Forum:Runescape model viewer

Forums: Yew Grove > Runescape model viewer

Template:Heated

hi, everybody. at the end of this thread, i said i was going to make a compromise when my new keybord came. unfortunately, the thread got closed before my keybord came. i have my keybord now, so how about this:

the runescape cache files would have its own article. all images from it would be kept in this article, or possibly on a subpage(s). since we are only guessing at what the images are of, they would have no names and would not appear in any articles other then the cache article. this would avoid speculation and guessing on names, whilst also avoiding guessing on what they are/when they will appear.

regarding jagex being opposed to this: first off, as you may have guessed, jagex does not support us using these images. however, there is no penalties for using them- jagex cannot take legal action against us, nor can they ban every single account that is mentioned on userpages. i know the wiki is not for encouraging rule breaking, however we also are supposed to ignore all rules as long as we are improving the wiki. if viewing these images hurt someone, we should not do it. however, it does no serious, longlasting, or unnecessary damage to us, jagex, or really anybody for that matter, nor does it harm gameplay in any way.

also, jagex already does not respect us, thus, i dont feel we have anything to lose in that department, and certainly something to gain.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 3rd age farcaster (talk) on 14:50 March 26, 2010.

Summary of arguments

For	Against
Jagex
The models are obtained using free open-source third party software The files are compressed and stored by Jagex in our computers using standard compression algorithms that many software developers use freely. There is no effort made by Jagex to protect these images It is perfectly legal to publish these model images under "fair use" If legal, reverse engineering is not against the terms and conditions. The model viewer may fit the definition of the "interoperability" exception permitting legal reverse engineering.	Reverse engineering is against Jagex's Terms & Conditions if illegal "You must not reverse-engineer, decompile or modify any Jagex Product client software in any way (except to the extent allowed by applicable law)" J-Mods have advised against discussing any non-Jagex third party software in the official forums
Speculative nature
Possibly Easter eggs and leaks planted by Jagex Possible early heads up on soon to be released items, quests, and areas or works in progress.	Difficult to distinguish fanart from genuine model viewer images
Existing wiki policies
The wiki is not... Jagex. We are an independent wiki. If it is to improve the wiki, ignore all rules. Granularity: The wiki is for all things about Runescape, including features Jagex does not want revealed.	The wiki is not... for promoting rule breaking. The wiki is not... a crystal ball. Image and media policy: Files obtained from Jagex's game cache are not allowed.

Discussion

Support - Read the other thread[1] as any argument for or against has already been covered. I still feel strongly that we are not disrespecting Jagex or weaseling our way around rules and regulations, and that the images in the cache would be both fun and interesting to include on the wiki. TEbuddy 19:23, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

Question - Why couldn't Jagex take legal action against Wikia for it? http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/3921/thehimmemote.png^Gone. 19:34, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

Oi, my ignorance, nevermind. http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/3921/thehimmemote.png^Gone. 19:35, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

Support - I was also thinking about something like this, but I couldn't quite make up my mind what to put in the proposal. I think that this is a good compromise, so I support this - as long as we are very careful about these images, by which I mean that we should make sure that they aren't used on other pages, and that any speculation about them should be removed. Oil4 ^Talk 22:39, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

Changed to Strong Oppose - Per my talk page. I thought that you meant that we should put images of all things in the RSMV about which we don't know what they are on one page, so I supported. But then you said that you actually want to put all RSMV images on one page. Now THAT is a waste of space! There's hundreds, thousands of images in that cache! Oil4 ^Talk 08:56, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Per Oli. It's about time this topic came to a close. ~  Sentry Telos ^Talk  23:23, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - It's still against Jagex's rules... --Liquid^Talk 00:20, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

comment- they can take no action against us, nor is it hurting anyone. yes it is against jagex's rules, but would it be against any other rules? rules are ment to protect people and keep things fair. this does no harm nor does it give anybody an unfair advantage. i dont think its right to force all wikians to blindly follow unjust rules without questioning. 3rd age farcaster 01:17, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

RS:IAR only applies to Wiki policies. We have to follow all other rules, including Jagex's. Just because they don't enforce them does not give us the right to evade them. --Liquid^Talk 01:25, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

since it applies to wiki policies, we can ignore the rule saying that we have to follow jagex's rules. and do you support blindly following pointless or worse rules? 3rd age farcaster 01:32, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Jagex's rules do not apply here because of the Wiki policy that says it does. It applies because we are all clients of Jagex. So, we cannot use IAR to override Jagex rules. I don't like to follow stupid or pointless rules, but while they are rules, we have to follow them. Otherwise, if we establish the precedent of only following the rules we like, we'd be setting ourselves up for a state of anarchy. If we don't like a rule, then we should move to get it repealed. Outright disobedience isn't the solution. --Liquid^Talk 01:40, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

we CANNOT move to repeal jagex's (stupid and pointless) no cache images rule. 3rd age farcaster 01:47, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

So just live with it. --Liquid^Talk 01:53, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Slight oppose - Per Liquidhelium.   Zap0i ^Talk  01:19, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose (Changed to support below) - Because I can. This is not civil disobedience as you like to think with "i dont think its right to force all wikians to blindly follow unjust rules without questioning." You are playing Jagex Ltd.'s IP, you are in their domain and you follow (blindly or quit their games) their rules, policy and terms of service. They have any and all rights to do with what they want and can create any rule they wish to have. Does this mean it's right? Well, yes it does. It's their property, ever heard the phrase "Get off my land!"? Template:Signatures/Bluesonic43 01:56, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

they can create any rule they want- but do we have to follow it? NO. we are NOT jagex, we are NOT on their property. 3rd age farcaster 02:01, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

If you want to play their game, then you have to follow their rules. No one is forcing you to follow the rules, but if you don't want to follow them, then just quit RS. --Liquid^Talk 02:02, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

maby i have. maby i will. it is irrevelent, as (this is directed at both of you) i am not playing jagex ltd's ip, nor am i in their domain. i am on rs wiki. 3rd age farcaster 02:04, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Well, if you're not playing, then what's the problem? The only way to get those files is by playing RS. So, anyone that plays has those files and will have to obey Jagex's rules regarding them. Anyone that doesn't play won't have those files and has no rules to worry about. --Liquid^Talk 02:06, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)again, me playing or not does not matter. it is your opinion that if im not gunna follow their rules i should quit/not have the files. are you trying to force me to do as you what you would do? 3rd age farcaster 02:13, March 27, 2010 (UTC))

I believe that you agreed to Jagex's Terms and Conditions when you registered for your account. So, you're bound to their rules. --Liquid^Talk 02:17, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Comment Please quote exactly what rule is being broken in exactly which way and specify how it is applicable. One mod saying it is against the rules is not sufficient for this purpose. Be specific if you wish your argument to have merit.--Degenret01

The problem with quoting the rules is that RS rules themselves are extremely vague for things that do not deal with in-game activity. The forum post of a J-mod is the most reliable source that we have from Jagex, so I advocate that as the de jure basis for this rule. --Liquid^Talk 02:16, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Being a J-mod means he can program games, it says zero about his ability to understand the rules and applicable laws. --Degenret01 02:18, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Please learn this, everyone has a right to their opinion. I opposed more or less due to your comments and attacking volatile nature to those who you think have no reason to oppose or whose points are invalid. If you will not stop acting sophomoric towards the concept of "I'm right your wrong" can-do attitude, you may be thought of as such. I also based my opinion on posts on the RuneScape Official Forums by Jagex staff members. Now we get to where this is a "fansite." While we are not recognized by them, we are still liable to have Jagex request the removal of any image, and possibly the closure of the Wiki in the most extreme case. I request you let people have their own opinions, this isn't George Carlin It's Bad for Ya: "So the next time some asshole says to you, 'I have a right to my opinion,' you say, 'Oh yeah? Well, I have a right to my opinion, and my opinion is that you have no right to your opinion.' Then shoot the fuck and walk away!" Template:Signatures/Bluesonic43 02:19, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

i am not challanging your opinion. and what do you expect me to do? just let ppl oppose without presenting my side of the arguement? i dont want to seem like a easy-to-anger idiot, but honestly- should i be just sitting back and watching? your not doing, nor is liquid, nor is degenret. 3rd age farcaster 02:24, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - We don't need a repeat of previous events friends, we have already drawn this on long enough. Literally all arguments we have all seen have been presented in some form. Now my personal opinion on the issue of "its wrong because Jagex says so" is that it has zero legal grounds which Robert Horning did an excellent job of proving in the other thread (see my first post for link). Liquid, your reasoning is fallacious at best. You are welcome to your opinion of course, but stating your opinion and hiding behind it like a brick wall is not helping anything. While you are forced to obtain images from the game in some form does not mean you can simply apply rules to them like a big legal bandage, it just doesn't work that way. I encourage you to read through Roberts posts in the previous thread on the legal side of it to get a better understanding of the situation. TEbuddy 05:49, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Changed to slight support - Because of Robert Horning's discussion point(s) in the previous thread. However (and I assume that this would happen anyway) these images would be replaced with an actual in-game screen capture due to the cached images only retaining standard detail textures. Worse case scenario, Jagex requests the removal of the images and/or severing any (?) ties they have to us. Template:Signatures/Bluesonic43 18:25, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

the images would be in a special cache article- you couldnt add non-cache images to the article, nor could u add any cache images to pages outside of the cache page. this is to limit speculation and to keep these images seporate, as they should be. thanks for changing your position. 3rd age farcaster 19:10, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Only cache images of stuff that isn't in-game yet would be put on there, right? Oil4 ^Talk 19:24, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

but how do we know if it is in game or not? i dont really care aether way, but it seems like it could cause speculaton. 3rd age farcaster 19:46, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

