RuneScape:Yew Grove

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The Yew Grove is a page where community members can discuss larger changes to the wiki, such as policy proposal. As this page is viewed by a diverse number of editors, you can expect a fair and centralized discussion. Broadly construed, if the community would be interested in your topic, start it here.

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For promoting or beginning a project, use RuneScape:WikiGuild
For discussion of RuneScape itself, use the forums.
To list an ongoing discussion, use the RuneScape:Requests for comment directory.

.OGG readers, and what to do with Adventurers' Tales

As a wiki, we ~~stride~~ strive to become a good one. We already are, but there is one thing that we could defely use. As used by Wikipedia, having the ability to play .OGGs while a reader is reading an article could make the experience on this site better.

Having trouble pronouncing something? An .OGG could be played to show the reader how to say it. (I would be willing to do this.)
If anyone was willing to do such a thing, we could have narrations of articles.
Plus some other stuff, which escapes my ~~ming~~ mind at the moment.

Someone in #Wikia a while back said that to get an .OGG player, all one would have to do is request a staff member to install it, and it should be pretty much as simple as that.

But on another note, do we need RuneScape:Adventurers' Tales ~~anyone~~ anymore? RSFF covers that now. If we deleted it (or whatever a verdict may turn out to be), it wouldn't really do any damage, as the actual content is in the respective users' userpages.

So yeah, discuss and stuff. Chiafriend 12 Loon is best buttlord 05:50, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

I should stop trying to type stuff when I'm so tired. :")...

Chiafriend 12

Loon is best buttlord 19:18, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

OGG

Support - I like the idea of having .ogg's for articles (definition). And you don't need to worry Chia, I wont let your ideas escape your "ming" (lulz). =) CFLM ^{Talk # Sign} 06:04, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Support per myself. Chiafriend 12 Loon is best buttlord 19:18, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Support I'd be willing to do it with my *cough* webcam sound recorder. However, this will take up lots of space (just like animations). Ilyas Talk Contribs 19:25, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Lol I can also use my dad's headphones.

Ilyas Talk Contribs 19:41, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Support - It's a very good idea. Only difficulty is the large amount of articles, and we'd need to recreate oggs every time someone makes an edit. ---- Bigd56 ^[talk] ^[highscores] 01:54, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Support One good thing about this is Firefox 3.1 will have built-in .ogg support. A lot of words from RS are pronounced a lot of different ways,it would be great to know the proper way. - TehKittyCat 17:57, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Support per Chia. Also, if you want to pronounce RS words correctly, use the Postbags (they sometimes give pronunciations). User:C Teng/sig 02:43, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

comment Rather than changing everything to ogg, which would mean that to keep it up to date you'd need mayby 50 people who are expert at doing it, can pronounce all the words correctly and have little in teh way of an unintelligible accent changing it continually, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week without break. Rather than that, why don't we have a page with all the hard to say/pronounce words on a certain page, which uses .ogg formatt, so that people can learn how to pronounce the words.--Zilenserz^talk! ^{Join the RSWP today!} 14:28, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Adventurers' Tales

Neutral - Adventurers' Tales are fan-fiction, and I feel that they should belong in RSFF. I would like to suggest that a note is given to the authors to move their content to RSFF, and we put a note on the page to say "We have moved to RuneScape Fan Fiction, please list your stories in RSFF." az ^talk 12:01, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Keep Adventurers' Tales. The RSW and the RSFF Wiki are separate. There is no need for us to remove it. User:C Teng/sig 12:28, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

We may indeed be seperate, but both are run by the same community.

Chiafriend 12

Loon is best buttlord 19:18, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Support discontinuation - Per myself. Not really deleting it, but maybe removing most of the content and replacing it with 'yadda yadda, this has been discontinued and stuff, please use the RuneScape Fan Fiction Wiki instead'. Chiafriend 12 Loon is best buttlord 19:18, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Support per Chia. And it's "strive", not "stride". https://i.imgur.com/7kyt1iT.gif --WINE OF GOOD HEALTH _{(Actually Stinko)}

Same community? How do you know that? Just because you and a few other RS-Wikians go on, doesn't mean everyone does. What would we do with the old ones? Merge them into the other wiki? We're separate wikis! User:C Teng/sig 16:36, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

RSFF is part of the RSW community because nine out of ten users there (Heck, we don't even have ten active users XD) edit here also. And I meant "discontinuation" as in 'accepting no new submissions', or something. For the stuff already in the respective userpages, it would stay there, per RS:DEU. Lastly, I know both are separate wikis, but that definitely hasn't stopped our 'crats (two at least, I'm pretty sure) and others from trying to dump articles into another wiki. Go talk to them on that matter ;).

Chiafriend 12

Loon is best buttlord 03:23, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand why we even half to discontinue it. Sure, we can let RSFFWiki have it. That doesn't mean we can't accept submissions. What's wrong with that? And why would we direct other users to a different wiki? User:C Teng/sig 02:03, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Support Keeping

RSFF is for solely tales/fan fiction. the RSW is for All things runescape, including runescape tales. However, I think that Tales/stories should be created on the author/editor's page or subpage, otherwise we'd have to make a category for stories, so they didn't get mixed up with fact. Thanks.--Zilenserz^talk! ^{Join the RSWP today!} 14:23, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

The Yew Grove - Ground rules & censorship on the Wiki Guide to the Yew Grove

OK, from the recent spate of b****ing going on in the Yew Grove about other editors questioning the value of contributions, accusations of sockpuppeting, and polls about blocks, I think we need to lay down some ground rules. These will (if approved) be located at the top of this page under the "What this page should/should not..." section. So here goes...

Do not use language which others may find offensive - swearing, [I find B****ing offensive] blonde jokes, racial slurs etc.
Follow all behavioural guidelines, especially RS:AEAE, RS:DDD and RS:UTP.
Resolve disputes peacefully. That means no cheap shots and no come-backs.
Do not use this page to discuss other editor's blocks or bans, accuse others of breaking guidelines or criticising their editing styles. Use their talk page instead.

the list is obviously not complete, feel free to add to it. Thanks, CFLM ^{Talk # Sign} 15:50, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

This can be summed up as be respectful and considerate of others. Keep the same mature, professional attitude you would have at work (or school for those of you who don't work.) This is a community of responsible, knowledgeable people who share the same interest of providing accurate information to those who desire it. While people may have disputes, it does not belong on this page. This page is for discussion of community events, something that affects nearly everyone in the community. However witty and cool somebody may feel by talking back on the internet, it's really not as impressive as the originator may think it is. If it doesn't help better the encyclopedia, don't put it on this page. I understand that there are many younger users on this wiki who might not share the same sense of respect and equality as others, but now is the perfect time to start learning. Being a "badass" in the real world won't get you anywhere, and it won't get you anywhere here either. It takes a lot less effort, time, and energy to just be helpful and do the right thing. If you have a personal issue with somebody, use the wiki's e-mail, keep it off the talk pages. This will keep others from flaming and start even more problems. But please, respect other people, it will help everybody in the end. Karlis (talk) (contribs)

16:03, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

"This will keep others from flaming and start even more problems." - Did you mean "This will keep others from flaming and starting even more problems." or "This will keep others from flaming and stop even more problems."? https://i.imgur.com/7kyt1iT.gif --WINE OF GOOD HEALTH _{(Actually Stinko)}

Heh, thanks stinko. It will keep others from flaming and starting even more problems. Meaning if it is kept personal between two people, nobody else will be tempted to add their two cents. Karlis (talk) (contribs)

16:11, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Why do people that have been sysopped get to swear? They act like they have every right in the world to and they own the Wiki. It really bothers me. Just because you have a position of authority in the Wiki community doesn't mean you should get to say offensive things like cuss. File:Prayer.gif Jediadam4 File:Abyssal Whip.gif 18:39, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm a little confused on this previous statement. The only two sysops who have commented on this are myself and stinko, and I found all of our comments to be clean. I will look again though. Karlis (talk) (contribs)

18:46, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Im not sure I entirely understand your concern Jedi. If the policies are the same as the of the beginning of my hiatus then swearing can be used on the wiki provided it's not being used to direct an attack on another user. Generally most people don't swear every second line as it dosen't look very proffesional. But certainly provided you are keeping your comments neutral and constructive I really don't have a problem with "cuss". --Whiplash 18:51, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I see: Do not use language which others may find offensive - swearing. All I have to say to that is that this is NOT kindergarten. We had a debate on this awhile back and I rembember that the consencus of it was that swearing is allowed on the wiki provided it's not being directed at a user. As far as Im concerned the swearing thing should be removed. --Whiplash 18:59, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

And to think this was supposed to solve problems... Anyway, I think RS:AGF should be added to the list. All too often people jump to the conclusion that someone is up to no good.

bufar_(talk)

19:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

As a policy or two may inhibit discussion, RS:IAR in particular should be added.

