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Manhattan2 TalkContribs • Last 20 Forum - Main - User talk editsEdit count

Hey, I'm Jeremy or Manhattan2. I'm a relatively new editor in the big scheme of things, but in my short time of being here I've contributed big and in many different areas of this wiki. I've learned new skills, gone out of my comfort zone a lot of times and it was all for positive outcomes. I like to think that the contributions I have made toward this wiki have been very good, and if not good at first have definitely improved. I believe adminship will help me with my own future contributions as well as others. I don't like writing about myself much so if you'd like to know something please do ask down below in the Discussion section

I, Manhattan2, accept this nomination for adminship. I have read the policies concerning administrators. I realise that this nomination may fail. If I do get community consensus, I promise not to abuse my tools because I realise that this is a serious offence. If the community finds that I have done so, my tools will be revoked, and in extreme cases I could be given a community ban. Signed, User:Manhattan2/signature 14:08, December 20, 2017 (UTC).

Questions for the nomineeEdit

1. What administrative work do you intend to take part in?
Well I've never really stuck to one part of the wiki, but I'm trying to move into the more behind the scenes stuff. I'm constantly asking for things to be deleted, files to be moved. I use AWB which would be nice to have extra tools on that alsooo.

2. What have been your most helpful contributions to the RuneScape Wiki, and why?
Definitely the Ironman Mode/Strategies. It was my second page and I learned so much about the wiki and have got a ton of fellow ironmen to help me in creating the page. I also created 4taa and Vorago/Strategies/Duo.

3. Have you been in any conflicts over editing in the past or have other users caused you stress? How have you dealt with it and how will you deal with it in the future?
Yes and no. 2 of the 3 pages I have created have been {{Rfd}}, and although neither passed to be deleted, it still put a lot of stress on me, especially as a newer editor, that my contributions are either controversial or unwelcome. I dealt with it by continuing to contribute and being more open with other people's opinions. Another time was on the OSRS page for crystal key parts, with constant reverting and attempting to explain on discord and talk pages. From that experience I learned that being patient and explaining what is wrong instead of just saying they are wrong goes much further.

4. Should this request be successful, will you request IRC operator?

Additional questions (asked by the community if necessary)Edit

  • Realistically, would it not make more sense to request custodian rights, rather than admin? xHR7zpA.png6encXAo.png 14:58, December 20, 2017 (UTC)
    • Maybe so. I really just want the tools instead of the status. User:Manhattan2/signature 15:14, December 20, 2017 (UTC)
      • I think barring the deleting of things, everything you mentioned in the 'administrative work' answer can be done with the custodian right, which doesn't require a nomination process and can just be requested through RS:RFP. I don't think your argument about constantly asking for things to be deleted really stands up - as far as I can see you've asked for something to be deleted only three times since the start of November (on Discord), and by the looks of your contributions to user talk pages, you've never left a talk page message about it. xHR7zpA.png6encXAo.png 15:21, December 20, 2017 (UTC)
  • Some of your interactions with other users (1 & 2) have been rude and obnoxious. Do you intend to continue communicating with people in this way? If not, what's changed? xHR7zpA.png6encXAo.png 14:58, December 20, 2017 (UTC)
    • Yea, that was a pretty big fuck up. I guess I have no excuse for acting like that, and I should apologize to him. I obviously never intend on communicating like that to people, and I shouldn't have put my priorities over his and especially shouldn't have treated him like that. It was very recent to say "what's changed?" but I can say in the future I will be much more careful and sensitive when talking to other people, especially if I become an admin. User:Manhattan2/signature 15:14, December 20, 2017 (UTC)


Oppose - Yer interactions with other users have been less than ideal. Just recently (9 December 2017), on Discord ye yelled at Kinoshi Inoto for letting a blood Zarod godsword wielder get away. Kinoshi never offered to help ye get the DII, yet ye said to them "ok dude if you cant fucking do me that simple favor/ fuck it/ dont ask". Furthermore, ye lack the basic rollback and custodian tools that we currently offer Template:Signatures/Ciphrius Kane 14:25, December 20, 2017 (UTC)

Oppose - the majority of administrative work you mention can be solved by becoming a custodian. I'd try that first before making the leap to administrator. Lily of the valley ThePsionic White Rabbit 14:30, December 20, 2017 (UTC)

Oppose - Per Ciph, Psi, and Jayden. As an admin you can't call people idiots, even if they call you that (first/too). Salix of Prifddinas (Talk) 15:23, December 20, 2017 (UTC)

Oppose - I honestly think you have the right intentions in the ways of editing and helping the wiki, however behaviour is important as admins are a part of the image for the wiki and as already pointed out by Ciph ,Jayden and Salix, it's not up to par. --User:KelseW/Signature 15:31, December 20, 2017 (UTC)