By looking at the image! I thought this proposal was about putting all the RSMV images which show something that is not in game on one page, so I supported (because just checking that page regularly would then avoid speculation), but if this is about replacing all images with RSMV images... Then I would oppose extremely strongly. Oil4 ^Talk 20:09, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Explanation please Oil4 ^Talk 22:14, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - I'm quite confused on what the benefits of using the model viewer would be. Can't we get just as high (or higher) quality images using the Orb of oculus? --Aburnett ^(Talk) 20:07, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Jagex commonly stores unreleased or work in progress items, textures, areas etc in the cache that you could not obtain using any ingame method such as the orb. TEbuddy 20:28, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. Wouldn't using images of unreleased content violate RS:NOT#CRYSTAL though? We have no proof the items depicted in these images will ever be released. --Aburnett ^(Talk) 20:31, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

My intention is not to be rude, but if you read the other thread all of this is covered in extreme detail. To answer though, we are not making the assumption that the images will be released nor stating what we think as fact. We are simply documenting everything we know about Runescape including what is in the cache. As an example, before the dragon pickaxe and platebody were released cache versions of them were available. Images that are unclear or unfinished to the point of being incomprehensible are to be tagged letting everyone know that there is no official explanation and offering ideas as to what it could be based on official Jagex announcements. TEbuddy 20:39, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your understanding Tebuddy, you're not being rude at all. It's true, I was simply too lazy to go back and read over that whole thread. I'll admit ignorance and step out of this discussion --Aburnett ^(Talk) 20:51, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose per Liquidhelium. Putting this into action would break all of the rules of common sense that I know. ShinyUnown _{T | C | E} 20:33, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - Per Liquidhelium. Halo^Talk 20:35, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

You guys really should read the other thread. This is not against the rules. Any official Jagex comments on the issue has revealed that they do not want users talking about it in the forums, which makes sense considering no users are allowed to post links or images because of potential security risks. TEbuddy 20:39, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

comment - please, somebody, give me a reason why these rules should exist, instead of saying lets blindly follow them. 97.114.139.204 21:17, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

that last comment was mine, sorry. idk why my account logged out o_o 3rd age farcaster 21:19, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Helium did...because we all play runescape we are bound to follow Jagex's rules. Halo^Talk 21:25, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

You cant just create a reason out of thin air that does not make any sense and then apply it to every situation. This is not in game, we are not Jagex, they do not recognize us. Those rules do not apply to us. Even if they did, the model viewer does not break any ingame rules and does not breach the terms of service. TEbuddy 21:29, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Read the above discussion some more, particularly helium's and ryan m's comments. Halo^Talk 21:37, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

You don't think he already has? Oil4 ^Talk 22:03, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

From his statement, it doesn't look like it. Halo^Talk 22:04, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

It seems more like you don't understand what he said, than like he read the discussion. Oil4 ^Talk 22:06, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps not, but I don't really think we are getting anywhere here. Halo^Talk 22:07, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

can we just leave the rules out of this? oppose points such as that this encourages speculation and that the images are bad quality are valid- we can discuss them, make compromises, etc. but with the rules objection, we cannot make a deal, we cannot agree, the only possible outcome is that the thing is rejected, no matter how much we try to reach out and be constructive. 97.114.139.204 22:57, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

omg wtf logged out again... that above is my comment needless to say..-.- sorry... 3rd age farcaster 22:59, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

What I am saying Haloolah is that you cannot apply this made up rule to the discussion when it does not exist. Just because you think the model viewer is against the rules, does not mean it is. If it was, people who were opposed in the previous discussion would have no problem finding where in the terms or rule list that it is. We have already determined that extracting images from a file archive like the cache is no more reverse engineering than extracting images from a zip file, and hence does not breach the Runescape TOS. If your intention is the oppose compromise simply on some obscure moral ground that you refuse to defend simply because it is your opinion, I wish you would remove your vote and no longer post because this discussion has been on the ropes for months now.. TEbuddy 23:30, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

I'm not going to remove my vote. And I will continue to post as long as I believe I have something useful to say. Halo^Talk 23:34, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

All you have repeated is that you think its against the rules and as such should not be considered in any way. If you have something more to add I am all ears. I am not trying to silence you, just asking you to look past your personal beliefs and see the perspective of those who made the compromise and want the changes made based on what we have determined legally possible. TEbuddy 23:38, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

haloolah, what can i do that would make the proposal more appealing to you? 3rd age farcaster 23:48, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Nothing really. Halo^Talk 23:54, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Neutral - Like said above, it is against Jagex's rules. However, ultimately there isn't much that Jagex could do about it. Ajraddatz _Talk 23:43, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

It's not about what Jagex would do about it, it's about us as their players respecting their rules. Halo^Talk 23:54, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

And that is an argument based on nothing more than how you feel personally about rules and respect. We are trying to reach a compromise that will benefit everyone here, and we all have a huge difference in how we lead our personal lives. Opposing like you are now and unwilling to compromise is why this issue has been delayed for months now. TEbuddy 23:58, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Wait what? A huge difference in how we lead our personal lives? Seriously...I'm starting to wonder. I don't see how this has any affect on our personal lives. I'm lost. Halo^Talk 00:01, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

The point is this. Instead of me saying "Well I believe rules are there to be broken" in response to you and sitting behind it like a brick wall, we need to remove personal feelings from the equation. You are effectively stonewalling everyone who supports the compromise with your personal views and contributing nothing. The compromise so far has seen absence of personal feelings and is based on legality and practicality and everyone is willing to modify it to suit collective agreement. TEbuddy 00:22, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

It's not a personal feeling. I keep my personal feelings (drama) in real life, we have enough of that, no need to introduce it into a game. Halo^Talk 00:28, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

So then why should we respect Jagex nonexistent rule? TEbuddy 03:20, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

I respect the arguments in both directions, and while I lead towards oppose, I still think that the supporters have a point. Ajraddatz _Talk 23:55, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Since some users have decided not to re-read the past thread, I have copied Azliqs chart and modified it based on the older discussion to prevent users supporting or opposing based on arguments that have already been covered. TEbuddy 23:53, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

i changed the table to better fit my compromise. anybody object to the changes? 3rd age farcaster 01:05, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - I'd like to get this out there. As 3rd age farcaster has said on my talk page, this page would contain all RSMV images. Every single image in that cache. This is not about putting images of unreleased stuff on the wiki, it's about putting low-quality images of everything on the wiki, even if we already have better images. Please re-think your vote if you also thought that this was only about images of unreleased stuff. Oil4 ^Talk 08:58, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

LOL, nothing set in stone, if you want that changed we can come to an agreement.....not 2 mention there is no limit on space -.-... 3rd age farcaster 13:32, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe physically there is no limit in space, but what would you say about moderating something like that? For example, if all these images are mass-uploaded, that would flood the upload log and thus make it extremely easy for people to upload vandal images. Of course that would be a one-time issue, but there is still the nightmare of moderating something like that.