Adding on to the rules on "wittiness", what we need to avoid is active moderating. One-line comments like "Xpkerpure, please use proper grammar" and "lolonoob, remember that RS:AEAE" aren't helping anyone and can turn the Yew Grove into a uncomfortable or even hostile environment. 20:07, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to have to side with Whiplash on this. Swearing is part of daily life, and 99% of the time it is not directed at anybody. This is generally accepted as okay, as it is not intended to offend or upset anybody. If somebody takes offense to every "swear" or "curse/cuss word" thrown around, they're in for a lifetime of disappointment. Certain words carry with them a highly offensive meaning, and should not be used, imo, but for the most part, provided it isn't aimed at anybody, it is fine. Karlis (talk) (contribs)

20:11, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

In response to the unregistered users comment above. Most behavioural policies on the wiki are not seriously enforced, perhaps with the exception of the user treatment policy. --Whiplash 20:16, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I really think we should keep the "no swearing" rule ONLY on the YG, because I can guarantee that nobody will have legitimate cause to "cuss" about a subject of discussion posted here. (If you wish to debate this, please provide an example where swearing would be acceptable in a communal discussion).

CFLM ^{Talk # Sign} 07:26, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

If you ask me, swearing should be prohibited/limited to talk pages and userpages only. I know of young kids who frequent this Wiki looking for information on RS and whatnot. Although "99% of swearing" is not directed at anybody, this gives the impression that swearing is cool and okay. We do not want to instill this perception that swearing is acceptable, especially among younger kids. I don't think swearing is offensive, but I flinch every time I see a swear word in this wiki, knowing that some kid might see it and start using it at school the next day. Imagine when the teacher asks "Where did you learn that word?" and the kid replies: "The RuneScape Wiki - the wiki for all things RuneScape." LOL. az ^talk 07:39, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

You do have a point az, but at some time people need to come to the realization that we're not living a sheltered life, and the real world exists. I agree that swearing should not be allowed in articles, but on discussion pages such as this one, talk pages and such, certain non-offensive words that are considered "swear words" are acceptable, imo. If the concern is about young children seeing "bad words" and using them the next day, then the Player Dictionary article needs to be deleted. In all honesty, television is far more vulgar than pretty much anything kids will see here. Karlis (talk) (contribs)

16:01, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the edit conflict Karlis =P, here was my original message...
Azliq: I completely agree with you. How about limiting swearing to user talk pages and the player dictionary, because according to RS:DEU, we're not allowed to have swearing on user pages. Since this discussion is tipping over to a debate about the censorship on the RuneScape Wiki, I've changed the title to observe the views of others concerning the oppression of vulgar language amongst the younger people who may visit our Wiki.
Karlis: the player dictionary has a language warning at the top of the page. Now regarding your comparison between the Wiki and TV. Television censorship (where I live) is much harsher than the Wiki's, there are content warnings, ratings and restricted time periods when shows and movies can be shown. Although I do not want our Wiki to end up like this, I do propose some protection. Moving on... "...certain non-offensive words that are considered "swear words" are acceptable..." I think that no swear word is acceptable, but some are tolerated more than others. The word "crap" would be more socially acceptable than "f***", right?

CFLM ^{Talk # Sign} 16:28, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Gonna reset this back to the left. I understand the difference in censorship based on countries, but I find some things trivial to censor. And yeah, I know about the language warning on the top of the page, but if a child is going to "learn curse words" from the wiki, a warning is not going to stop them. Now back to my opinions of trivial censorship. Words such as "damn", "hell" and "crap" are generally accepted by younger kids as borderline "bad words" yet are acceptable pretty much everywhere. I agree that certain four letter words are too far, but we need to have a more realistic stand.

OK, from the recent spate of b****ing going on in the Yew Grove...

..work has been a pain in the a** this week...

...I have had a lot of sh** going on this week...

These all have "curse" words in them, by traditional standards, yet are not offensive. I want to know why something like this should be censored, when all that these words are doing are simply adding emotion to the sentence. Not that I am arguing that I display anything like this on my page, nor would I put it on anybody elses page, but I don't believe people should be shunned for it, or it should be looked down upon because the user is a little bit more mature than others. Karlis (talk) (contribs)

16:58, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Seconded.

earth_(t) 01:50, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, so I agree with you on the point that some words should be acceptable. Now going back to what you said, I really don't see that adding emotion to one's opinions stated here in the Yew Grove is a necessity. I proposed these guidelines because I have observed experienced editors drop the "s" bomb in discussions and use it excessively. THAT sort of language is what I want to control in the YG. And BTW, "b****ing" is a verb.

CFLM ^{Talk # Sign} 08:38, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Sure "some" words may be acceptable, but which ones should be accepted? How do we decide which ones are acceptable, and which ones are not? I feel that since this Wiki is about RuneScape, I propose that we follow the censorship based on the RuneScape game itself, i.e. the Chat filter. Jagex had introduced the Chat filter to filter out profanities and swear words from the game because they knew who the game was catered to: for people of all ages; played by people from different origins (countries) and ethnicities. Being a Wiki dedicated to RuneScape, our audience/visitors will be the same people playing RuneScape. I wouldn't mind if swearing is allowed in a Wiki dedicated to "GTA: San Andreas" where the game itself is rated Mature (17+), but on RSWiki...? What I would like to see among editors (especially admins) is self-censorship: in Project pages (like this one), article talkpages, "edit summaries", etc. See this page: So What's Wrong with Cussing? az ^talk 12:32, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I keep a sense of professionalism on the wiki, so I do whatever I can to keep my language clean and civil. What people type on talk pages and user pages is their own thing. Let me try to summarize... On pages with community discussions or where the general public of the wiki is going to view, I agree that language should be kept clean. On userpages, actually maybe just user pages and subpages, we should be a little bit more lax. I disagree with people posting profanity on others' talk pages, so I guess just your own userpage, really. I stick with my initial post in this discussion, I feel it sums up well how I feel. Where that was more directed at overall attitude, it could apply to language as well. Be respectful and mindful of others. Karlis (talk) (contribs)

12:41, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Furthermore, this discussion has turned into whether or not profanity is okay, and it has been drawn away from guidelines and overall "appropriate attitude" when discussing on the yew grove. Lets recap for those who don't feel like scrolling up, and highlight other areas that need to be discussed...

*Do not use language which others may find offensive - swearing, blonde jokes, racial slurs etc.

Follow all behavioural guidelines, especially RS:AEAE, RS:DDD and RS:UTP.
Resolve disputes peacefully. That means no cheap shots and no come-backs.
Do not use this page to discuss other editor's blocks or bans, accuse others of breaking guidelines or criticising their editing styles. Use their talk page instead.

I will finish this when I get to work, time to go! Karlis (talk) (contribs)

12:46, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, let me just provide some background information about the proposed additions.
...blonde jokes, racial slurs etc. This is based on the guidelines which many users of the official RuneScape Forums may be familiar about, this was taken from the Forum Code of Conduct.
...Resolve disputes peacefully. That means no cheap shots and no come-backs. This is based on Wikipedia's dispute resolution and civility policies and the negotiation essay. Our Wiki is based on consensus, and it will only keep going is if we can make decisions peacefully without contributors getting angry. Sure, a debate is healthy and is what brings up brighter and more efficient ideas, but don't go overboard.
Use their talk page instead. OK, the main thinking behind this was the debate over a certain editor's recent indefinite block. I thought that an argument regarding an editor or the status of their account would be better suited to a user talk page, rather than the YG.
I agree with Az on the censoring of words according to RuneScape. CFLM ^{Talk # Sign} 13:44, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Agreed with Az. This wiki already is enforced according to most RuneScape rules, I can't really see why, with a few exceptions, this shouldn't be the case here. Now, my question is about euphemisms... For example, crud over crap, for instance. I don't see why these would be any problem, though I'm open to discussion on that. --Pikaandpi 13:51, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

My argument is that language of an offensive nature should be removed because there is no reasonable cause to use it in the first place. When are we going to use the word "crud" when talking about our Wiki?

CFLM ^{Talk # Sign} 13:54, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'll have to admit I'm not sure how to respond in terms to the first sectence, as it kinda renders what I was going to say obslete <_< Buto for example "I'm sick and tired with all this crap" could easily be replaced with "I'm sick and tired with all this crud." Not so much talking "about" the Wiki, but within the Wiki about, say, RuneScape itself or whats happening in the real world. --Pikaandpi 13:59, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Language of an offensive nature, yes. If you are offended by the word crap, it's time to grow up a little bit. Karlis (talk) (contribs)

14:02, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

When you put it that way... obviously the word is not offensive, "You're a piece of crap", "You're full of crap" can rub off as an attack.