Oppose - You're a good editor and I hope you continue being great. I feel like with time some of the harshness of your personality can be ironed out and then we can look towards adminship. In the mean time, it might be worthwhile to look into getting custodian rights as Jayden and Psi have mentioned to help do some of the tasks you're wanting to do. User:TyA/sig 16:03, December 20, 2017 (UTC)

Not yet - I agree with everyone else. While definitely an excellent and enthusiastic editor, I have reservations from a personal standpoint. I'm really hopeful that the days of constant wiki drama are behind us. Furthermore, while I don't think having custodian/rollback is a prerequisite for administrator rights, I will say that I'm extremely reluctant to support an RfA based primarily on use of maintenance sysop tools (id estmove/delete rather than CV tools like block/protect) when custodian has not been asked for yet. I do really like Manhattan (the user, and the location), and hope to be able to change my position in the future. --LiquidTalk 16:44, December 20, 2017 (UTC)

Oppose - it’s true that you are a good editor and that you have new ideas and are passionate about getting projects like PVM strategies done, but I don't think that you would make a good administrator. You've only been here a couple of months and you don't know the wiki or its policies that well yet. It's clear you don't particularly know what we expect from admins and what tools are associated with being one. As others have already pointed out, you say you want to move files but this isn't something you need to be an admin to do; it’s something that comes with being a custodian. I agree with Jayden that saying you are "constantly asking for things to be deleted, files to be moved" is a massive overstatement. It's not clear that you even know how to correctly request that things be deleted: 3 days ago you uploaded files including File:Augmented Guthan's equipment equipped.png, and left them unused rather than replacing the pre-existing inferior images used on pages and tagging the replaced images for speedy deletion. I would expect to see both a greater level of need for the tools and understanding of the wiki's processes for using them in someone requesting adminship.

Another major concern is your attitude which has already resulted in several dramas in the short time you've been here, for example:

  1. You expressing your reservations so poorly about how the ET raffle was run that the ET members felt it necessary exclude you from the raffle because of how you had behaved about it.
  2. Being rude to someone over getting a DII in Jayden's screenshots above (getting one DII was really not that important in the grand scheme of things). I'd also point out that your response to being told to calm down [1].
  3. Wanting to use a private server to get images, which several people pointed out to you is not okay because it is against RuneScape, and therefore our, rules. Fair enough, but you then decided it would be okay to try and speak to Jagex about doing this for the wiki, which again took several people trying to reason with you (including me threatening to block you) before you abandoned the idea.

All in all you are too aggressive in how you approach other editors. You don't listen to other editor's giving you advice and you act in ways which aren't in line with the consensus driven nature of the wiki. You handle people disagreeing with you poorly; at times breaking RS:UTP, which is a crucial policy for all editors to follow, or acting generally immaturely by doing things like ragequitting the clan after the third incident mentioned above. This isn't conduct that is acceptable from any editor, let alone admins who we expect to set the best possible example of how to behave. Contrary to what you have said about being more open to other's opinions and being more careful and sensitive with other users these issues are something I am not seeing any improvement in (if anything your attitude has got worse the longer you have been here). Your conduct thus far has shown that you lack the maturity and level-headedness that admins need to use their tools appropriately. Magic logs detailIsobelJRaw rocktail detail 20:21, December 20, 2017 (UTC)

The files I uploaded were left unused because it was a mistake, not because I don't know how to request for things to be deleted. I uploaded them for Ciphrius and some of them were image retakes of existing files, so it just slipped past me that they were completely new files. Anyways, agreed with the rest. User:Manhattan2/signature 06:07, December 21, 2017 (UTC)

Oppose - Two days ago you asked in the clan chat for help with a small favour. I replied to you, yet for ten minutes I was waiting for a reply back (I was awaiting a reply because I was about to go to sleep, and wanted to help first before I went). I pinged you in discord, messaged you on runescape, and it was 100% clear you were ignoring me.

One of the biggest roles of an administrator is trust and communication amongst the community and other admins. I haven’t seen you demonstrate this at all, especially with your blatant violations of wiki rules that other people have already talked about. Haidro (talk) 20:57, December 20, 2017 (UTC)

I had you ignore listed for multiple reasons. I pinged you because the discord was trying to set up a game, and you said to never ping you like that again, which was uncalled for. You were very unhelpful when I asked for your help with an event and also said my community idea was stupid, which I only suggested because I was told to suggest it to you. You also told someone that their friend was a "major ass" when no one asked you how you felt about them. I did not see your offer to help in game, as for the ignore list, but I did see your @'s on discord about half an hour after you sent them. User:Manhattan2/signature 06:07, December 21, 2017 (UTC)