And another point, putting thousands of images on a page. Maybe you use a Cray Jaguar, but most of have computers that simply wouldn't be able to handle that kind of lag. Oil4 ^Talk 14:46, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

can we keep this discussion on your talk page? im basically posting the same message 2 times. 3rd age farcaster 14:53, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

I'd rather put it here so that it's easier for everyone to read and contribute. Oil4 ^Talk 14:56, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

to liquid, and haloo: why should we follow jagex's rules? we are not jagex, and we CAN show information on the wiki that jagex does not want on the wiki. even "Scamming, and other activity in violation of the fifteen Jagex rules, generally hurts the game and is not something we as editors wish to promote." shouldnt really include this, as this does not generally hurt the game. 3rd age farcaster 14:59, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

I don't like the idea of dumping the entire cache, that does seem like a mess. It would be interesting to upload them all into one directory as a gallery for users who may not know how/want to browse the cache on their own, but I was thinking we would look strictly for images that we can speculate on based on other evidence we have available. Thats not to say we should not do it, but lets stick to getting the compromise approved before we reject it based on maybes. TEbuddy 19:12, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - I have not read any of the arguments except in the summary, and I am not participating in this discussion because I really don't know enough to make an opinion, but it looks like we should be having a discussion to change the Images and Media policy before we do anything else. User:Dave Lopo/Sig 17:52, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

yea. a change to that is also in order, imo, however this was, maby isnt anymore, a seporate issue. 3rd age farcaster 18:40, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

Proposal

Since the original proposal isn't getting anywhere, I think this may be a better compromise:

We check all images in the cache and make a list of images of which the subject is not in-game yet. Then, we upload only those images. The images all go on one big page. If there turns out to be a lot of them, we might decide to split the page into categories, but I think that won't be the case. Then what we write about each image is this:

• Its number
• If possible, when it was put in the cache

This would mean that there is no speculation.

I think this is a better compromise than the previous one, because this way we wouldn't end up uploading thousands of images, just a few. I don't like the idea of these images, but it has been pretty much proven that they're not against the rules. Also, think about how all this extra information could benefit the wiki.

Discussion

Support - As nom. Oil4 ^Talk 19:38, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - we wouldnt be uploading thousands of images under my proposal aether, just thousands of numbers on seporate sub-pages. also, you would be speculating as to weather it was in game or not- look at the wilderness castle or saradomin GWD. those are all ingame, but ppl might not reconise stuff from them. i prefer my proposal, but will go with this if nessary. 3rd age farcaster 19:43, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

Support - guess ill go with this for now, maby change it later. 3rd age farcaster 15:43, March 29, 2010 (UTC)

I think a group of users will be able to pick out which images really aren't in game, or at least cannot be seen. Oil4 ^Talk 19:45, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Excellent. ~  Sentry Telos ^Talk  21:01, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

Support if changed slightly - I don't think we should discourage speculation, and it doesn't seem to be the hiccup most of the opposers see. Speculation can be a really good thing regardless of what our ridiculous and very old policy says. TEbuddy 23:36, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

it depends, lol. speculating that the odd old man at barrows is sliske is entirely possible and good, however speculating that the grim reaper is zaros.. not so much. 3rd age farcaster 23:55, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

But that's the problem. When is something speculation, and when is something nonsense? There is good evidence that the odd old man is Sliske - there is no evidence as to what those cache images mean. Oil4 ^Talk 05:29, March 29, 2010 (UTC)

As long as we are neutral about it and base our speculation on confirmed information, then we are in the clear. For example, before the dragon pickaxe was released we knew that Jagex mentioned dragon skilling items would eventually be released. So if we find a dragon colored pick shaped tool, we can speculate that the image in question is the dragon pickaxe, or a variation of the dragon pickaxe. TEbuddy 05:38, March 29, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - Opposing because of morally, encouraging rule breaking, biting the hand that feeds us, etc. Same reasons previously. I am really sorry, but I will never be able to support a proposal while these concerns are are not nullified. The problem is that there is really no middle ground for this to be placed. _{Evil Yanks} ^talk 06:03, March 29, 2010 (UTC)

Once again, this is not against Jagex rules or disrespecting them in any way. We have already established that they have discouraged discussion of third party applications of any type on the official forums. This does not address the issue in any way nor address the legality. The wealth of information and discussion we could bring to the wiki by allowing images to be extracted from the cache is mind numbingly amazing, and I tire of people constantly assuming Jagex feels a certain way simply because they have remained silent. TEbuddy 06:39, March 29, 2010 (UTC)

Jagex have said on multiple occasions that they will ban any user who accesses the files. Caleb even has a photo of them saying it in-game if you think that the forums is the problem. It is against how Jagex interprets the rules, so as far as I can tell nothing is wrong with my moral objections. _{Evil Yanks} ^talk 06:47, March 29, 2010 (UTC)

Please find me this picture if you would be so kind, I just went through calebs talk page, and the other thread and found no mention of it. TEbuddy 08:36, March 29, 2010 (UTC)

I think Evil Yanks was referring to this image: User:Azliq7 08:44, March 29, 2010 (UTC)

http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu124/calebchiam/ModCrowontheimages2.png

Thank you AZ :). As for the image itself, ridiculous. Caleb is essentially asking the mod to say reverse engineering is illegal which any Jagex mod who knows their own TOS would agree too. It seems as though not even Mod Crow is familiar with exactly how the model viewer or game cache works. I also think we have established by now that decompressing a file archive is not reverse engineering or "messing with game code". TEbuddy 09:06, March 29, 2010 (UTC)

Erm, did Mod Crow say "see accounts banned" or "see accounts"? It's important since if he meant "see accounts", then that can be inferred as meaning that, to be blunt, Mod Crow has no idea what he is talking about. Hello71 22:04, March 29, 2010 (UTC)

I am pretty sure he just broke his sentence up so he didn't get cut off by the small chat window. TEbuddy 01:00, March 30, 2010 (UTC)

How exactly would they ban us? Oil4 ^Talk 14:12, March 29, 2010 (UTC)

they wouldnt. jagex is full of idiots, and all i can imagine is that they want to look tough to ppl who are considering viewing these files. maby theres another reason, but i cant think of what it would b. 15:22, March 29, 2010 (UTC)

God, this has all become so pedantic, arguing over how you interpret how Jagex interprets their rules. Without Jagex doing a backflip and giving people the go ahead to browse through those files, I don't think that I will ever support this. _{Evil Yanks} ^talk 02:14, March 30, 2010 (UTC)

"Pedantic: insisting on strict adherence to formal rules or literal meaning at the expense of a wider view." example: a few people blindly following jagex's non-existent or unnecessary rules while in the process depriving the community of something a majority supports. yea, i think that sums it up. thanks yanks. 3rd age farcaster 02:23, March 30, 2010 (UTC)

Asking a Jagex mod whether reverse engineering is against the rules or not when this issue is not about reverse engineering hardly gives the final yes or no on everything. If I were a public relations person in Mod Crows position and I had little experience in technical side of the game and was merely answering player questions, I would probably have spit out the same garbage from the rulebook that he did. Trying to use that photo as evidence for us to not pursue this is simple dishonesty. TEbuddy 03:24, March 30, 2010 (UTC)

3rd age - I have never heard anyone use pedantic to mean that before. This is what I meant "overly concerned with minute details or formalisms". I am not sure what you are trying to achieve with insults and sarcasm...

TEbuddy - At least we are moving forward since you have just admitted that against the "garbage from the rulebook" to do the the reverse-engineer-model-viewer-thing. Saying that it is against the rulebook to me seems no different to saying that it is against Jagex's interpretation of the rules. I might just be strange, but I trust Mod Crow on this situation since he along with the few other Jagex Lite-posting Jagex mods would probably be the only J mods who would need to know this kind of information. Jagex Lite constantly get these kind of obscure questions. _{Evil Yanks} ^talk 06:53, March 30, 2010 (UTC)

I didn't admit anything. My point was to say that in a situation where Jagex has no official stance like this one, that a mod who is caught on the spot would default to the closest rule that can be applied to the situation. If Mod Crowe is not familiar with how the model viewer works or how file archives in general work he is going to believe that in order to view the files you need to manipulate the game code or reverse engineer something which is not the case.TEbuddy 07:34, March 30, 2010 (UTC)

Te, ill assume you removed this by accident.