CFLM ^{Talk # Sign} 14:06, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Nothing personal, Karlis. But, "Crap" by definition is excrement and the act of defecating. See The Free Dictionary's first two definitions. The dictionary also mentions it as a "vulgar slang". Although I'm not offended by euphemism use of the word, the word itself is disgusting, and similar words may be used instead. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Azliq7 (talk) on 14:14, 9 October 2008 (UTC).

Lets just put it this way. RuneScape requires their users to be age 13 or over. We can follow similar guidelines. Children 13 years old are mature enough to deal with some words. From what it seems, there is going to be no way to settle this as non-offensive words can be used in an attack. I think we are going to have to deal with this on a case-by-case basis. If I see something like "All I got form my slayer mission was a bunch of crap" or "I didn't get a damn thing from barrows" I'm not going to take any action, as it would be rediculous. If it is an attack at another player, then obviously the circumstances are different. I really think we need to get off the topic of offensive language and more on the topic of offensive content. There is a huge difference between the two. Karlis (talk) (contribs)

14:20, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Guide to the Yew Grove

OK, since the current discussion seems to be going nowhere, I have another proposal. Instead of having the "rules" section as stated above, I think we should have a link to a Yew Grove Guide essay. It would state the rules (remember, ESSAY, which means you don't have to follow them) and much more stuff, like how to make a proposal, giving feedback, etc. I'll start drafting. What do you think? CFLM ^{Talk # Sign} 04:54, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a interesting idea, where would you put it on the wiki to make sure everyone who needs to view it can view it? --File:Wooly hat.PNG Rune ldr 88 03:58, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking probably at the top of this page...

CFLM ^{Talk # Sign} 04:49, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Sure, that sounds good. The essay looks fine so far. User:C Teng/sig 02:06, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

There should be no cursing at all for a few very simple reasons:

We attempt to follow the same fifteen rules that Jagex established in game and rule number one is no swearing.
RuneScape:User treatment policy states: If you have a disagreement do not try to solve the issue with verbal insults or by using profanities. The use of profanity, even if not directly used to berate someone else violates this policy in any argument.
We are primarily an encyclopedia. I can't see any reason why even on the article talk pages someone would use cursing unless they have a limited vocabulary or are trying to be "edgy".
RuneScape is skewed primarily towards children. Though this place is not a "shelter" as has been noted above, it is even less a place to be exposed to such things.
Would you use epithets when talking to someone you just met or in front of a large crowd? This is essentially what it is like writing on the Internet and often people forget that there are other human beings on the other side. There is no chance that you can offend someone by not swearing but there is a chance that you could offend them by swearing so to me, the choice between the two is obvious.
It's just basic common decency to curb the language.

--Diberville 17:16, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

New Additions to the Main Page

While browsing some other sites, I figured a featured picture and a "Did you know?" section would make the main page more attractive. These would be changed monthly. Arias Knight 03:39, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

What are you suggesting we put in that section? Trivia? Updates? What? --

Spencer ^{(Talk | Edits | Contribs)} 03:52, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

A high quality picture showing something in RuneScape and just some info people might find interesting. Perhaps we could tie in all that scattered trivia to become something people will read in an organized section? Arias

Knight 05:06, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Great idea.. I suggest using facts from the Trivia section. For example: "Did you know that if a player loses their God book, they can go back to Jossik who will have found it "washed up ashore" and get it back for free, complete with all the pages it had beforehand." (from the God books article) az ^talk 05:13, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

The featured picture should be a high resolution picture of really well done areas of the game. Sounds like a great idea. File:Gnomegoggleswithcap.png TEbuddy 02:38, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

On the note of new content to the Main Page, i was thinking something similar to the RS GE DB's Item of the Week would give a nice touch as small side widget or some such perhaps nestled under the CTI Today: 158.11 +0.43 section. Of course it would have to be relatively brief in size say only the item's name, inventory icon image, and examine text. Considering the sheer quantity of items it could actually be an Item of the Day feature, however I think that would be too much churn for this wiki currently.

REDIRECT user:kytti khat/sig 19:20, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I like the idea of adding a small "Did You Know" section. Add some trivia or useful tips in minigames or skills. User:C Teng/sig 02:10, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Should this be put on Talk:RuneScape Wiki? User:C Teng/sig 21:00, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Registration Revision (take 3)

Read this before you start commenting.

The amount of users blanking their talk page has dramatically increased, and personally, I think that needs attention. I am once again suggesting we change the registration messages to include a nutshell version of the rules because it's getting VERY old leaving a mention of RS:DDD on what seems like every new user's talk page. Personal images? WAY down since the last time I tried this, so I'm not concerned about that issue currently. Still, the amount of talk page blanking is out of hand.

The last time I brought this up, ONE PERSON suggested something, after which the suggestion was never posted in again. Don't leave me hanging, here...https://i.imgur.com/7kyt1iT.gif --WINE OF GOOD HEALTH _{(Actually Stinko)}

I agree 100%. I also think that we still should outline the personal image rule a bit more as well. But as far as this suggestion goes, there have been times I wanted to protect their talk page just so they'd leave it alone. Maybe we could offer a short guide to archiving so if they want a blank talk page, they could simply do that rather than just blanking it all. Karlis (talk) (contribs)

12:44, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I have to totally support the archiving tutorial, or perhaps even something more turnkey for those less inclined to follow such (an archive button or widget perhaps, but that might be beyond the scope of current capabilities). Perhaps many of these users are expecting blog like behaviour where older entries just float off the first page. We obviously can't give them that, however anything to ease and educate about archiving would be I believe the most helpful way to alleviate this problem en masse.

REDIRECT user:kytti khat/sig 17:09, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this is possible, but if it was, I'd probably support. There should be something like "Welcome to the RuneScape Wiki! Please read here for the rules or risk being blocked." --Oh crap... it's not ban evasion, is it? 05:19, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

The information needs to be added in the welcome message at least, if not required before registering. And speaking of, I just did two of these things recently, I think, which I didn't know were against the rules - AND I GENERALLY PAY ATTENTION AND READ!

Now, having become aware of the issues, since my stuff got reverted or deleted, I went searching for why. I discovered some vague discussion of not blanking User Talk pages, but I can't find the "Rule" against it. And yes, I've looked.

Clearly this rule needs to be put somewhere where it's findable. I hunted through the links on my welcome note in my talk page, nada. At least I didn't find it. Maybe I'm stupid?

Also, not finding the rule about personal images. I've heard references to it here and there, in discussions, but I haven't seen "The Rule" so I can read it and figure out what's allowed and what isn't.

I'm sorry to be such an idiot, but I do want to point out, if I read, and if I try to follow the rules and be a good citizen here, and I can't figure it out, how are the even more clueless supposed to do it?

Also, there are style guides around. I know, cause I've seen mentions of them when something goes wrong - indignant comments about "doesn't that idiot know X violates the style guide". Speaking as an idiot who would be thrilled to comply with a style guide, if I could find it, where the heck are these beasties? Uh, found them. Warned you before I was an idiot.

I'm sure all these items exist in logical places, and once you already know where they are, it's obvious and logical. But please look at it from the new editor perspective. I've been actively editing for a while now, and I this is one maze I haven't navigated yet. Mamabear47 21:19, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

ALSO (wow, I thought had got it all out of my system), also, I can't tell who admins are! When someone says, "You did that wrong", I don't know if they are speaking with an official voice or just some other editor disagreeing. This is another area where people "in the know" know what's going on, and everyone else bumbles around in the dark, likely pissing off those who already know.

I don't know who the admins (or whatever) are. I would like to be able to tell instantly by looking at their signature! In the game - and we model ourselves on Jagex, right? - Jagex mods and player mods have a gold or silver crown next to their nick. You know, absolutely, if someone is just spouting their own opinion or if they're speaking with authority.

What does this have to do with registration? Um, well, it's tenuous, BUT it's yet another area where newbies need to be encultrated, taught the rules and customs of our group, or they will either anger the "oldtimers" or get frustrated and not contribute. Mamabear47 21:26, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Knowing whom the sysops here are really shouldn't matter too much. Because this wiki follows the principle that RuneScape:All_editors_are_equal, therefore no one speaks "with authority". What SHOULD happen when someone thinks you did something wrong, is they should provide a link to the rule or guide that is relevant so you can read it. And if there is disagreement between two people after reading it, use the policys talk page or the Yew Grove for clarification and comment from others.--Varthlokkur 10:38, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

For your information:

A list of admins/sysops can be found at: RuneScape:Administrators.
All policies can be found at: Category:Policies
Any help regarding editing and such can be found at the sidebar (Monobook version) under the "Help" link. Or here: Help:Contents.