Oppose - You are just flat out rude to people. You also intentionally do not respond to messages I send you, just because I am part of the events team. You are also looking very power hungry for someone who just joined not even 3 months ago, and you are more then happy to berate people to get what you want. People like you have come to the wiki before, and I am sure more will come after you, but right now, you should not even be trusted with a spoon. Thefreeman500 (talk) 03:44, December 21, 2017 (UTC)

I'm going to assume this is fire rage. In that case, you were blatantly ignoring all my suggestions and told me "if you don't like the rules, you can go host your own raffle" which I took offense to that because I DID host my own raffle, albeit a very non-public one,less rewarding one. In an attempt to not start any more issues with your obviously stubborn personality, I ignore listed you. Also I stated earlier/later? that I did not want admin for the status, but for the tools. I realize that there are more responsibilities than just that, though. User:Manhattan2/signature 06:07, December 21, 2017 (UTC)

Actually im Corn. Thefreeman500 (talk) 07:30, December 21, 2017 (UTC)
Then I don't know why I have been "ignoring" you. I personally have never talked to you, so I have no reason to ignore you anyways. Could you tell me what you were trying to contact me for? I never received any messages. Also dont you think this is a bit ironic?User:Manhattan2/signature 07:51, December 21, 2017 (UTC)

Oppose - This is a case of mostly good intentions and poor execution. The reason I say "mostly" is because from what I can tell, you're in the wiki community doing good work but I personally feel it started for questionable reasons. I heard of you before I met you, from some acquaintances in the pvm community and also on reddit. Upon meeting you at one of the ET-hosted rago events, I knew you had a name as a pvmer and have had hard mode rago records. Flash forward several months and the first thing I grew to notice was your ironman Manhattan (didn't know it was you at the time) guesting in the clan and coming off as elitist. Not in a confrontational "I'm better than you" manner, but in response to someone saying they don't have 400m to buy gold premier via bonds, you said (paraphrased) things like just get a praesul codex drop, easy 700m, worth almost two premiers, then quickchatting that you had a praesul codex drop on ironman. Then as you continued to talk, it looked like you were casually trying to one-up people even though the RSW community tends to not do high tier pvm like you do. Over time that type of behavior became less frequent, but the elitist mentality seeps out into your interactions with people still now.

This really was more of a joke than to have an upperhand. I attempted to host an angel of death event and offered to teach the boss to as many people that wanted to come. If all I do is this high level pvm then obviously the good things for most people are just average for me. For example, getting a praesul codex drop isnt even all that exciting to me, because I do bosses a lot of drops come every so often. Like you said, you know I do this stuff a lot, so would everything I say or do be considered bragging? How come you don't bring up the fact that I hosted my own raffle, or attempted to host an aod learning event, but instead you bring up a bad joke for something you really can't even blame me for. I love being competitive, so I'm sorry if it came off as being elitist. In my opinion, an elitist is one who makes comments over little things, but then doesn't offer any constructive criticism, just flames that someone is not as good as them (which ironically is the other way around usually). User:Manhattan2/signature 05:46, December 21, 2017 (UTC)

As for the raffle that others have mentioned, see here for the following references. Flash forward to 23 November when clan member Fire rage decided to host a raffle of (initially) 20 bonds out of his own pocket for the members of the RSW clan. He wanted people to be eligible if they had been in the clan for two months, which was then made to be 28 September. A normal response to a raffle would be excitement and maybe some disappointment for not being eligible. But you got mad and stayed mad about the rule. You complained in the clan chat to me and to Fire rage minutes after it was opened, pmed me on discord about it, then again in the cc the next day to others. When I made clan event broadcasts to advertise the raffle, you remarked on the rule. It got to the point where I didn't want to bring it up when you were around because you were going to complain again. After feeling like the rules wouldn't change, you went to others who weren't even involved in the raffle. They either did not want to talk about it or tried to calm you down, but that prompted you to complain to yet more others. You felt upset that people weren't listening to you. You had valid points, and the rule was thereafter changed. The declining of your entry however was not to single you out for expressing discontent but rather the way you made a point to complain many times the raffle was even brought up. It should have been obvious that most of the people you asked didn't want to talk about it for a reason. Your poor behavior was the reason but you didn't see that ever. It seems that if you do not have your way, you complain until people stop responding to it. Then you go to someone you think will be able to change things to your liking. This was the case both with the raffle and for the private server issue mentioned by others.