Sorry, total accident. TEbuddy 20:34, March 30, 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, totally misinterpreted what you said. I thought you meant that he was just wasn't from tech support and didn't know what he was talking about, not that he wasn't from tech support and misinterpreted the question. To me this is too far. You have been talking about how jagex have never given their opinion on the subject, and when they do you disregard it since they are not knowledgeable enough on the subject. He must have some knowledge on the subject, as he thought without any telling him that it had something to do with game code. I am just going to assume good faith that he does know what he is talking about since he is a Jagex spokesman. _{Evil Yanks} ^talk 02:53, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

oh wate, wtf- he said MESSING with the game code. if somebody says "dont MESS with my science project while im gone", they mean dont touch it. you can look at it all you want, but you shouldnt start taking things apart and stuff. idk, but is it possible that crow thought that we were talking about something like hacking the code, rather then just looking at stuff? that would also cover the banning thing- hacking/glitch abusing/glitch causing(?) is all traceable and bannable. 3rd age farcaster 15:35, March 29, 2010 (UTC)

yanks, i am nor insulting you, nor am i being sarcastic. i am using your own words against you, which is surprisingly effective during debates such as this. it was clear to me that you hadnt ment that, and that you had ment definition #2. however, you had still gotten me to get off my computer and look in my dictionary and find a word very well suited to my cause, so i thinked you for it. 3rd age farcaster 14:16, March 30, 2010 (UTC)

Using my words against me is taking something that I have said previously and using it ironically against me later. Using definition 2 supports the context it was in perfectly, definition 1 makes no sense whatsoever. _{Evil Yanks} ^talk 02:52, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

You're acting like they have gone out of their way to let us know its not ok, and I am simply ignoring it. This is the only time I have ever seen a real Jagex response on the issue aside from when threads get closed immediately on the official forums. The man clearly did not have the information available to answer the question for our purposes. Caleb directly described something against the game rules and the terms of service when he asked Mod Crowe that question. We have already established months ago that this method is not reverse engineering or manipulation of game code and that makes Mod Crowes reply meaningless. If Caleb had asked something more realistic like "Mod Crow, is using archiving software to extract images from the game cache against the terms of service?" and Mod Crowe replied "Well technically no but I will ask around and see if we should encourage the behavior or not. Until then its best not to try it" then we would have our answer. TEbuddy 19:55, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

do you at least admit crow didnt have a clue what he was talking about when he said they can ban for it? its so obvious they cant. 3rd age farcaster 19:35, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

I don't really care how you interpret the information Te, I am taking it for face value; that caleb asked him about it using the buzz words and his response was that you can be banned. Since nothing from Jagex says otherwise, I am sticking with that. _{Evil Yanks} ^talk 01:59, April 2, 2010 (UTC)

but that PROVES mod crow was lieing- you CANNOT be banned for it. its simply impossible. yes, they could ban every wikian for this, though i gurentee that wont happen. but even if they did- what about all the players who view the cache without telling anybody about it? as i said mod crow was caught aether lieing, not thinking correctly, or stating something he believed to be true that actually wasnt, but in any case caught being WRONG. 3rd age farcaster 03:03, April 2, 2010 (UTC)

What does how they would enforce the rules have to do with my moral oppose?? Why can nobody accept that I oppose on moral grounds and that be the end of it?? _{Evil Yanks} ^talk 05:04, April 2, 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately in a discussion like this a few opposes are what is going to shut down the entire proposal. So sure, you can oppose based on nothing more than your right to oppose. Its ridiculous and childish and unfair, but if you just don't feel like compromising enough to actually try to please anyone but yourself and your "moral" views then go for it. TEbuddy 05:48, April 2, 2010 (UTC)

Comment- Right,people,I have some images of what RSMV is capable of.A gallery of them can be found here

If this does not change your opinion,then please do end this damn discussion X_X...

86.29.247.220 13:24, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - We don't need it.

Bonziiznob ^Talk

18:48, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

seriously? we need this but not cache images? -.-.. 3rd age farcaster 19:27, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

As pointed out above this wiki is about factual information pointless or not, and as such information is not contributed based on whether we need it or not. We are not being true to the purpose of the wiki if you we just ignore information because we feel like it. As an example, tell me how many times you think people have looked up the lore on Lord Drakken or The Elf God Seren, or The Elder Gods all of which we have pages of information for. TEbuddy 19:56, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

I have looked up each of those at least once. Oil4 ^Talk 20:33, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

My point was that regardless of pageviews if it has to do with Runescape we have a page about it. TEbuddy 20:37, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

(Edit conflict with 3rd age farcaster) Oppose - Although I think that Jagex has no legal right to stop us from using the images, I just don't think they're needed. I'm a regular user and I approve this message.  TLUL ^{Talk - Contribs} 19:30, March 31, 2010 (UTC) 

Support I don't know if my vote counts here since I'm not a very active editor, but speaking as a person who browses this site a lot, and works on other wikis, I'd say it's worth having RSMV images here, just not all of them. Only some significant ones. I'm not sure what the guidelines would be for deciding if a given image is important enough, but there are probably lots of random images in there that would be a bit pointless to post and just take up space. But, I'm sure many people like myself would like being able to see some of the more unusual or important images, as I can't use the model viewer myself. I don't think it's really breaking Jagex's rules, since it doesn't affect that game in any way. Feel free to strike this comment if as a new/non active user I'm not supposed to vote. insaneular Talk 20:28, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

Anyone can contribute in the YG Anyway, part of this proposal is that only the significant images (= stuff that is not in-game) would be uploaded. Oil4 ^Talk 20:35, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I just didn't want to jump into something I wasn't meant to. That sounds like something that would definitely benefit the wiki (imo) and not harm it. Changed to full support :) insaneular Talk 20:37, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - All the compromises have done nothing to address a signifcant concern of the opposition, that Jagex has stated that it is against their rules to use a 3rd party viewer to get at the cache images. If Jagex were to allow use of this viewer in the future, I'd be happy to agree to using these images on the wiki, but until then, it's against the rules. Tollerach hates SoF 19:35, April 1, 2010 (UTC)

why? because you say it is? jagex CLEARLY doesnt know what they are talking about on part of the issue, i think everybody agrees on that. so why assume they know what they are talking about on the rest? i think the rules should be an invalid reason to oppose, as we dont know if it is or not. i know it sounds like it is, but srsly- if jagex made a mistake 1 line before about the same topic what makes u think they arnt making 1 again? 3rd age farcaster 19:59, April 1, 2010 (UTC)

Its not even that. Its that it is not against the rules period. Calebs question was deceitful in the sense that all he wanted the mod to do was repeat the rules. We all agree that reverse engineering violates the TOS, we all agree (as per the last discussion and the table here) that the model viewer is not a form of reverse engineering. Mod Crowes answer does not apply here.TEbuddy 23:25, April 1, 2010 (UTC)

Divided - Both the for's and against's in the table are very strong. I'm divided. o_o However, the «Image and media policy: Files obtained from Jagex's game cache are not allowed» isn't valid. In this thread we are exactly trying to change that policy... 4ndrepd ^Talk_Contribs^{Jump to the God Wars II!} 18:43, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

against the rules

At 1 point i believed that this was against the rules. however after looking at crow's quote, i find it hard to believe that it is, and at the very least it is not confirmed to be against jagex's rules. Look at the quote, you guys, he says MESSING with the cache. When i hear messing, it normally means more then looking. as in, the science project example: if somebody tells you not to MESS with their science project whist they are gone, you can look all you want, u just cant start taking it apart. Also, he says players can be banned for viewing the cache- which PROVES that he aether doesnt know what he is talking about or is a liar, as IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to find out who is viewing these, unless the users confess to jagex.

if there is anything oli, TE, or i can do to make this more appealing, im sure we will agree to do it. i will give in as much as i can, without making the project useless. i also expect the same from you- give in a little bit. make a comprimise. IT IS UNHELPFUL to simply stand in the way of a good project because of wrong, and possibly non-existant, rules. 3rd age farcaster 20:43, April 1, 2010 (UTC)

Why are you putting this in a seperate section? Oil4 ^Talk 20:57, April 1, 2010 (UTC)

that section is getting long, for 1. for 2, i think this is somewhat of a seporate issue- we can still use that to discuss the cache itself and if its a good idea, however, i feel as though the rules debate isnt about if its good for the wiki, if we need it, or anything like that, its more about if you feel as though u can support something that- in your mind- is against the rules. 3rd age farcaster 21:23, April 1, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - I strongly urge anyone who has not already read Forum:Reveal leaked info? and Forum:RuneScape Model Viewer = Against the rules to do so, in that order. It would solve alot of the repeating of what has been said on two other threads here. I don't know if I'll be participating in this discussion. User:Lil diriz 77/Signatures 06:30, April 2, 2010 (UTC)

Closing I hope no one thinks I am abusing my tools here, but a careful read shows it to be very very clear there simply will not be consensus on this issue at this time. The same arguments are being repeated and re-repeated. So per RS:SNOW and to save heated arguments, I am closing this down. Not happily, but I am sure it is best for us for now.--Degenret01 09:10, April 2, 2010 (UTC)

A seconfd opinion form a neutral sysop says I may have closed it too early, so I al reopening it.