Several users, unregistered and registered, have been blanking their talk pages as of late (one of those links is from September, but you get the idea). This needs attention, and SOON. Need I say more? https://i.imgur.com/7kyt1iT.gif --WINE OF GOOD HEALTH _{(Actually Stinko)}

Aside from just being against the rules, why does it matter if someone blanks their talk page? Does it spam recent changes or something? File:Gnomegoggleswithcap.png TEbuddy 08:01, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

F2P Userstats Template

How about this as an example of a f2p users stats. Its a bit cleaner to remove all the p2p skills. At the moment the total level is calculated by adding all the f2p skills together plus 9 for the p2p skills which would be level 1 for free players.

Any ideas on things to add/remove/change etc. or is it a waste of time completely? -- Mercifull ^(Talk) 13:42, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I like it. It looks way cleaner than having tons of 1's on a complete table. CFLM ^(Talk) 15:22, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Nice. By the way, I've added the documentation for it. Rectify it if there's any mistakes. az ^talk 15:34, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I just delete all the members-only fields on my userpage, which leaves a lot of ----s. But this looks better. I don't think we should have a separate number for f2p total level, that might make it look like your total level is lower than it actually is. User:C Teng/sig 02:25, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Favourite and Wiki worlds

Do you think there should be a ptp and ftp world that is sort of the wiki's official world? Not anything set in stone, but it would be nice to have a world where most wikians hang out on. It could be used to promote community‎File:Pumpkin.PNG Atlandy 22:36, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a great idea - it would be nice to bump into wikians out and about. ;-) Shame we can only nominate two favourite servers. I am usually on 84 (UK P2P) for day-to-day stuff. Leevclarke ^talk http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb290/leevclarke/RuneScape/Max%20Bulldog/Max_logo_mini.png http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb290/leevclarke/RuneScape/bulldog_puppy.png 03:33, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree, and world 84 happens to be my home world too :-D. Maybe have the home worlds be: World 84 for P2P and World 81 for F2P. - TehKittyCat 04:35, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Why not have the f2p world be 19, I think those two together would be quite memorable and since 19 is a 'us' world it will span that puddle of water.

REDIRECT user:kytti khat/sig 16:55, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I like it, but let's set some boundries here before we make a final decision. I think these boundaries could easily be agreed on:

One F2P and one P2P
No QuickChat Worlds
No PvP Worlds
LootShare Worlds (not really mandatory, but it'd be great for Wiki Events or teaming up in training)
Ideally, a "neutral" world, where it has no reccomended activity (less outside intervention for those activities)
Ideally, not one of the first 10-20 worlds, as they can be difficult to log into.

Any objections to the above? --Pikaandpi 17:26, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

- Wish things like this didn't get lost in the huge yew grove page....Any world is fine with me. Perhaps a poll on the front page to let everyone vote on it? ‎File:Cooked chicken.PNGAtlandy 18:49, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
  - I agree with Pikaandpi's suggestion. Which worlds should we use? User:C Teng/sig 02:31, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
    - Arrgh! This is getting lost in the Yew Grove for something that is very useful! I would recommend worlds that are pretty representative, perhaps have lootshare, and an "average" player load (not a world with a whole bunch of players typically like worlds 1 & 2). A further suggestion would be to make the world something in England, USA, or Canada due to bandwidth needs. I agree with the quickchat & PvP restrictions mentioned above! I only suggest America due to a number of Americans who edit on this wiki. How about World 28 for P2P and World 29 for F2P? Worlds 84 & 81 are both in England (not really a big deal for me) and world 81 isn't a lootshare world, although 29 is. Some food for thought. --Robert Horning 05:50, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
      - If we use Worlds 28 and 29, where would we show it? Could we put a link on the Maintop to RuneScape:Wiki world and put something on the Sitenotice? User:C Teng/sig 12:39, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
        i strongly recommend world 80 for a F2P world —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Btzkillerv (talk).
        Why? User:C Teng/sig 12:29, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
        Sorry i just remembered world 80 is PvP now, it should be world 81, because it is a transition world and not much people go on it due to regional preferences, but world 81 is also a trade center and my home world, the cons are that it has a medium-high player population

File:ExplorerRing3.png Btzkillerv has entered the building! File:Cape blue.png 17:06, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

The reason I was suggestion worlds 28 & 29 have to do with the fact that they have a high bandwidth network connection, are consecutively numbered, neither one is a themed world other than the fact that they are loot-share worlds, and otherwise fit all of the above requirements. Being consecutively numbered helps to keep track of where the member world is at if you are F2P and vice versa. I am also trying to be genuinely neutral in this selection and not just selecting it because it is my "home world" or that i have any special attraction to it. BTW, world 81 isn't a "lootshare world", if that makes this selection any easier.

Other "pairs" of servers like this include worlds 47&48 (USA), 75&76(USA), 112&113(Aus/Can), and 117&118 (Sweden). While I'm not calling Stockholm a 3rd world country for its internet connectivity, I don't know if it is the best place for a user base that is scattered around the world. I really think the selection of worlds ought to be restricted to just these five pairs of servers unless there is a very strong rationale other than "it is my home world". Worlds 28&29 are the "first" pair, using an otherwise rational approach rather than trying to get emotional here. Everybody has a world they started on or got attached to for some reason or another. My personal "favorites" are worlds 30 & 66, but I'm not trying to push either one here and only mentioning it due to disclosure of my bias. --Robert Horning 14:48, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

I love the idea of "paired" worlds to make it easier to remember ‎File:Cooked chicken.PNGAtlandy 15:10, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah, let's make the worlds 28 & 29. User:C Teng/sig 03:47, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

RS:IMP

What is the process to move a proposed policy into actual policy? My guess, "Consensus", as such I'm asking for a quick vote on the Image and Media Policy.

Support - naturally since I am the one wanting to finalise this.

REDIRECT User:Kytti khat/sig 04:15, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Comment - Looks great, though I'm not sure about one item, that is videos not to be used in articles. We have many, many videos in articles, and I'm sure we don't want to be deleting them all. I support apart from that. Hurston 17:59, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

The term 'video' seems unclear as of your posting, so along with other proposed policies these should be reviewed imo.

REDIRECT User:Kytti khat/sig 01:29, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Support - Everything seems to be in order.--
Azaz129 ^Talk ^Edits ^Contribs
18:40, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Comment - Do project-related images include images used in the Yew Grove or in the Talk namespace (besides in signatures)? For example, if someone uploaded an image to show an example for a talk page, but the image isn't used anywhere else. User:C Teng/sig 12:46, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Proposed policies

There are other Proposed policies that need to be revisited, and some of them are really, really old.

On another note, I'd like to "nominate" the Quest style guide written by Endasil to be included in our official Style guide. It needs some modifications, but I think it is well written and should be made "official". az ^talk 03:24, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

If Endasil's quest style guide is ready, why not go ahead and move it over to RS:QSG?

REDIRECT User:Kytti khat/sig 01:49, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Done. I've expanded the RuneScape:Quest style guide to include the layout for a quest page. Feel free to tinker with it. az ^talk 17:31, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

RFAP needs to be deleted. It's almost completely wrong (anyone can participate in RfAs and there are no prerequisites that need to be fulfilled to be nominated), the page is still under construction and its creator has left the wiki. Speedy D it.--Diberville 17:35, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

RS:DSA

This particular proposed policy seems to be nothing more than a specific instance of the ownership and bias section of the style guide. As such I believe it would be best to redirect RS:DSA to that section of the style guide, and possibly incorporate it into the style guide as opposed to having it as it's own policy.

REDIRECT User:Kytti khat/sig 01:55, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

RS:DSA gives much more information than the small bullet point in the Ownership and bias section in the Style Guide. If we decide to delete the page, I think that we should give it its own subsection in the Style Guide. User:C Teng/sig 13:03, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Agree ~

REDIRECT User:Kytti khat/sig 17:29, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with C Teng. Karlis (talk) (contribs)

17:42, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

RS:S

I'd really like to see this one brought to life (along with RS:IMP)

REDIRECT User:Kytti khat/sig 17:29, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Support - I agree, that's why I undeleted it.--

Azaz129

^Talk ^Edits ^Contribs

17:32, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Template:Navbox

There are many uncategorised templates in Special:UncategorizedTemplates (about 500+ templates; excluding signatures).

As this wiki contains lots of navigation box templates (Navbox templates), I would like to propose the use of Template:Navbox to all existing navbox templates, similar to the way most Userboxes use Template:Userbox.

The purpose of this template is "to standardise certain attributes of all navigation boxes, for example, their colours and other CSS attributes." Certain features, such as Javascript collapsing, will be added in the future. (Javascript collapsing is available in Wikipedia's Navbox templates.) By using this template, these features can be implemented much quicker and easier than editing each template separately. In addition to that, we would be able to add the navbox templates to Category:Navigational templates automatically.