That's a pretty major flaw that I have in my personality is that I'm very persistent with things that it gets out of hand sometimes. I am sorry for how I acted and I know I could have done things better, but it goes both ways. I expect you guys to be open-minded with future events and at least consider some of the arguements I made instead of pushing opposing ideas away with a generic response of "It's his money he can do what he wants with it" User:Manhattan2/signature 05:46, December 21, 2017 (UTC)

Which leads me to what I feel is the root of all of this. There have been editors who, like you, were highly competent pvmers and known in the pvm community. And it is well known the kind of toxic and elitist behavior that is commonplace and thrives in those spheres. However, it is not well received here, though people tend to put up with it due to the more passive, rather than aggressive, personalities in the community. One particular example of an elitist mentality coming through your words was in the fourth image of the album: "It made me pretty angry when I saw that an IP got approved for the raffle / but someone like me has no chance no matter what I do." That's when I definitively started feeling like you like to show off the fact that you have the wikian title and that you do things for the wiki, whether in the clan or on reddit or discord. The same way you made a point to show off the fact that you pvm. You are not better than anyone else for it, and an IP is no less worthy than you just because they don't have a wiki account. This elitism over others, coupled with apparent brown-nosing of some users with higher wiki perms/cc ranks, makes me question your character in and out of the wiki community.

I don't think you understood my point when I said "It made me pretty angry when I saw that an IP got approved for the raffle / but someone like me has no chance no matter what I do." You made it an Event's Team event, and not only that, you put the entry on the Wiki. There is some correlation with the event and the wiki at that point, and that contributions to the wiki should have a small impact on the raffle, big or small. I still don't know why you would call me elitist over that comment though. My point was no that I made contributions to the wiki, but rather the only requirement was something unattainable, instead of something which could be done later. User:Manhattan2/signature 05:46, December 21, 2017 (UTC)

People like your work, like your determination. Though if you have never gotten feedback on the negative aspects of your behavior, I hope you take this to heart but not personally. As harsh as this sounds, I hope that there can be better and healthier communication to and from the community. Don't let this discourage you, but rather let it be another facet to improve as you continue contributing to the wiki.  Panjy16  04:05, December 21, 2017 (UTC)

I appreciate the response. As I said to others, I will take all this criticism and I am glad that its coming. Cheers User:Manhattan2/signature 05:46, December 21, 2017 (UTC)

Oppose - So I took some time to read through the comments in this thread and honestly, I agree with them all. Ignoring the fact that you can do what you want to do with custodian rights, as pointed out in the question I asked, I can see a lot of reasons why you shouldn't become an admin, or at least not for quite a while.

I think the behaviour that you show within our community is less than ideal, and certainly not the kind of behaviour I'd deem sufficient to be able to determine consensus, block people, and the other things that come along with being an admin. It was only a few weeks ago that you were complaining about people not getting DIIs for you, as other people have mentioned. I'm concerned as to the real nature of why you want to have admin rights, as for a little while you have displayed signs of wanting power and wanting things to be your way. As examples, there was the raffle which has been covered already, and even situations like the #reddit channel in Discord where you were extremely persistent about wanting the ability to talk there, despite there being no real need as it is just a webhook channel.

The truth is that the attitude that you have is one that we've seen many times before, but because the person is usually a great, motivated editor, we ignore it. Unfortunately, it just isn't possible for us to allow people to cause disruption and isolate other people in the community. I know I'd personally rather have an editor that doesn't entirely know what they're doing, but has a friendly attitude, than one that knows everything but is toxic. When we ignored it before with other people, it caused a whole host of problems until we did something about it. I don't want to see you go down the same path, as you're clearly committed, but the attitude needs to change.

Please let this be a wake up call that the way you have been acting is not acceptable, and if you continue behaving like you have recently, you'll find that that people will be very unlikely to support something like an RfA from you. I think you also need to take some time to get over the "my page got RfD'd, as always" thought process. I used to take criticism quite harshly and there has been the odd occasion where I haven't dealt with it properly, so I know how that feels. It can be demotivating for something you've done to be removed or deleted. The point, however, is that our community is built on consensus, and sometimes people just decide that some things shouldn't remain on the wiki, or some things should be changed. Don't let it bother you as for everytime someone changes or removes something you did, you make 100s more contributions. The reason I bring this up here is because if you can't grasp the consensus process yourself as a normal user, then how can you be trusted determining consensus on discussions as an admin?

As I mentioned before, if it will help you then request the rollback and/or custodian rights. Adminship isn't something to be taken lightly, and it takes more than just being a determined editor to be trusted with the tools. A lot of things are taken into account, as I'm sure you've probably realised by now when reading through this thread. Keeping doing what you're doing, but do it in a way that doesn't cause disruption or break our policies (especially RS:UTP). xHR7zpA.png6encXAo.png 04:53, December 21, 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the extremely well put together response Jayden. Yea this is a wake up call honestly, and quite glad. My intentions here are only to help people, but sometimes it might not seem that way. I realize that things need to change and I'll try my best to do so. BTW you do a really good job @ giving constructive criticism without sounding aggressive at all. Props for that. User:Manhattan2/signature 05:05, December 21, 2017 (UTC)

Closed - Manhattan2 will not be given sysop tols at this time. User:Cqm/Signature

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