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'''Comment''' 3rd party software is not allowed, so there should be no pages advertising it.‎[[Image:Cooked_chicken.PNG‎]][[User:Atlandy|Atlandy]] 01:30, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
'''Comment''' 3rd party software is not allowed, so there should be no pages advertising it.‎[[Image:Cooked_chicken.PNG‎]][[User:Atlandy|Atlandy]] 01:30, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
'''Delete''' - This is basically advertising other programs! [[Image:Zaros_tally.PNG|Zaros FTW!]] [[User:I R Zaros|<span style="color:Purple;">'''I R Zaros'''</span>]] 11:14, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Revision as of 11:14, January 4, 2009


There are a few reasons that this page should be deleted.

1. It is from a third party, not a official Jagex site. It may contain things like keystroke loggers and password stealers.

2. Even though we are "All things about runescape", we do not have pages on all the other websites that are out there. ‎ File:Cooked chicken.PNGAtlandy 18:52, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Delete - Should we have a page about Firefox or Internet Explorer? Dtm142 18:54, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Keep - Obviously, the answer to that is no. However, that is somewhat irrelevant, as this isnt a generic web browser, it is a fan-made program, made for playing runescape, and is thus part of the player community. I can't see why someone would agree to delete it as there has been nothing but speculation as far as it containing malware, and that it does have a notable position in the Rule 7 Debates and such. I agree with Robert Horning, Just because JagEx didn't make it doesn't substantiate grounds for deletion. 1diehard1 22:17, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment - If this one is deleted then what about all the other articles about external websites? Andrew talk 18:56, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Which other articles about external websites are you referring to? Dtm142 19:08, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
Never-mind, I misread what you said. Andrew talk 01:37, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Keep - but with some reservations. Suggesting this software has keystroke loggers and password stealers is something that ought to be sourced and substantiated before being accused of that kind of behavior. In fact, that is libelous to even suggest such without anything more than suspecting anything not written by Jagex as malware. BTW, Jagex does have some guidelines for 3rd party apps that are even "valid" for use with Runescape... and don't even get me started on what is legal or illegal to use with the RS client. This website is also about Runescape, and the fact that it isn't something done by Jagex by itself shouldn't be automatic grounds for its removal. We are not Jagex, and frankly I think some additional information about the greater player community on this wiki would be useful. As for external websites.... this isn't the forum to debate them, but I don't see why valid articles about RuneHQ,, or other common and popular websites couldn't be written about. Again, we are not Jagex, and this wiki is about all things Runescape. --Robert Horning 19:45, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment While I understand that there is no proof of keyloggers and such, the fact that the article contains not only information on what the product is, but where to download may not be our place here on the wiki. I stated that it may have keyloggers, we do not know, nor will we ever know. Pages on other website is opening a huge door that we probably do not want to go down. The argument on what website should stay or go would be endless. I also understand that We are not Jagex, but we also have to decide what belongs and is worth of an article and what isn't. ‎File:Cooked chicken.PNGAtlandy 20:22, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
Please take this in the spirit of the debate and not a direct attack on you here. To give a similar analogy, I could say that you may be a pedophile, serial murderer, and extort hundreds of euros from players on the game that go to your secret Swiss bank account. That is precisely the kind of assertion you are making here about this software when you have absolutely no proof of this fact, and this is in fact libel, something that by itself is in fact illegal to do. That is, making such statements puts you in technically very dangerous waters legally speaking, so be careful about what more you say on this matter unless you have actual proof. Please, you are making trumped up charges here when it isn't necessary to make the decision about if this article about this software needs to remain on this wiki, and even making such assertions charges the atmosphere of this discussion in the first place.
Stick to the facts and don't blow things out of proportion here. This is software that is not written by Jagex but it does help assist players in a number of ways. It technically doesn't violate the terms of service that most players agreed to when you created your accounts, and furthermore there certainly is software which is "legal" to use that perhaps might violate those terms as well. This isn't malware, although suggesting that users beware of 3rd party software certainly is something valid to point out. Don't cross the line and assert more than you know.
If on the other hand you have run a virus check on this software and suspect it to be a keylogger, that is something completely different. But be prepared to back up your claims if you think this to be true. Asserting this may be a keylogger or something worse really destroys your credibility in arguing for the removal of this article when no such assertion can be made. --Robert Horning 04:53, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
I too like the debate, but to say that I implied that it has a keylogger is not true. I stated above that it may. The definition you provided me says that "a statement that makes a false claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government or nation a negative image.", I stated that it may not that it has. I understand what you are saying but it is like using the word allegedly. For example, OJ may or may not have killed his ex-wife and Ron Goldman, and when the media refers to him, they use the word alleged killer...isn't that the same thing I am doing? I am not making a false claim, nor am I really implying that Swiftkit does contain anything harmful. I am however saying that it may, and that we do not know if it does. ‎File:Cooked chicken.PNGAtlandy 14:53, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
No, it isn't the same thing as suggesting OJ may have killed his ex-wife. There were legitimate grounds for suspicion in suggesting that, which is why OJ Simpson was even brought before a judicial bar. By even bring up the potential here of this software being malware, you are suggesting something that is likely not true at all, and providing a fallacious argument here in guilt by association. You are automatically giving an unneeded negative impression of this software by immediately suggesting that it could be malware when you have absolutely no basis to even suggest that at all. For the record here, I've never used this software and know nothing about it at all, but if it was some computer software that I wrote, I would be demanding an apology from you for even suggesting it might be malware due to how you framed the initial VfD question. It is also completely unnecessary to even mention this potential at all in this discussion, and obfuscates the real issues that might be legitimate grounds for removal of this article. That it may or may not be malware when you have no proof of any kind at all certainly isn't a reason to keep or delete this article. --Robert Horning 20:25, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Doesn't the Runescape website warn all players throughout the game about using 3rd party software? Should we be talking about 3rd party software? Runescape also mentions that 3rd party software may contain keyloggers and malware. Am i not doing the same? The last paragraph on the Runescape website, in the rules section says not to trust Any 3rd party software. [1]. Shouldn't we follow that rule too? ‎File:Cooked chicken.PNGAtlandy 01:34, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