This template project was started by Skill in April 2008, but was never implemented. So, should we proceed with it? I've added some examples of its usage in the documentation page. If this project gets the go-ahead, then users who are familiar with templates may use this template for future navbox templates, and edit the existing templates. az ^talk 17:03, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I think this would be cool; I just changed the "toccolours" class to "navbox" and changed the width option.--Richard^talk 18:35, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Shall I proceed with this? It is really frustrating when a user always reverts all the changes I make to a template using the Navbox template. az ^talk 15:15, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I too have noticed the same and don't really know how to proceed with regards to the recurring uncommented reversions. It's possible that template nesting is just a little more abstract than some might be comfortable with, however I really feel that this is the way to go to get a consistent look and feel across the wiki.

REDIRECT User:Kytti khat/sig 17:48, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

On a related note, i am biased towards auto widths, however i recognise that that for auto to be the default width there needs to be a way to make multiple navbox templates on a single article size consistently up to the largest ones size (javascript?).

REDIRECT User:Kytti khat/sig 17:48, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd go for 100% widths as it is in Wikipedia. Auto-widths will make the templates inconsistent (across the wiki) if you ask me. Some templates have 40% and 70%, while others will require close to 100% width. Even if we choose to make the templates follow the largest width for the particular page (i.e. the Prayer article) using JavaScript and whatnot, the template width will be different for other articles. If we're going to standardise the templates, why not standardise the widths as well? Just an opinion. az ^talk 15:07, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I've added the "collapsible" function to the template. This function adds the "show/hide" link to a template. The default is currently set to "show". When you try "hiding" an auto-width template, the template "shrinks" too much. =O Try it (in the documentation page)... Which is why I think Wikipedia uses 100% width. az ^talk 16:12, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Well if following Wikipedia's style is so important then we have a lot to change. for instance using pipe characters as separator's (which forces us to use the ! template). But more important would be putting group titles on the side rather than top and centred (which is quite a waste of vertical space. Vertical space as you know is the more scare of any screen's dimensions (regardless if its a 4x3 aspect ratio or 16x9). Additionally the ability for subgroups would be very helpful for larger navigations boxes. here's an example of the sort of navbox that i think could suit us well:

File:Example navbox1.png

Even better would be the ability to have multi levels of title nesting. Imagine a nav box that was called "armour" the three main groups are of course melee, range, and magic, and under each of those three would be chest armour, leg armour, head armour, specific to the armour type (e.g., coif). that would look like this:

File:Example navbox2.png

At the very least i feel that putting titles on the left with the list of links immediately to the right of the title is the way to go for 100% width nav templates. As it is now small templates have slews of white space on both sides, if we at least contain the white space on one side it will give a lot more consistent look and feel if 100% is to be defacto. As for inconsistent sizes with auto i think those would matter little if the text were on the left like wikipedia (which you've mentioned numerous times as the justification for 100% width).

REDIRECT User:Kytti khat/sig 19:55, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I think auto-widths is better than 100% width, 100% width makes the template look too long. Naikiw 11:46, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Improved version

This is how the navigation template will look if it is left-aligned with 100% width. I haven't looked into sub-grouping yet, but I think this will cover most templates... az ^talk 19:01, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Sign me up for this version, looks great.

REDIRECT User:Kytti khat/sig 05:18, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I like the navboxes. But why does {{talk page}} have to be put on all the navbox talk pages? I thought we could make the "d" only show up if the talk page existed. User:C Teng/sig 15:15, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I think that has been corrected now.

REDIRECT User:Kytti khat/sig 03:02, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Request for forumadminship

Okay, since, with InstantWinston's RfA, we now seem to be having forumadminship requests, I propose a third category of the "Requests for..." pages: forumadminship. Just like with RfBs, they will still fall under the RfA page, but will have the option to instead have forumadminship. A draft of the proposed page is here. Butterman62 (talk) 21:47, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

No, i like it the way it is now, Sysop = sysop. Forum or wiki. Why should we split it..? Buzz ^{(Talk • # • √ • P )} 10:18, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Because we already have, in InstantWinston's RfA already. We already have those requests; I just propose that we have a seperate category for them. And I mean requests for full forumadminship. If someone is a sysop, it only gives them forum modship. Butterman62 (talk) 11:27, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I would agree that we need to separate it out, if only to avoid the confusion that we saw with InstantWinston's RfA. We also need some way of getting the attention of the people on the forums, since it affects them most. I know admins are also forum admins, but most of them do not do so. Someone who wants to be purely a forum admin will no doubt be active on the forums, so it would be nice that for such a position, there would have to be a standard forum post to let everyone on the forums know. Hurston 13:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, how I think it works (and is really why we need a Requests for forumadmin page), is that if a person is sysopped, they get forum modship. Forum adminship, however, does not need sysopping. Forumadmins actually have more abilities than forum mods, so I think InstantWinston will be made a forumadmin. But yeah, I just want to avoid the confusion. Also, we need a really good guide on the forums, which explains all the user groups and stuff. Butterman62 (talk) 21:47, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

This makes a lot of sense. Had Instants RFA been for forums only from the first day, it would have passed a couple weeks ago most likely. And setting a policy now could be a great benefit as other forum users may start thinking of doing the same thing also.--Degenret01 10:59, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Support i support your idea only instead of making a new section why not just do it in the forums? If its something about the forums the decision should be made there. but for this to work the forum would need to be out of beta and have a rank system. Maybe you should be a candidate for one you have a lot of good ideas and strong community support. God Of War 06:38, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I kinda like how only bureaucrats get forumadmin, because if you're a sysop on the wiki, you're automatically a forum moderator. The only extra stuff you get with forum admin is the ability to arrange and add/remove different forums/sections. --User:Charitwo/Sig 23:41, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

This has already been discussed here, FYI. 71.246.119.3 22:08, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

That topic is not the same thing. The topic you linked was about whether there should be additional forum groups in the first place. Since that's already happened, this topic is just to propose a seperate rfa category for them.

People, this is not a request to put additional forum groups in or whether we should have more forumadmins. Those topics have already been done with. This topic is just to create a seperate category for them. Butterman62 (talk) 23:16, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Support, it would certainly be more efficient and cleaner to simply create a seperate category for this in order to avoid the confusion of Instant's RfA. I disagree with the forums being the place for this to occur; however, is it not only easier to keep track of a page history on the wiki but more honest. I'll elaborate, on on the forums there is no edit history and although there is a deletion history of who deleted what thread, there is currently no way to tell if a post on a thread has been deleted or who deleted it (not that I'm saying anyone would do this, but for the sake of keeping it as honest a process as possible it should remain on the wiki.)--

Azaz129

^Talk ^Edits ^Contribs

19:27, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Exchange prices - bot flag - exceptions; help needed

Exchange prices

OK I took some time to put together a solution to updating Exchange prices almost automatically:

Question: In an ideal world how often should they be updated? I'm going for daily at the moment.

Daily sounds right IMO.--Richard^talk 18:48, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Bot flag

If someone wants to mark my account as a bot account, please do. All GE price updates are marked as minor as it is.

Done!--Richard^talk 18:48, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Exceptions;help needed

There are some 3-400 items I can't update at the moment. Help is needed fixging these up.

Most need an item ID adding - this can be found by looking the item up on Jagex's GE database and on the page specific to that item the ID number is in the URL.

There is a list Category:Exchange items with no ID and the talk page has the GE names for all GE items with their ID number Category talk:Exchange items with no ID

Items with other problems will also tend to show up at Category:Grand Exchange by date updated I developed this some time ago to assist with manual updates.

Rich Farmbrough, 15:14 21 November 2008 (GMT).

Ok, I will try to add some item ids this weekend. - TehKittyCat 22:41, 5 December 2008 (UTC).

All finished, the only remaining ones with no item id are ones for speedy deletion. - TehKittyCat 18:08, 6 December 2008 (UTC).

All of the pages in there have been deleted or fixed now. - TehKittyCat 20:06, 6 December 2008 (UTC).

Update to updates

I've modified the process to only write changes in the normal course of events. The current run needs to complete, thenceforward all prices will be updated only if they change or on Wednesday or Saturday (this is partly to pick up new/fixed items). Rich Farmbrough, 18:31 21 November 2008 (GMT).

Now my kitty curiosity is tingly, where is the base of operations of "the process"?

REDIRECT User:Kytti khat/sig 18:51, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Where? On my desktop. I suck the data from Jagex, compare with the previous and make a list of things to change, then cycle through the GE items and change them. Rich Farmbrough, 16:05 22 November 2008 (GMT).

Shared help

Does shared help sound beneficial to this wiki? On the surface it seems ideal for nearly any and every wiki. Let's implement this unless there are reasons not to.

REDIRECT User:Kytti khat/sig 17:33, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I've seen it on a few wikis; it's pretty sweet. We just need to delete the local help pages.--Richard^talk 17:55, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Or move them temporarily to be edited back into the shared help, right?