Remember to stay civil. Argue about the merits of the topic, do not attack other posters. Any one doing any flaming or insulting can expect warnings to be followed by a block. We will stay mature and discuss calmly, thank you.--Degenret01 15:30, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

thanks. 3rd age farcaster 17:53, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Okay, as intresting as the model images are, it's aganist the rules, the models there arn't the finished product and they're just the drafts, If you were writing a story, you wouldn't want someone else to read it in secret and reveal it to the world, would you? Btzkillerv has entered the building! 20:32, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

if i was wanting something to be kept secret, i would make it so not just anybody could look at it. also, viewing these may or may not beagainst the rules. we dont know. 3rd age farcaster 21:55, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

...I'm sorry, but that is the DUMBEST thing I've heard today. They've ALREADY said it's against the rules. And really, is it THAT hard to realize and recognize the dangers of getting banned? I'm sorry, but this has gone on long enough for me to totally relinquish any sympathy for anyone who's going to get banned...I,E, if you get banned, I could care less. You're ASKING for it, pretty much! https://i.imgur.com/7kyt1iT.gif --WINE OF GOOD HEALTH _{(Actually Stinko)} 23:35, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Now, now, let's not get heated here. And, like farcaster mentioned waaaaay up top, he no longer plays RuneScape, so there is no chance of him getting banned. --Liquid^Talk 23:39, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

I could care less if HE doesn't get banned. *I* don't want to get banned from the "guilt by association" thing. In fact, I even clarified what the problem you people are dodging around is:

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/7218/blaaarghnoobs.png

See that word "Any"? Yeah, that pretty much means "No Exceptions. Period." And if this rages on any more than it has to, I will take it upon myself to go talk to a Jmod somehow and describe the situation to him. THEN we can find out once and for all whether this is allowed. Until then, I firmly believe you MV-supporters are wasting your time and risking your accounts. https://i.imgur.com/7kyt1iT.gif --WINE OF GOOD HEALTH _{(Actually Stinko)} 23:48, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Be aware that Jagex is aware of this conversation. They are interested in the outcome. This is not speculation.--Degenret01 23:55, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

That's the rationale on which I opposed this (see waaaaaay at the top). However, some people do not believe that it is against the rules. They do have a legitimate argument, so we should hear them out. --Liquid^Talk 23:53, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

dude, keep the personal insults down. how do we know its against the rules? crow lied 1 time, in saying you can be banned for it. UNLESS YOU CONFESS, THEY CANNOT PROVE ITS YOU. period. so, imo, if he was caught being wrong 1 time, and on the same subject, what makes u think he wont be wrong again? also, if they really minded us looking at them, why would they leave them open? im sure they could have it so that we cannot view them. and if me/1 of my supporters gets banned, imagine how bad that will make jagex look- banning based on GUESSES that the name on my userpage is the name of the account that i actually play from. imagine how much in money that will cost the company to have workers digging threw wiki to find out who supported having these, going to their page, looking at the name on the page, seeing IPs and stuff adds up, etc. face it dude, we are not gunna get banned. oh, and liquid, thanks for being willing to discuss this. just wish we could make an agreement or something =/ 3rd age farcaster 00:17, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Stinkowing the screenshot cannot be fairly applied to this discussion and your fears about being banned are unjustified. If you ask a Jmod whether reverse engineering is against the rules or not as Caleb did in that screenshot, obviously they will reply that it is given that it is in their rules and TOS. How can you apply that to this situation if the people with the question about the model viewer are convinced this is not reverse engineering or modifying game code and feel they are being logical and legal and do not believe that there is any evidence that very clearly says that this method is against the rules? If you do talk to a Jmod, try to avoid regurgitating the words reverse engineering, hacking, or messing with the game code as this is not what the model viewer is and you will likely provoke the same reaction Caleb got.

TEbuddy 00:25, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Guys, If JaGEx can see if we're using macroing software on our computers, what stops them from finding out if we're implementing the model viewer? Besides, the whole point about it be aganist the rules is that it can be kept as a secret and a surprise when you do find out, if you secretly open your christmas present, the next day it's lost its magic, same way a film you haven't watched is ruined if someone told you its ending.Btzkillerv has entered the building! 08:21, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

if you dont like spoiled surprises, dont visit the model viewer thread. simple. as for banning, if they can, why havent they? pls find me 1 case of somebody being banned for it. 3rd age farcaster 16:16, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Their methods aren't magic BTZ. The reason they can detect macros and bots is because of the same technology that everyone in the world uses and does have limits. Jagex uses what I believe is pattern detection as part of their macro detection system which is what many other MMO's use. Most bots and macros work on the premise of clicking in a series in the same place with little to no variation over and over and over. The way I think Jagex system works is that after you run the bot, the system flags you as being a little too mechanically repetitive or a bot and automatically bans you some time later. A testament to this would be why bots and macros that randomize the time between clicks and keep the space of the clicks random (Clicking a different part of the high alchemy button each time for example) still do not get you banned. The game client does not act in the same way that Spyware would which would allow Jagex to view your browser history, currently running programs which is the only way I can think of they could prove anyone has used the model viewer. That would even be assuming you run the model viewer while the game is running. TEbuddy 16:34, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Enough.

I'm going to start with the hard legal evidence and move on to morality.

The entire supporting argument is based around the belief that we are not affiliated with Jagex, so we don't have to listen to their rules.

This is true, to a sense. However, supporters have avoided the point that we agree to their terms of service in order to access these files. In their terms of service, it says "You must not reverse-engineer, decompile or modify any Jagex Product client software in any way (except to the extent allowed by applicable law). You must not use a modified/customised version of the client software or attempt to sub-license it.". We have agreed in order to access, and so we legally have to do whatever they say in regards to files covered under their terms of service.

First point from that quote: reverse-engineer. Now, you said they only compress their files with a simple compression algorithm that you can unlock using a third party software. Ok. How about a story. You're heading to a friend's house. The door is locked. You can pick it using a tool. You got in. Just because the lock isn't strong doesn't mean it isn't locked. They don't hand out the files. They don't say we can have accesss to them. The only reason we can access them is by use of a third party software. Just because they're "stupid" and they don't lock it tight enough doesn't mean they don't want you looking at it. Just because we can get to the files easily doesn't mean it's legal.

Second point from that quote: decompile. To decompile is to decompress. The model viewer decompresses the compressed files. End of second point.

Third point from that quote: modify. A supporter made statements about the concept of modding runescape. This is considered modifying it.

Fourth point from that quote: sub-license. The wiki is cc-by-sa. This means that all files on the wiki may be shared and modified so long as there is attribution and the license is passed on to modifications. If we release a licensed image of Jagex's that we get using the model viewer, we are sublicensing it under cc-by-sa. Runescape currently has all rights reserved. If we upload an image, we are giving away the right to modify and share that image. We do not have the right to give away that right. Note to potential counterpoints: screenshots are a gray area lightly covered under the law of fair use. The model viewer is not fair use.

Another argument was that Jagex doesn't own the type of file compression used with Runescape. They do, however, have the right to license their data and tell us not to access it.

Another argument was that it isn't illegal to acces the files because they're already on our computer. It is illegal, again, because we agreed to their terms of service to get those files. They are licensed.

Another arument is that you can't create something with a tool you didn't make and then forbid someone to modify it. You are allowed to create something with a tool you did not create and then forbid people to modify it. It's called licensing. You can license a game. You can license software. You can license books. I didn't invent the pencil, but I can license a story. Licensing. You can't touch it unless I say so. You can't look at it unless I say so.

It's a low blow to try and slant the meaning of Crow's his words. By messing, you say that he means "taking apart." Well... yeah. Using a third party software to decompress the compressed files and access them is taking it apart. It's against the license.

I dislike the idea that "Crow lied 1 time." He did not lie. He clearly stated that any messing with the game code is not allowed and can see accounts banned from the game. I have trust in a game developer to know what a "cache in their computer" is. He knows that Caleb was asking about files stored on Caleb's computer. He knows that those files are not to be touched. They are licensed. A supporter made the point that "Jagex isn't where it is today because they have a bunch of dimwits working the servers." Agreed.

I dislike that supporters continue to ask if there is anything they can do to make this better. You know that opposers disagree with this for legal reasons. Using the fact that they disagree to make them look like they're stubborn or focussed on personal values is another low blow. There is no compromise on the legal issue.

It is not a valid argument to discuss how much money it costs them to find out who we are. It is not valid to argue whether they look bad when they ban based on a guess.

It bothers me when you say "it is impossible to find out who is viewing these." Yes, it is impossible. They have no way of telling if you use the model viewer to get those images. That does no make it allowed.