File:Cooked chicken.PNGAtlandy 01:31, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

My own opinion on this is that Jagex is being way, way overly alarmist and feeding paranoia when it isn't warranted. I supposed if you want a perfect world, you would operate a computer completely dedicated to just playing Runescape and nothing else, using only an official web browser explicitly supported by Jagex, or use the "official client" that Jagex produces. Yes, I've read the article in the knowledge base and while some of it is good advise, some of it is also pure bunk and unnecessary as well. Is the web browser the only piece of software you have ever installed on your computer? Do you use the computer which you play Runescape to do anything else?
Please, use virus scanners, trust nobody automatically, and keep your OS updates (especially security updates) current. Frankly, if you have the capability and are really paranoid, you should download only software that includes the source code and compile the software directly from that source code... and review the source code for what may be obvious security flaws. Most of us don't have the time to go that far, although I'll point out that most software that does include the source code is likely not to be malware.
There are some good 3rd party tools that do things like a quick check for GE prices, offer guides for quests or other tasks within the game, or help to keep a log of drops/kills. Be cautious, and be paranoid regarding software that directly controls the game environment directly. This particular software merely wraps Internet Explorer in a portion of the software (for loading the RS client) and has some side bars for extra tools. If there is a key-logger, password scanner, or other such malware, it was likely added by Microsoft and not the developers of this software. Don't get me started about software engineering standards at Microsoft.
BTW, I'll point out that some somewhat recent changes to the official client have come about explicitly due to this particular software "competing" and adding features not typically available to those players who don't have this "3rd party software". Most particularly is how the world switching is now completely within the Java code itself now instead of having to jump to an HTML page like used to be the case. --Robert Horning 08:47, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Keep - I definitely think SwiftKit has been a part of RuneScape's history (Unallowed, then allowed, etc.) Plus, this page is what showed my cousin the interface and made her want to use the program. Things like this show these things to the public for what they really are. Anything like this should NOT BE DELETED. Please? Ack612 00:24, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Delete - It's a 3rd Party Software Program...this is essential for our wikia because...???
This is about our player community. I guess a part of the debate here with this VfD is to decide if pages like this are something that can be written about here on this wiki, and to what extent do we draw the line on both 3rd party software packages that support RS players and perhaps even setting up articles about fansites. I do think some sort of notability standard ought to be applied, but that pages of this nature can and should be allowed. We certainly have the server space to support these pages, and plenty of administrators and others on the recent changes patrol to watch over them for vandalism and at least keep them from getting mauled. --Robert Horning 14:06, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Comment - If my page, 24 December, which is directly related to RuneScape and its history is not encyclopedic enough to have room in this wikia, then this DOES NOT. 01:34, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Please don't confuse the issues. The decision about discussing individual users is a long settled question. You can ask the community at large to reconsider it, but this isn't the same issue remotely. Don't take your sour grapes out on this particular article because something else was deleted for another reason. --Robert Horning 08:53, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm not upset about the 24 December article, I'm just saying there are policies about adding things like this on the wikia. If we can't make an exception for something as remote as that article why should we make the exception for something such as this. It's too inconsistent, so to be consistent at all times, the polices should be followed at all times, henceforth, this article is a violation. 01:59, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Comment - I think it has grounds to be on wikia, but if we were to delete it we'd need to mention it somewhere and/or make a page on third party software. (This is because it's mentioned in other articles like the riot page) File:D plate.png Garming Sam Dharok&#039;s greataxe 23:50, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Comment 3rd party software is not allowed, so there should be no pages advertising it.‎File:Cooked chicken.PNGAtlandy 01:30, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Delete - This is basically advertising other programs! Zaros FTW! I R Zaros 11:14, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

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