear of their legal precedent until someone can provide you with a painfully over specific legal example? Fair use applies and so does common sense. Jagex wont take legal action because they can't take legal action. If they cared as much as you seem to think they do, I think they would have cut their losses and stopped storing 128kb of data on users computers years ago, or taken legal action against the blatantly illegal runescape software developers over at moparisthebest and scythe and shown everyone that behavior like this is not ok.

Morally whats the problem? Its not stealing because fair use applies and you are not required to pay for the files stored on your computer by the applet. The only hiccup is that they have indirectly addressed the matter on the forums simply by declaring silence. TEbuddy 16:22, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

As for your quote that you made here, out of context, I am presuming that you think I am full of it (whatever "it" is) and that I have no possible reason to have studied copyright or intellectual property law unless I'm a certified member of a state or national bar association. This was a low blow and something that I thought as explicitly an ad hominem directly questioning the very premise of my argument. Essentially your logic, Azliq, is something like this: Since I don't know jack about copyright law, anything I say about copyright law is irrelevant and has no basis for even being raised in this forum.

BTW, while this particular issue of content from a model viewer to be displayed on a public wiki has not been tested in a court of law, there are indeed legal precedence issues that have a matter of case law that can be cited, and there is also statutory law that I have explicitly mentioned above. The reason I have studied copyright law for the past 30+ years is that this is my "bread and butter", this is precisely how I have earned money to pay for the essential things of life, paid for a home to raise my family, and to follow the wishes of my heart. I see this as no different than a master electrician having a deep understanding of the electrical code in spite of the fact that they are not an attorney. Heck, I would suspect that a typical journeyman electrician will likely understand the legal code that is the local construction electrical code better than even the attorneys who draft the revisions to that code on an annual basis. Any veteran author who is worth anything at all will also have a deep understanding of copyright law. If a court ruling or a new act by a national legislature could wipe out your ability to earn a living, wouldn't you think it would be worth paying attention to what is going on? --Robert Horning 22:16, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Bah, humbug. I've said what I wanted to say, and others have said what they wanted to say. I simply do not want to argue further for the sake of arguing. I'll admit that I'm pretty bad, very bad in fact, at arguing about these controversial stuff. I'll leave the wrangling to other users with more experience.

Please accept my deepest apologies if I touched some nerves. I love this wiki and its community... So please do not hold grudges against me, as everything I have done and said so far is for the sake of the wiki. Nothing personal.   az ^talk   09:41, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

Moving on...