In close, has anybody asked a JMod if it is allowed to use a third party software to decompress files stored in the Jagex Cache on their computer, accessing them and posting them to a third-party, non-Jagex-affiliated fan site? No? I think you're avoiding something. Viewing the images from the model viewer is one thing, which I hold in the same light as torrenting music; Do it at your own risk, but I'll be damned if I let someone put the wiki at risk. Call me a stonewall. Leftiness 19:13, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Why did you create a new section for your reply? All you have done is create more space. As for your actual reply it seems to be based not so much on legal understanding, but by just aggressively restating what everyone else has. I suggest you take a look at Robert Hornings post in the other thread about the legality of the matter. [2]And now for my own rebuttal:

That would make sense if they have formally requested we remove any images and cease discussion, but even then it would at best be a suggestion as they would have no legal precedence over us. In its current form the Jagex TOS nor any official legal Jagex statements have condemned accessing the games cache illegal or against the game rules. As I have been saying from the beginning, applying the Jagex TOS to something I do not think is reverse engineering, decompiling, or modifying is not an answer at all. Reverse engineering a Jagex tool would be decompiling the codebase to see if there is a way you could create your own version of Jagex server side application in order to run a private server. Decompiling is a term used in programming and is not an over generalized way of saying decompress:

• "A decompiler is the name given to a computer program that performs the reverse operation to that of a compiler. That is, it translates a file containing information at a relatively low level of abstraction (usually designed to be computer readable rather than human readable) into a form having a higher level of abstraction (usually designed to be human readable)."

Modifying in itself clearly does not apply here as to modify means to change. No data is being changed here, it is being extracted from its archived form.

Your analogy is not applicable to this situation and your conclusion can work either way. Compressing a file is not locking it, thats why there are additional tools available to lock it. The only function file compression serves is to reduce a files size and make loading and transporting it easier and more efficient. Almost all compression tools allow for password protection or file encryption and Jagex already implements server side encryption so it is not a lack of understanding. They have a choice and they choose not to implement the protection that guarantees these files cannot be viewed. Just because the files can be protected and arent doesn't mean it's illegal.

Modifying as I mentioned at the beginning of the very first thread means many things and has become overgeneralized. It could mean a client side only modification using Java that does not require the Jagex game client or Jagex game files to work. However at this point modding Runescape is against the rules as that actually does go against Runescape TOS. The point of that post was to say that awareness of the game cache could cause the more talented users of the Runescape community to eventually create inteface and textures and skins for the game. This would cause Jagex to re-evaluate why they have the rule in the first place (to prevent illegal server emulation) and eventually change their TOS to encourage those mods because they are actually helpful to the community. This does not apply to this discussion.

I am not saying my understanding of the law is a shining example of what is fact, but you cannot simply say something is fact because that is what is suggested by the legal terminology are you referencing. For example its true the wiki uses creative commons [3], but that does not mean anything we use is being reliscensed by us under creative commons as in we are giving something away we do not own. We are still bound by Jagex copyright and all other applicable law like fair use[4] (which I feel applies here) and any pictures we have from the game client or otherwise are cited as something we do not own but simply use for information. A good way to look at that is like this: Are we using Jagex information because we are a genuine nonprofit Runescape resource and simply want to provide the most accurate comprehensive information we can? Or are we trying to steal Jagex works to gain an unfair advantage over other fansites or to sell the information for our own personal gain? The former is fair use and legal, the second is clearly not and also not what this discussion is trying to accomplish. Also, again Jagex has made an official statement on the issue of accessing the cache. If they had we would not be having this discussion now. And liscening is not the same as telling someone they are not allowed to do something with your work. It gives you the ability to tell someone what they can and cannot do with your work within a certain set of legal rights that you have, but just because it is liscensed does not immediately mean one thing or the other. And never does a liscense mean you can throw fair use out of the window. The entire point of fair use is that no matter what the copyright holder says, you can use their work as long as it is actually for fair use.

Without taking his words into context, you cannot know what he says is accurate or true. Simply assuming he is the oracle of truth just because of his Jmod title probably does more harm than good. A Jmod is human, they make mistakes, and cannot always give the best answer to a question on the spot. When a Jmod goes in game and is bombarded by questions like a Jmod almost always is in game, they are required to make answers short sweet and to the point usually by using canned responses. If Mod Crowe comes across a question he cannot answer but can vaguely attribute to some way to game code, he is obviously going to say that messing with it is against the rules per the TOS and ruleset. Restating over and over and over how this is clearly reverse engineering when it is actually not is not going to end this discussion easier. That quote about Jagex not being run by monkeys was mine and it was used to support the argument that if Jagex wanted the cache protected from access they could easily implement it. Hell if they brought me over there I could do it for them and thats saying a lot considering how our of practice I am. Giving an unjustified fear weight by using it as a reason to end this discussion does not mean anything. You admit they cannot ban users who use the model viewer, it was established long ago that it is very unlikely Jagex would take extradordinary steps to shut down the wiki, and we almost all agree that we are legally not stepping on anyones toes. Thats fine if you believe bittorrenting music is always illegal, but bit torrent is by default not illegal. It is simply a protocol used to transfer data. Your problem is thinking in absolutes and almost every issue we are discussing here is not a yes or a no one, there are always additional considerations which we must take into account to make the best decision. TEbuddy 20:53, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm out of membership, so I can't post on the forums. Can anybody ask a Jmod directly about it? 4ndrepd ^Talk_Contribs^{Jump to the God Wars II!} 19:31, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Jmods have discouraged talking about the model viewer on the forums so I dont think anyone should post again without risking a mute and a thread being closed. I would prefer until we can get some facetime ingame or we wait until I send my letter to Jagex. TEbuddy 20:54, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

how can you say "crow did not lie" and then go on to say "Yes, it is impossible. They have no way of telling if you use the model viewer to get those images"? CROW SAID IT WAS POSSIBLE TO FIND PPL LOOKING AT THESE, YOU YOURSELF SAID ITS IMPOSSIBLE: which of you is lieing? as for it being allowed, i have 0 respect for jagex and am fine with breaking their rules. thats not saying viewing the cache is breaking rules. oh, and for the record, i have never actually viewed it- tryed once, but it wasnt worth the effort needed. 3rd age farcaster 20:31, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

your entire argument is that because we play a jagex game, we should do whatever jagex wants us to do.

maby that would be true if we were jagex themselves, but we ARE NOT. rs wikia should follow its own set of rules, not jagex's. we shouldnt encourage scamming or harming other players, as that will harm players. this, however, wouldnt.

we should also look at the damage done vs the gains: as for damage, nothing is hurt exept by viewing the cache. sure jagex may not want us doing it, but why? only because they want to keep their secrets secret. should a news organization only report on its home countrys victorys, whilst ignoring scandals and failures? NO.

regarding gains, i can assure you users would enjoy looking at cache images, speculating on them, posting about them, etc alot more then other things that we have on the wiki. 3rd age farcaster 20:32, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

"Jagex rules are also enforced on this wiki, and any user who posts information or advice on how to break rules may be blocked from editing." - Rules of RuneScape. Halo^Talk 20:57, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Farcaster, how can you assure us that the average visitor would enjoy seeing cache images on a daily basis? Either you're psychic, or you're grasping at straws in a desperate attempt to ram this proposal past any possible resistance that would prevent this proposal from reaching consensus like last time. I'm more inclined to believe that the latter explanation is true, and not the former. In any case, where do you get off speaking for anyone besides yourself? If you absolutely must pass this proposal into consensus regardless of any and all possible consequences, then suggest a compromise that the people opposing this might agree with, but don't try to pull ridiculously false statements out of thin air to support your opinions. It only makes you look foolish in the eyes of those that you're trying to sway to your cause.

That being said, as long as Jagex doesn't go on a mass-banning rampage of Wiki users and/or retaliates against us by any other means, I'll happily support a compromise just so this heated debate will finally end and all of us would finally be able to get back to the main reason this Wiki was formed: To provide RuneScapians with an accurate encyclopedia on all things RuneScape.

1. REDIRECT User:N7 Elite/Signature 21:04, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

i did not say average visitor, nor did i say daily basis. but think- will less ppl really look at the cache article then ppl who look at this? oh, and pls show me a rediculsously false statement i have posted. lastly, name a compromise and ill agree to it just as i have in the past. 3rd age farcaster 21:28, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

It's not about whether people look at it or not. Look at what I posted just above. Halo^Talk 21:40, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

tell me one reason for that rule to exist. besides we aready dont follow it. lastly, pls post ur response to this on my talk page. 3rd age farcaster 22:03, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

It should exist because we want to be on good terms with Jagex. Your second point is stupid. It's basically saying that if someone murders someone else, it's okay for you to murder people too. And finally, as this is the place the discussion is taking place, my responses will remain here. Halo^Talk 22:06, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

we are aready hated by jagex. allowing or not allowing this wont change that. if you will not respond on my talk page, i will no longer respond to comments about rules. 3rd age farcaster 22:08, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

It's not my problem if you don't respond. Just because somebody hates you doesn't mean you should make it worse. Your arguments are really redirects, you are not addressing my points. Halo^Talk 22:10, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

I created a new section because the last one was having trouble loading in my browser... It said something along the lines of, "This page is over X kb, so some users might have trouble." I apologize if this was taken harshly.