REDIRECT User:Kytti khat/sig 18:48, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Shared help uses the help pages at Wikia Help, so there's not much of a need for local help pages. Though we can still keep them it sounds like, according to Help:Shared Help.--Richard^talk 18:54, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

|

Bureaucrats

It seems we are down to a single active 'crat, Dtm142. Now would be a good time to elect another. As being a 'crat is not for everyone, these SHOULD be self nominations. Whilst I can't speak for anyone else, I'm looking for a long-standing admin who is calm, active on the wiki and active in the community. What do other people look for in a 'crat? Anyone fancy putting a good foot forward? Hurston ^{(T # C)} 10:05, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I support of motion of having another 'crat. Several other 'crats have been inactive for a while, and I wouldn't mind seeing another active 'crat for this wiki. az ^talk 13:04, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

"long-standing admin who is calm, active on the wiki and active in the community"-Unfortunately even that seems to be becoming harder to find (not so much the level-headed part, but the long standing) many of our admins have lapsed into inactivity and the majority of those active, though good at their jobs, are still quite new in retrospect.--

Azaz129

^Talk ^Edits ^Contribs

15:55, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

~~I'll do it.~~ Yes, please go for it! Looking at RS:ADMIN, our three oldest active admins are Chiafriend12, Amaurice, and Stinkowing. I might have missed some, but I'd support a self-nom for any of them *nudge*.

Instant Winston

^{old edits | new edits}

16:05, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

He he, actually I quite like the sound of either Hurston or Amaurice as 'crats.--

Azaz129

^Talk ^Edits ^Contribs

16:08, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Hmmmm... I would really want Karlis to be a crat, but, again, he's a bit new. Butterman62 (talk) 16:43, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Whoever is nominated for b'crat must have a deep understanding of policy and most show that he or she is unflappable and even-handed and stays cool, calm and collected in tense situations.--Diberville 17:26, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

While I would normally step forward for something like this, I'm afraid I'm not cut out for the job. I have been learning to stay calm under pressure since Halloween, so maybe this would be a viable chance for me to prove my maturity. But regardless of the circumstances, I personally think that this would make me feel a bit unnerved, since I'm known for my hyperactivity. As for activity on the Wiki, however, I'm actually willing to learn new things that could help the wiki (like some of the terminology I don't currently understand), so that may be a plus.

In fact, would it be a good idea for me to try a self-nomination for 'cratship so that I could see what areas of wiki-wisdom I need to hear? (edit: and how do I make a RfB-nomination? The same way as an RfA?)https://i.imgur.com/7kyt1iT.gif --WINE OF GOOD HEALTH _{(Actually Stinko)}

Go for it, Stinko. Same as RFA, except the box on the main RFA page that links to your RFB has "yes" instead of "no" under "bureaucrat".

Instant Winston

^{old edits | new edits}

22:01, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Does it have to be a self-nomination? --User:5chidori/Christmas 20:59, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

No, I believe they just would prefer to see a person step up and say their ready, rather than have another do it for them. (Though it really has no bearing on my own judgement).--

Azaz129

^Talk ^Edits ^Contribs

02:25, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

It is not necessary for it to be a self-nomination, but the reason that I suggested this is because it shouldn't be taken on lightly, and the person has to want to do it. If you want to nominate someone, I would suggest at the very least talking to them first and making sure that they would accept the nomination.

Hurston ^{(T # C)} 09:27, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

We will probably need at least 2 or 3 more crats. This wiki really needs more crats. One just isn't cutting it. I think Chia or Amaurice would make great crats. Amaurice especially since I see him as being the most mature and responsible person on this wiki. File:Prayer.gif Sir Lenehan File:Smite.PNG 05:46, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I would agree with 2 more. A total of 3 active 'crats would be a good number to have.

Hurston ^{(T # C)} 09:27, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Now we have a shiny new 'crat, and Whiplash seems to be back (for now), I think we can consider this dealt with for the time being.

Hurston ^{(T # C)} 14:53, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Category: Images needing to be cropped

I think we need a category of Images needing to be cropped because theres so many uncropped images. I came up with a template that could be used:

Mock-up of an image needing cropping.

This image needs to be Cropped
Certain images on the RuneScape wiki normally are cropped to only show what is intended. This image, however, is not. Please upload a new version of this image to ony show what is intended. Please go to the Image maintenance project page for more information.
If a replacement image is uploaded under a new name, replace this template with a speedy deletion tag.

It would be a whole lot easier to find uncropped images. Anyone agree? --— ^E n _ig^ma 16:31, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Looks nice. You said "many".. roughly, how many are there? az ^talk 17:22, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Im not sure. I bet there's quite a few, though. Click the random article a few times. My guess is 1 in every 15 images is uncropped. With thousands of images, thats actually quite a lot. Theres no wy to know for sure because we don't have this category --— ^E n _ig^ma 22:04, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Image:Glitchinbank.jpg|Here is an example of an uncropped image. It makes you want to puke, doesn't it? --— ^E n _ig^ma 22:19, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

There are an incredible number of detail item images (copied from the GE DB) that have lots of unnecessary white space around them causing the text in the articles to flow awkwardly around them. With that being the style (having a detail image in the upper left corner, while the inventory image is in the infobox) I have to agree this template is a good addition to the roster, especially for those that aren't comfortable editing images.

REDIRECT User:Kytti khat/sig 05:05, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

New Wiki theme for 2009

I was just thinking..

The year 2009 is approaching quite fast, and there had been talks about changing the Wiki theme a couple of months back.

Shall we organise a "competition" (for lack of a better term) to design a new theme for this wiki? We have about -5587 days to go till the new year.

p.s. We have 2 main skins which may need to be updated: Monobook and the default skin. az ^talk 09:05, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I like that idea. The wiki really needs a unique theme, and some people here really have the skills to make a good one.

Instant Winston

^{old edits | new edits}

23:58, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Some are already at RuneScape:Theme.--Richard^talk 22:27, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Removal of two item disambiguation pages

It's a simple idea and I just wish to see if there is a general consensus in support of it. Basically, we remove those disambiguation pages with two items, redirect it to the most likely item and insert on that articles page "X redirects here. For Y, see Z". It's faster and saves one extra click for most people and for the others, it's the same amount of clicks.--Diberville 17:44, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Strong Support - Per Diberville. I've always hated two item disambiguation pages. Most of them have one item that would be searched more than the other, so it's annoying having to wait for both pages to load. User:C Teng/sig 21:26, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Support Better to have a 50% chance of having to click again to find the article you wanted instead of 100%. Leevclarke ^talk http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb290/leevclarke/RuneScape/Max%20Bulldog/Max_logo_mini.png http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb290/leevclarke/RuneScape/bulldog_puppy.png 02:59, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Support - That makes sense, I assume you already have a few in mind. Hurston ^{(T # C)} 09:26, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment - Don't go nuts on this concept and make it a life mission to kill every single one of these pages in this wiki, but I don't see anything wrong with eliminating disambiguation pages like is being suggested here. Use common sense here as well. I don't see why a "vote" on this really has to take place either.... just do it! This is something easily reversed and doesn't require any administrative assistance... in other words, any regular contributor to this wiki can perform these actions. --Robert Horning 12:17, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Well there is no "vote" since the wiki is not a democracy. However, history has demonstrated such as in the "Tally" fiasco that these types of small changes can lead to considerable trouble by some users so I'm nipping this possible problem in the bud by getting a general consensus before starting.--Diberville 15:56, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I generally support this idea, however care should be taken to ensure that a disambigulation that has only two items is not lacking a tertiary prior to conversion.

REDIRECT User:Kytti khat/sig 02:22, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

New Category for "Best Armour"

We need to have a new category for "Best Armour", we have 20(out of the 49 pages at the time of this writing) pages that need a category(Special:UncategorizedPages). I can not think of a good name for this category, but it would be a sub-category of "Armour". These pages are included in Armour. - TehKittyCat 02:11, 7 December 2008 (UTC).

The Pages in Question

Armour/FTP Magic attack
Armour/FTP Magic defence
Armour/FTP Melee attack
Armour/FTP Melee defence
Armour/FTP Prayer
Armour/FTP Ranged attack
Armour/FTP Ranged defence
Armour/FTP Strength
Armour/Magic armour
Armour/Magic attack
Armour/Magic defence
Armour/Melee armour
Armour/Melee attack
Armour/Melee defence
Armour/Prayer
Armour/Ranged armour
Armour/Ranged attack
Armour/Ranged defence
Armour/Strength
Armour/Summoning defence

Possible Names(Suggest them here)

Best Armour in the Game - TehKittyCat 02:13, 7 December 2008 (UTC).
High bonus stat armour
Categorised Armour - TehKittyCat 03:31, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Disagree with creating "Best Armour"(Reasons why here)

Commentary

these don't appear to all be "Best", namely of these three:

Armour/Ranged armour
Armour/Ranged attack
Armour/Ranged defence

only 2 are of the higest ratings of stat.