Robert Horning's first edit was that it isn't against the law. There was no backing up.

His second edit was that it doesn't hut them economically. This isn't the point. Another point was that Jagex will let us know when we've crossed the line. I won't take that risk.

His third edit mentioned what "good fan sites" should do with Jagex's intellectual property. The key here is property. It's licensed. They have the right to determine what fan sites should do. Another point in this edit mentions that we would not be modifying it, only posting it. If this is true and we do not modify it, that's great. We're still violating the sublicensing clause when uploading. It would give the right for someone else to modify it, and we don't ahve the right to give that right. He had a good point in this edit about the illegal use of the runes in the wiki's logo. I agree. He also makes the point that any images uploaded before Jagex made statements about the images are not held to those statements. They can't make a law and then sue us for doing something earlier that is now against that law, he said. However, uploading images now would be against their previous statement which is in effect.

In his fourth edit, he showed their statement saying they have the right to ban us. He then went on to state the intellectual property rights that Jagex maintains. They say in their terms of service, which we agreed to, that they own Runescape in its entirety.

In his fifth edit, he said that it's not illegal, that we can only be in trouble if we post it on the forums. He then said that there is no terms of service problem here. I disagree on the points of sublicensing and decompiling. He then said that it's against copyright laws, but he didn't explain how it's against copyright laws, which he later shows don't apply due to our position as a non-profit organization providing commentary on the game. Therefore, copyright is no longer argued.

Later, he stated that the terms of service simply don't apply. I disagree, again, on the points of sublicensing and decompiling. As he said, Jagex reserves all rights, and, if we upload it to the wiki, we're giving away rights to modify and share the images because everything on the wiki is cc-by-sa. Furthermore, I restate that to decompile is to decompress. He argues that using the model viewer will not get you banned. I disagree on the point of decompiling. He further argues that uploading said images to the wiki will not be banned. I disagree on the points of sublicensing and decompiling. The terms of service do not only apply to the forum. They apply to Runescape in its entirety. He said that raising the issue of a ban is a lie. I disagree on the statement that "In order to prevent or stop any harm or damage to us, to any Jagex Product ... we may Stop ... any or all accounts of a Jagex Product which we think are connected with the offender..." It is considered damage to a Jagex Product when someone decompiles the cache. He attempted to justify his argument, stating that the files in the cache are "released content ... put deliberately there by Jagex." This is true, however this is no defense against the point of decompiling. He used the child friendly term "Eater Egg." I disagree.

Later, he went on to call "the invocation of real-world laws" "scare tactics." Calling it scare tactics is a low blow. Real-world laws need to be "invoked." He went on to call attacking his false logic on the matter of inexperience in legalities "a low blow," citing that he's studied copyright law for 30 years because these sorts of issues are his "bread and butter." On a personal matter, I'd like to know, since he isn't a lawyer, what sort of employment he has. I bet it's in the same gray area we're exploring right now, and he's hoping, for the sake of his family, that no clarity comes into the picture. Since there is no clarity in copyright law, he simply calls the whole thing fallacious, time and time and time again. Again, however, copyright is no longer an issue.

Having read Horning's entire argument, I admit he made points that eliminated many of my worries. However, he also made statements such along the lines of "the terms of service don't apply anywhere but the forums," that don't make sense.

I assert that using the model viewer for your own personal use is against the terms of service on the point of decompiling; uploading those images to the wiki is against the terms of service on the points of decompiling and sublicensing.

Now, it is assumed that Jagex has no legal precedence over us. I disagree on the points of decompiling and sublicensing. In response to the statement that "Jagex has not condemned accessing the cache," I say that in their terms of service they state that "You must not reverse-engineer, decompile, or modify any Jagex Product client software in any way (Except to the extent allowed by applicable law.)" We agreed to the terms of service by playing the game. They gave us the files under protection of the terms of service. The terms of service thereby apply to the jagex cache files accesed by the model viewer. The jagex cache is contained within "any Jagex Product."

Yes, a decompiler is the opposite of a compiler. As was said on another page, the files accessed by the model viewer aren't compressed with ZIP, though it's just as easy to get to, according to them. The images are compiled from human-readable, human-created images that Jagex made with whatever graphics software. They compiled it into this compressed archive which the game reads. The compressed archive is computer-readable. Therefore, the model viewer changes the compressed archive from computer-readable to human-readable. It decompiles it.

The modify point is a subpoint of the sublicensing point. If we upload images to the wiki, we license wiki viewers to share and modify the image so long as they attribute and pass the license along. We would be giving someone the right to modify the image. We don't have the right to give that right.

Whether or not you consider compressing a file in a special archive that you need a special tool to access to be locking it, it is still decompiling. Just because they don't lock it tightly doesn't mean you aren't changing it from computer-readable to human-readable form. You're decompiling it with the model viewer, and that's against the terms of use. It's illegal.

I'll accept your statement that modding runescape doesn't apply to this discussion, however sublicensing the images by putting them on the wiki, as I've said, isn't something we're allowed to do.

I've dropped the issue of fair use, as I've said above. However, the wiki, and everything in it, is licensed cc-by-sa. That would include the model viewer images, if they're uploaded. Uploading would be illegal under the point of sublicensing.

Licensing something, yes, tells them what they can and can't do. When something is licensed, however, it does immediately mean one thing or another. Again, I've dropped the issue of fair use, but the point remains that their license tells us that we can't decompile or sublicense, and it took effect already.

I disapprove of your use of the word fear. Also, I admit that it is very unlikely Jagex will take any steps to do anything against us. Also, the model viewer is not illegal by itself just as bit torrent by itself is not illegal. When you violate a license, terms of use, copyright, etc, the act becomes illegal. Go ahead and use bit torrent to get a linux distribution; use the model viewer for things other than accessing the jagex cache or for doing other legal things. Even if there is absolutely no way for us to get caught and banned, I disagree with this action on the points of decompiling and sublicensing.

Crow did not lie. Any messing with the game code can see accounts banned. Whether or not it is possible for Jagex to find out is not a matter in whether or not they will ban somebody they find doing it.

This Wiki is a non-profit organization which is viewed legally as an entity. It's a person, for all legal intents and purposes. If I use the model viewer to access the jagex cache, I am violating the terms on the count of decompiling. Now, the Wiki can ignore some of Jagex's rules. For example, we can swear here. It's perfectly fine. Jagex can do nothing about it. However, the model viewer involves Jagex's intellectual property, and so Jagex can do something about it because using the model viewer to get images uploaded to the wiki violates the terms of service on the points of decompiling and sublicensing.

The damages vs. the gains are not a valid argument. It is illegal on the points of decompiling and sublicensing to post model viewer images on the wiki. Jagex can keep their secrets secret if they want to, and a news company can report whatever news it wants.

There is no compromise. Don't suggest one. This is illegal. We can provide accuracy without illegality.

I was logged out. Leftiness 22:49, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Roberts comment about economic harm comes from the actual legal purpose of a copyright. It is to provide an incentive for the owner of the work to go ahead with spending of their own money and time with the guarantee that someone cannot simply steal their work and leave them broke with no monetary benefits. There is zero risk here. If we go over the line Jagex will likely contact wikia and they will relay the message seeing as they are ultimately our host. What makes you think that Jagex would immediately strike against us with ferocity? It makes no legal sense to assume they will demand the wiki be shut down. Several other websites post the cache images freely, even videos on youtube exist [5] of the cache and everyone knows youtube obliges developer requests and takes down offending content first and asks questions later. In spite of that Jagex has taken zero action on all fronts.

No, they have a certain set of legal rights that are limited to their copyright. They cannot demand we do whatever they want, only what we are legally inclined to do. Where are you pulling this sublicensing clause stuff from? You seem to be confusing two separate matters. Jagex copyright on any images from the game follow through to the wikia and everywhere legally allowed. Just because we take the images from the game client and post them does not also mean they are now liscensed under creative commons. It means that whatever works we post are Jagex's and that you may modify it under creative commons within the extent of applicable law, fair use, and Jagex copyright. It does not mean that we are removing Jagex copyright or saying anyone can now use them under the creative commons liscense. Read this page [6] for a better explanation of how copyright and creative commons function together.

Again you are confusing absolutetes. We are not required to follow their TOS past legal obligations and that statement was made to prevent copyright infringement. It does not immediately remove our right to fair use, or their right to liscense it any way they please.

He is absolutely correct, the TOS do not apply to every situation universally. They are a very strict set of legal terms that deal with specific legal matters. You cannot simply criss cross terms just because they are used in official statements. For example just because they say Runescape in its entirety does not mean anything they ever say applies to Runescape in its entirety. Read below for my response on decompliling.

And you were saying I was twisting words to fit my argument? Applying the words compiling and decompiling in the way you intend is nothing more than you trying to force something to be true that is not. You completely skewed the entire definition. The point of saying human readable vs machine readable is that the compiler takes the raw coding used to write an application and compiles it into a form the computer can read at a very basic level. You cannot simply create your own definition of machine readable and apply it to this discussion. And no, file archives and 3d models do not count as non human readable. We use free open source applications and technical methods which Jagex did not create to access the cache. If Jagex used a Jagex only file and encryption no one would be able to use the files. They do not so we can assume that they do not have a problem.

Crow did not lie. Any messing with the game code can see accounts banned. Whether or not it is possible for Jagex to find out is not a matter in whether or not they will ban somebody they find doing it. Oh, what about topics on the forums in which users have asked and admitted to using the model viewer? Heck a Jagex mod even went out of their way to tell the user nothing would happen to them for doing it and simply asked that they do not discuss it on the forum. Jagex is clearly aware of certain users who have used the model viewer via Youtube, this wiki, or other fansites yet have taken no action. They wont do that because I honestly think they could care less what we do with the cache. Thats ridiculous. You just said above that we are to abide by Jagex Rules and TOS because they own Runescape in its entirety. Now why can we ignore a rule like swearing if you are claiming we are to follow a supposed rule about the model viewer? All you are doing is molding everything to fit into your argument without regard to its true legal meaning or purpose. We can ignore the rule about swearing because legally Jagex cannot tell us what we can and cannot say. They legally can tell other people what we can and cannot do with their works within the confines of their copyright. This qualifies as fair use, if this is fair use and you agree to that then how can we not use it. To say that they trump fair use with their copyright shows your dire ignorance of copyright law as fair use exists to prevent copyright owners from infringing on others basic right to information. Im sorry but I will not agree to you aggressively saying something like "This is illegal because I say it is" like you are ending the argument. If thats how you feel fine, but I am going to poke as many holes in a flawed argument like that as I can. TEbuddy 01:06, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - The biggest saving grace, as I see it, would be if the Model Viewer were reverse engineering Jagex's game cache to accomplish interoperability. However, interoperability, as defined by the University of North Texas after considering and combining the definitions of major dictionaries and references, is "the ability of different types of computers, networks, operating systems, and applications to work together effectively, without prior communication, in order to exchange information in a useful and meaningful manner." The files stored on the computer are not an application. They are simply files. This type of reverse engineering does not promote any exchange of information between the RSMV application and any other application. As such interoperability does not apply. http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu33/Psycho_Robot/Sigs%20and%20Avatars/kitty.pngPsycho Robot talk 00:11, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

If the model viewer is not reverse engineering then why would it need to fulfill the interoperability clause? TEbuddy 01:11, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

left, according to you, what breaks real world laws? A) viewing the images B) putting the images on wiki, C) discussing what the images are of. 3rd age farcaster 00:27, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Viewing the images is legal illegal on the point of decompiling. Putting the images on the wiki is illegal on the points of decompiling and sublicensing. Discussing what the images are of is illegal on the point of decompiling because you can't get those images without decompiling. I apologize for the typo. Leftiness 00:30, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

i dont get that at all. how can viewing but not discussing be legal? 3rd age farcaster 00:42, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Viewing but not discussing is illegal because Jagex stated in their terms of use that "You must not reverse-engineer, decompile or modify any Jagex Product client software in any way." Viewing the images with the model viewer is decompiling because the model viewer changes the compressed archive from computer-readable to human-readable, which is the definition of decompiling. We agreed to the terms of service by playing. The files are stored on the computer under protection of the terms of use. Therefore, decompiling the compressed archive is violating the terms of service. It's illegal. Leftiness 00:47, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

above u said viewing was legal. and, we are talking about jagex laws correct? not irl ones? 3rd age farcaster 00:49, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Violating the terms of service is breaking a real-world law. Jagex licensed their product, Runescape, and they reserved all rights. We only have the right to do what Jagex says we can. That includes Runescape in its entirety, not just items in game, or the java applet, but the jagex cache, too. Everything is covered under their terms of service: "... any Jagex Product client software in any way." Leftiness 00:53, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely incorrect, Jagex is not the ultimate authority. They have a set of rights granted to them by their copyright and nothing more. Leftiness I mean this as nicely as possible, but you have no idea what you are talking about. TEbuddy 01:06, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

and if you log into the game without agreeing tos? the cache is put on our comp evey time we log in, correct? 3rd age farcaster 01:00, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

You agree to the terms of service by creating an account. You agree before you log in. "Your accepting them in full is a condition of your use of a Jagex product (whether or not you subscribe). If you don't agree with any part, please don't accept them or use the Jagex product." Leftiness 01:04, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

i just tried it with the demo- you dont agree to anything for that. 3rd age farcaster 01:07, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

"If you don't agree with any part, please don't accept them or use the Jagex product." You don't have to click "I agree." You agree by using the product, Runescape. TEBuddy: Jagex is the ultimate authority when it comes to Runescape. It is theirs. They reserve all rights. Leftiness 01:10, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

TEBuddy: I would prefer if you would edit this page from top to bottom, not out of order. As I said, I dropped the argument of copyright and fair use. That isn't an issue. The issue is the terms of use clause about decompiling and sublicensing. Also, another website breaking the law is not a reason for us to break the law. Furthermore, Youtube is a very large site with many files. Of course they haven't found those videos and removed them, but, again, that doesn't make it legal.

To be clear, I said that I don't care if there is no chance for us to get banned. I also don't care if there is no chance of the wiki being shut down I suspect there is no chance. I am arguing this from a legal standpoint.

I did not say they can demand we do whatever they want us to. As you said, we have to do what we are legally inclined to. We are legally inclined to follow Jagex's terms of service or to not use their product. So says their terms of service, which we agreed to by using their service.

Sublicensing: "You must not reverse-engineer, decompile or modify any Jagex Product client software in any way (except to the extent allowed by applicable law). You must not use a modified/customised version of the client software or attempt to sub-license it." If we post an image to the wiki, we are sublicensing under cc-by-sa because everything on the wiki is cc-by-sa. CC-BY-SA means that it can be modified and shared so long as it is attributed and the license is passed along. We don't have the right to give people the right to modify the images. We don't have the right to view the images, because Jagex stated in the terms of use that we aren't allowed to decompile anything. All rights are held by Jagex.

From a copyright standpoint, as I've said, there is no problem. We are a non-profit organization providing information. The issue is, again, in decompiling and sublicensing.

In there terms of service, which you agree to in order to get the jagex cache on your computer, it says that we are not allowed to decompile. The terms of use apply all Jagex products, including Runescape. The raw coding is computer-readable. Compilers put images, scripts, raw coding, and everything else together in near little subdirectories which are compressed to save space. Runescape does not just pull an image out of a folder and put it in front of you. There's coding that tells the computer to put the image there. Coding is telling the computer what that coding means. Compiling is taking everything something needs to run and putting it in a box. Decompiling is opening that box. Whether or not your tool is free and open-source does not matter. Whether Jagex created it doesn't matter. Again, just because Jagex didn't use a strong (or unique) lock, doesn't mean you aren't picking it.

The reason they use easy to access files is because they made the game in Java so everyone could play it over the internet for free. The Model Viewer uses Sun Microsystem's tools to access those. (Sun made Java.) Yes, those tools are free. No, it is not legal to use those tool to open locks that they tell you not to.

We can swear here because swearing has nothing to do with Jagex's terms of service, or Jagex in general. We cannot post model viewer images here because those files are protected under the terms of service. Again, copyright and fair use are not an issue. The terms of service is.

Also, I did not say "This is illegal because I say it is." I disapprove of your rebuttal. Leftiness 01:43, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

This is a step away from becoming a flame war. Please, stay calm. The demo 3rd age mentioned is a very good point indeed. You don't agree on anything, and the cache gets on your computer. No problem on that. However, the discussion here is not only about the legality, but the ethics. Is it correct to spoil the surprise of, say, unreleased quests? What if we dug into the model viewer and we saw, maybe, Lucien as a quest boss... Have you thought about the implications of that? I don't think some people, or Jagex for that matter, would like that at all... 4ndrepd ^Talk_Contribs^{Jump to the God Wars II!} 14:34, April 9, 2010 (UTC)