REDIRECT User:Kytti khat/sig 02:51, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

If you are stuck for options, I can't see any reason why they can't all be put in Category:Armour. I don't think they are meant to be full pages in themselves anyway, just transcluded into other pages so that the information is not duplicated. Hurston ^{(T # C)} 16:02, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I will add them all to Category:Armour. - TehKittyCat 21:38, 12 December 2008 (UTC).

MediaWiki:Tips

I keep trying to think of some tips to put into this widget's page but i keep drawing a blank. Anyone have any tips they think might go good here?

REDIRECT User:Kytti khat/sig 03:05, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Dates n' stuffs

Okay. One thing I noticed while random page toggling was the amount of dates there are. I know that some are important and they chronicle important events, but really. Are things like this really necessary? It should all be condensed into a timeline by year (at least). The current system is too sporadic. Any thoughts/comments/ideas? Lia§ly^liaison 03:25, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm unclear on how you feel it is sporadic. You should've seen the number of Exchange: entries that used to come up before they were moved to there own name space. My instinct is you just got unlucky with your random pages, rarely do i see a date page come up., besides there are less than 366 date pages (which is the max possible) and over 10,000 articles, so your chances of getting even one should be rather low. Maybe the random page feature could be modified to skip certain categories. One thing I tire of seeing is random images of now outdated Price charts for the Grand Exchange Market Watch. Hopefully when those in the know get a break from there various schoolings (uni, etc) we can implement some of these things. I catch on rather quick on these things, but virtually never know where to start so i usually wait for someone to point me in the right direction.

REDIRECT User:Kytti khat/sig 05:05, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Well. I guess I was slightly over reacting, because I had just reached a date page three times in a row, but I stand by my previous statement. The dates should be condensed into a single year page with the updates written up and down. Lia§ly^liaison 12:47, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Disagree - I think the dates are also important. See 9 December for example. It has events from several years, and that type of information that cannot be obtained elsewhere, as the user has to look through several articles (i.e. 2008, 2007, 2004 and 2003) if the "date" pages are gone. By having a "date" article, the events from several years can be condensed/summarised into a single page. I know certain pages only have single entries, but given time it will expand. Ever wondered what updates occured on significant dates such as 1 April? That's why we have "date" articles.

Just for your information, "date" pages have already been summarised into "year" articles. For example, 2008 and 2007 are articles which highlights the events for the particular year. We have "year" articles dating back to 1999 or 1998. So the issue of condensing pages into a year timeline is moot. az ^talk 05:48, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Automatically remove street price from every item page; Bot flag requested.

I wish to automatically remove the old street price field from every item page. I have written a bot and have done 60 successful test edits(I only had one problem with it creating an \n on every page, but I have since fixed that). This bot is written in python and uses pywikipedia. The source code can be found here. This bot would run for one time only, although I may ask for permission to do other jobs with the bot later on. This bot would run on TehKittyBot, a user I have created just for running as a bot and I am the only one who will be able to access it. The street price field in Template:Infobox_Item was removed shortly after the Grand Exchange was created and the exchange field replaced its use. Many old articles still have this field(around 1950 pages), and it has been said that this field can be removed from those articles in the template's talk. My bot has 2 operation modes 'assisted', where I check every edit, and 'auto', where the bot automatically says yes to the changes. Currently the bot has been running in 'assisted' and doing about 1 edit per minute. With the bot flag I will run in 'auto' mode and do 1 edit at most every 15 seconds. - TehKittyCat 04:58, 13 December 2008 (UTC).

I have upgraded my bot's code to use command line args instead of manually editing the code to change the pages. For example categories use -cat:Items and pages use -pages:Bow,Animal_skull.Auto(-mode:auto) mode is now the default and it has a command line arg to switch to assisted(-mode:assisted). - TehKittyCat 18:41, 13 December 2008 (UTC).

The amount of pages left with the field is about 950 pages, according to my more accurate search query(I removed duplicates and anything not in the mainspace). - TehKittyCat 22:02, 13 December 2008 (UTC).

Is there a reason you are removing the street prices here? The field has been removed from active use on the individual item pages, but I fail to see the urgency of removing it from all of the pages where it has been used. --Robert Horning 02:27, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

That is a good question to ask someone requesting a bot flag, like me, so I will try and answer both sides of this and in detail.

According to Template:Infobox_Item/doc#Removed_field(s) this field should be removed from old articles, but no where in that article is it said to be official policy.
Only 1/4 of the item articles still have it and only about 1/3-1/2 did before it was removed from some articles.
If street price was brought back, we would need to insert it in most of the item pages again any way.
I do not see the value in keeping it for historical prices, and if someone wanted to see them they could just click on a revision before I removed street price, since I use "Removing the no longer used field, street." as my edit summary.
I agree there is no urgency, but we might as well do it sometime, and better at once than finally finishing it at a much later time.
To do this fast it would be too fast for recent changes, so I would need a bot flag, even editing once every 2 minutes takes up a lot of recent changes on slower times and on fast times when it is harder to catch vandalism it would be even harder.

I have other reasons, but they are based on scenarios too hypothetical. I will admit had not really thought about my reasons until you asked this question, and may still not be good enough reasons. - TehKittyCat 19:07, 14 December 2008 (UTC).

Respecting classified information

Discuss this on RuneScape:Yew Grove/Respecting classified information. Dtm142 01:28, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

NPC Store Survey

I'm making a call to all participants on this wiki to help out in a large but focused effort to help improve the overall quality of a certain class of articles: articles about NPC stores.

What I'm hoping can be done here is to improve the consistency of information at all of the stores about the items offer for sale there, and to "raise the bar" in terms of the overall quality of the information which is presented in these articles. Some stores are simply missing articles, others are horribly written with missing or out of date information, and others are simply of outstanding quality that needs to be at least reviewed and linked to other content on the wiki. Perhaps some even deserve to be nominated for an article of the month feature.

I'm also looking to create navigation boxes based on location (aka linking all of the stores in Varrock together with a common navigation template) as well as by type (such as all of the stores that sell weapons).

Every single article about NPC stores can be improved in some manner, and it might be useful to put together a team to really look at these hard and put some depth into them.

This project is open to both F2P players and members, as there is work to be done just about everywhere. If you are new to the Runescape Wiki, this would be a fantastic opportunity for you to join into developing content where you can work with some "seasoned veterans" of the wiki process and work toward a common goal. It can even be fun trying to explore the various little corners of the game to find undocumented content and help bring it forward where it can help everybody.

If you are interested, please sign the page at The WikiGuild Proposal Page and join in the discussion and effort. Even identifying what stores there are in the game can be incredibly helpful here, much less actually documenting what is in those stores. --Robert Horning 01:35, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Desysoping Stinkowing

There are a lot of good and great administrators on this wiki. Unfortunately, like every other Wikia, there are few that have some foibles and others who's behaviour is so egregious, that their lip service to the regulations or the overall juvenility in their discourse harms the wiki and lowers its standing. Regrettably, Stinkowing is one of the latter and should have his administrator privileges revoked immediately.

First of all, when becoming an admin, Stinkowing signed this contract: I, Stinkowing, accept this nomination for adminship. I have read the policies concerning administrators. I realize that this nomination may fail. If I do get community consensus, I promise not to abuse my powers because I realize that this is a serious offence and if the community finds that I have done so, my powers will be revoked and in extreme cases I could be given a community ban.

There are several past incidents that I'm sure many of you can innumerate which would give cause for the desysoping of this user but I will focus on three current events.

First of all, I would refer all of you to the user pages of Stinkowing. On his talk page, he has on top:

This page in a nutshell:
What do these three things have in common?

Civility

No personal image/"why was my pge deleted?" questions

Not being an absolute noob

Answer: They all are rules to my talk pages. Don't break them.

First of all, a user can not invent rules for their own page. Second, as an administrator, your job is to answer no personal image, why was my page deleted and other "noob" questions. This is required from you. You also don't block, you don't even rollback an edit if it was made in good faith. However on this page, beyond the terrible lack of tact, he states that he might on occasion block people who's edits were wrong but accidental. This is a minor detail. For a major one, I will now refer you to User:Stinkowing/A_message_to_EVERYONE!. I was trying to copy the most salient parts but that entire essay states that he will brazenly ignore or violate this wikis rules because some stuff annoys him. If for nothing else, this should be enough to remove his admin priviliges.

Next up is an incident that happened a few days ago. The gist of it is that someone was making a good faith edit and his article was speedy deleted twice. He was frustrated and posted "if your going to be like that i will forget you are here" on Stinkowing's page. Instead of simply repeating the event, you can read it directly here: User_talk:JJ9630#Being_stubborn. This is yet another example of immaturity and abuse of power.

Now for the proverbial straw that broke the camels back. There is a debate here as to the inclusion of classified information. I'm sure most of you read parts of it if not participated in it. There were two seemingly diametrically opposed and entrenched viewpoints as to this topic and consensus seemed impossible. But there has just been a breakthrough with both sides seeming to accept a compromise and tempers were indeed calming. And then, Stinkowing decides to post this:

FUCKING HELL!! What is WRONG with you people?! Jagex does NOT want their private information disclosed AT ALL! PAY ATTENTION, PEOPLE! This is the WORST pointless arguement since the Tavvy crap! DECIDE SOMETHING BEFORE I GO NUTS!!!'

and later:

Hahaha, pathetic. As for those of you (like Karlis, Chia, and Rendova) who are disagreeing with the bunch of reckless fools who want our beautiful wiki shut down, you know what you're doing, at least.

Any of these single examples is enough to have his rights removed and this is a clear cut case. Stinkowing has shown chronic disrespect for others, a flaunting of the rules he is supposed to uphold, abuse of power, inability to control his emotions and general immaturity. Because of this, at the very least his administration privileges should be revoked and a temporary block should perhaps be instated.

However, before any discussion takes place, I think we should give Stinkowing' a chance to state his case. And an important note: if Stinkowing agrees and is cogent of his lacunae or disagrees but accedes to the end result regardless, he can voluntarily step down immediately bring to immediate term this discussion.--Diberville 16:37, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Seems like pretty unacceptable behavior. File:Gnomegoggleswithcap.png TEbuddy 23:44, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

grits teeth* Thank you, Diberville. (to Tebuddy) Stay out of this until you know my view.

Let's get straight to the point: I've gone insane. I've just spent the last TEN hours at my mom's workplace (an elementary school) moving every last bit of her room down, and I'm BEYOND exhausted I got on the computer for some R&R...and THIS is what I see?! THIS is the rest and relaxation I GET?! Diber, what makes YOU so able to decide my fate? You're not a judge, thus, YOU alone cannot decide what happens to me. That is up to the entire active community! (also, WHY did you bold my name almost EVERY time)

Beyond that, I'm sick of this. I'm sick of the Wiki, I'm sick of the users, I'm sick of the vandals...EVERYTHING!! I wouldn't care if I was PERMABANNED BY EVERY OTHER SYSOP, I'm just SO sick of all the shit I put up with EACH AND EVERY DAY!! "Why did you delete my image?" "Why are you so rude?" WHY DO I CARE? If I'm not feeling good enough to even answer those problems, I doubt I'm GOOD ENOUGH for any of you. And that's JUST ONLINE! OFFLINE IS EVEN WORSE! I've got a grandmother with blood vessel problems in her head, a workaholic father who we're pretty sure is going half-deaf, a stressed out mother, financial difficultes, a religiously overzealous sister and brother-in-law, a new President-elect (who is not ready for the job) to worry about...and it just KEEPS GOING! The following is my current beliefs. If I mention you and you don't like what I said, TOUGH. Life hates me, and I'm going all-out here.

I think that the Yew Grove is nothing, but trouble. We have the wiki set against itself in the motion to reveal confidental, and the numbskulls who say it's OK to post what Jagex doesn't want known leave their poor reasons unexplained.

I think Dtm is indeed too draconian to the point of seeming like a cabal-leader, and is overly blunt with things.

I think Chiafriend is a goof-off and needs to get his priorities straight.

I think old editors like Eucarya and Vimes are wusses and gave up because of their laziness and uncaring attitude (have you HONESTLY looked at Eucarya's page? HE'S AN IDIOT FOR GIVING UP!).

I think Tebuddy and Earthere are nosy and need to stay out of other's ways of doing things.

I think Btzkillerv is a troublemaker, even though he's TRYING to help the wiki.

I think the forums are SHITTY, and need to be removed entirely.

I think that revoking my sysopship will hand the victory over to Total Rune. This in itself is HUMILIATING!

I think that Diberville needs to not judge people and seemingly deliver the verdict (AKA my death sentence)

I think that the wiki is at such a new low, it's below Hell. Vandals are arriving every day, and I've blocked countless amounts that weren't blocked on-sight. The community lies between breaking the law and keeping the peace currently, and I'm not dealing with that.

MY DECISION

Diber, I've had my say.

I would like my sysopship temporarily (up to a few years, and at LEAST three months) removed.

I would like to keep op status on IRC.

I am taking a long, long, LONG wiki-break, only stopping by IRC and to look up RuneScape quest guides. I don't know when I'll be back.

My only wish is that I am not banned; that would be more than just a slap in the face to me. Oh, make it TWO wishes: DO NOT ANNOUNCE THIS ON THE MAIN PAGE FOR ALL THE WORLD TO SEE. Keep this here, archive it, do whatever. I'm feeling beyond shitty now...suicidal, to an extent. I don't want to die, but I'm not taking abuse and disrespect anymore - I'm just not. If abuse and disrespect is what sysops have to feel, then I don't want any part of it. I just want to be free of any burdens that my life gives me...

Autism sucks. Depression hurts. I suffer.

--Stinkowing

o/t:Yer autistic? Damn, you can phrase things better than I can. WWTDD? 00:51, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

I am a pretty nosy person, but this is not an office where matters are discussed by you and your boss. This is a wiki where every decision is made by the community. This sounds cold, but stop acting like such a big victim. Your situation here is the result of your own behavior. As for your entire post, I think thats the reason that you don't deserve admin. Have a good break, be healthier and less stressed when you choose to return. File:Gnomegoggleswithcap.png TEbuddy 00:58, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

The explanation in fact serves as the epitome of the problem of your administratorship. You demand respect, do nothing to try and earn it and in fact show a mark disrespect to others and still condition that the rules bend around you. You have massively violated the rules that you agreed you would respect when gaining sysop and now expect that sysop to be given back to you whenever you wish. I appreciate your willingly giving up admin rights but if you wish to have it back, you will have to go through another Request for administratorship. You have given many reasons for your behaviour and I sympathize with your real life problems but this still does not change the fact that you have broken the rules for both editors and for administrators. And still, you ask that the rules be curtailed especially for you. I ask you why should we again ignore the rules and allow you to keep op status on IRC when only admins have op rights and that you have yourself banned people on IRC when they annoyed you and at other times indulged in that same jejune behaviour for which you yourself banned them? Why should the wiki make a special case for you and not announce your dysoping when we have done so in every other case, most recently, PureMexican?

Finally I ask, if someone had treated you the way you have treated others in the above mentioned examples and violated established protocols, do you even ask yourself whether or not you personally would ban that person? The rules apply equally to everyone here, be they anon IP or bureaucrat, all editors are equal and will be rewarded and punished summarily equally for their transgressions and contributions.

I think that a one month ban would be appropriate, not just for your violation of the rules but much more importantly, it would give you a guaranteed wikibreak that will allow you to cool off and to get things into perspective.--Diberville 01:56, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Per Stinko's decision, I have left Sannse a note to desysop.--

Azaz129

^Talk ^Edits ^Contribs

02:12, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Adding Forumadmin to UserRights.

With the recent requests for the forumadmin permission, I was wondering if it is possible to add the following lines to the LocalSettings file. (I’m assuming that each wiki has it’s own LocalSettings.php, and that staff are willing to edit it.)

$wgGroupPermissions['bureaucrat']['forumadmin'] = true; # Gives bureaucrats forum adminship. (optional, with consensus)

$wgGroupPermissions['forumadmin']['forumadmin'] = true; # Gives forumadmins forum adminship.

$wgAddGroups['bureaucrat'] = array( 'forumadmin', 'current_groups...' ); # Bureaucrats can add forumadmin.

$wgRemoveGroups['bureaucrat'] = array( 'forumadmin', 'current_groups...' ); # Bureaucrats can remove forumadmin.

Adding these lines would prevent having to call a staff member over every time someone needs the forumadmin permission, and would also get forumadmin to appear on the UserRights page again. Remember, all forumadmins can do over sysops is create stickies, announcements, and polls on the forums.

REDIRECT User:Laser Dragon 03:47, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

If it's possible I support. It'd make things a bit easier. Andrew ^talk 04:00, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

We can't do anything with LocalSettings; only Wikia staff can fiddle around with that.--Richard^talk 04:11, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

I was planning on getting consensus here, and then taking it to staff.

REDIRECT User:Laser Dragon 04:15, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

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Sub-header1	Link • Link • Link • Link • Link
Sub-header2	Very long list of links • Very long list of links • Very long list of links • Very long list of links • Very long list of links • Very long list of links • Very long list of links • Very long list of links • Very long list of links • Very long list of links • Very long list of links
Herbs	Snake weed • Ardrigal • Sito foil • Volencia moss • File:Clean Rogue's purse.png Rogue's purse • Goutweed
Link without sub-header • Link without sub-header • Link without sub-header • Link without sub-header • Link without sub-header

Total level (f2p): 603 ^{Total level (p2p): 693}
99	----	----
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64	267	546
As of 3 November 2008